The US invaded Iraq.
The thought is stuck in my head today. I keep asking people if they realize it was 20 years ago and I keep getting weird looks. Hell, one of my coworkers was only 2 years old, another wouldn't even be around for another year.
I just... I dunno. It feels different today for me for some reason.
In reply to Mr_Asa :
Sure, I was 8 when we invaded, but all I've really known for most of my childhood was troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.
It was just a part of life, I guess.
It took me several years to realize I was wrong to support that invasion.
I didn't understand the why then, and I still don't understand it now.
johndej said:
Outkast was always prescient in more ways than one.
RevRico said:I didn't understand the why then, and I still don't understand it now.
Several years after the invasion I got really deep into some of the writing coming out about it and the experiences.
One book that was in the group, but apart from it was Thomas Ricks' Fiasco. Most in depth read about how it happened. At times it almost felt like a day-by-day accounting of the backroom deals and E36 M3 that led us to it.
Drier than I like, but if you want to know how it happened, its the first book I'd reach for.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:It took me several years to realize I was wrong to support that invasion.
We shared some threads on this topic over at CC.com. I was pretty consistent in my opposition, the biggest reason being that it seemed clear that our government A - didn't have great intelligence, and B - was willing to cherry pick and otherwise manipulate what information we did have.
Looking back, I find it all rather depressing, and more than a footnote in the slow decline of American influence and prosperity.
Another example of good intentions ruined by military leadership in both cases.
I've done something I didn't think I ever would: I've forgiven W. Now I should say, it was easier for me than many because I didn't lose any loved ones. I think W's soul is intact. I really don't think he had malicious intent. Cheney, Rumsfeld, all that cabal surrounding him - they can rot in berking hell. A friend of mine at work had a son who was in the Army trying to get fast-track citizenship. He was sent and my friend nearly had a nervous breakdown. Fortunately his boy made it home. Got his US citizenship too.
I'm so old that my first thought was the OP was referring to Operation Desert Storm ..which was over 32 years ago.
Different Bush, same country.
volvoclearinghouse said:I'm so old that my first thought was the OP was referring to Operation Desert Storm ..which was over 32 years ago.
Different Bush, same country.
I remember that one very well. I was sitting in drafting class when they announced the call up. The fellow beside me had just gone through basic at Parris Island a few months before and he was absent. Then about half way through the class he walked in in uniform and said "Mr. Tuhowlski I'm sorry I'm going to miss the rest of the semester but I'm shipping out." Mr. T, asked how he felt about it and the kid said, "I'm not going to lie Mr. Tuhowlski, I am scared E36 M3less." Mr. T looked at him and said "as you should be."
In the rear view mirror that whole thing looks like a cake walk. But at the time it was really scary there for awhile. We had good leadership though. All the way from the top down. I'm not sure we'd be able to pull that off today.
I know too many people who lived this and were not impacted in a positive way by all of this. Being on a submarine and in relative safety, I was one of the more fortunate. Believe it or not, I told my fellow service members I didn't trust Bush and I was a lifelong Texan until last year. If you can't run a baseball team, you don't need to try an entire country.
volvoclearinghouse said:I'm so old that my first thought was the OP was referring to Operation Desert Storm ..which was over 32 years ago.
Different Bush, same country.
I remember that, too- going to the TV room in the dorm to watch coverage. Grad school at the time.
As for 20 years ago, I also very much remember having a conversation with my friend at work about the WMD's they claimed were there, and if they didn't find them. I think I suspected that they had bad intel, too. Really too bad, as it changed our focus from Afghanistan- and that (theoretically) could have been finished a lot quicker had we just maintained focus.
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:It took me several years to realize I was wrong to support that invasion.
We shared some threads on this topic over at CC.com. I was pretty consistent in my opposition, the biggest reason being that it seemed clear that our government A - didn't have great intelligence, and B - was willing to cherry pick and otherwise manipulate what information we did have.
Looking back, I find it all rather depressing, and more than a footnote in the slow decline of American influence and prosperity.
I recall you took quite a beating in those days on CC, too. How things, change, eh?
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:It took me several years to realize I was wrong to support that invasion.
That statement shows a lot of character. So often I encountered people who denied their previous support for the war.
I remember really catching hell for not being overtly anti Arab (the culture and people, nothing to do with politics).
As someone who spends their career rehabilitating disabled Veterans, not to mention remember Iraq 1 and was in Active Duty when Iraq 2 came about, I remembered and did some counseling today about it. Don't get me started on toxic burn pits.
It's crazy how many wars we get into that we were the bad guys.
volvoclearinghouse said:I'm so old that my first thought was the OP was referring to Operation Desert Storm ..which was over 32 years ago.
Different Bush, same country.
My first thought was "you're 10 years off" so it's not just you
I wasn't as versed in current events back then though I was at prime protesting age having just started college, but even I thought something was fishy. We just went into Afghanistan to get bin Laden and then we needed to invade Iraq because War on Terror™?
That's when I noticed politics getting nasty. Everyone who didn't support the invasion was painted as siding with terrorists.
Wow, 20 years ago? That went by fast.
While I won't go into what I thought about the war here, I will go into the moment I felt it was real.
Thanksgiving Eve, either 2004 or 2005, my friends and I were all out in our hometown drinking at one of the local bars, as most other college-age kids were doing. It's truly one of the greatest party nights of the year. We were catching up with old buddies and we bumped into our friend who we'll call Kevin.
Kevin was a classic goofball, and tons of fun to be around. I used to work with him at a grocery store, and he was absolutely hilarious to work with. Like a lot of other kids after 9/11, he joined the armed services and ended up in the Marines. He was among the 1st to be shipped to Iraq. This was his first time on leave. Right off, we could tell he wasn't the same guy we knew. He was still joking around, but we could tell something was off.
As we're all throwing 'em back, he says, "Hey guys, wanna hear a funny story? I was in this little Iraqi town called Fallujah, and my team got into a firefight inside a house, and I'm the only one who survived! Me! Everyone else is dead!" And he immediately broke down, right there in a crowded bar. We got him outside to get some air, and he was inconsolable. That right there was when I learned 1st hand what PTSD and Survivor's Guilt were. It was the first time that it hit home that yeah, all of this stuff I'm seeing on the news is real. My friends are going over there and this is happening to them. And they weren't alone; the same story was happening to people across the country, and it continues to this day. The innocence was gone.
That's something I'll never forget until the day I die.
In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :
Well my first CC handle was Kreb - till I got banned for drifting too far away from the party line, after which I returned as Krom. You are right about how in time almost all the main contributors pulled away from the neocon position.
In its prime that was a hell of a forum. It was the only place I've been to where one would receive a verbal beatdown that was presented with such artistry that you practically wanted to ask for seconds. And there was intellectual integrity. As one of the few resident libs if I made an intelligent, well considered argument even the drill sergeants would concede the point. Unfortunately the last time I went there it was more like a hangout for the crusty old bastards who didn't have sense enough to get out while the getting was good.
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:We shared some threads on this topic over at CC.com. I was pretty consistent in my opposition, the biggest reason being that it seemed clear that our government A - didn't have great intelligence, and B - was willing to cherry pick and otherwise manipulate what information we did have.
There are plenty of similarities applicable to many issues today. Bring them up here and people will treat just like CC.com and want to ban you for it here too. The only thing that changes is the event being used to manipulate the average person. It's all the same scam to gain money and power for the few at the expense of many. Don't dare mention it until 20 years after the fact until everyone can agree on it though.....
Watched the documentary "Ranger" last week. The irony of the US entering a sovereign nation with a bullE36 M3 justification was not lost.
I also found it to be a really sad truth about how war fighters are prepared to do one thing and then left on their own to live with the consequences. I imagine the Army is not thrilled with the message.
I was in college at the time. Previously I'd considered the military as an avenue for after graduation, and quickly decided against it.
It should have been obvious to any casual student of history that Iraq, like much of the region, had been haphazardly artificially carved out by European powers following the first World War. That it shoved together a bunch of disparate tribes that had fought each other for centuries. That the only thing that kept it in relative peace was totalitarian rule by either a foreign imperial power or a local dictator.
Removing that dictator wasn't going to be hard, and he was a horrible human being. But the only outcome was either going to be anarchy and brutal civil/tribal warfare and/or stepping in to fill the power vacuum like the European powers that had originally drawn the boundaries in the region.
In reply to j_tso :
I wasn't really following politics or world events back then, but the whole thing struck me as a "bait & switch" tactic at the time.
I also agree with A 401 CJ. I think W is generally a good human, who got pulled into his family's business of politics. He seems to show this in some of his more candid interviews & I think he also expresses it through his artwork.
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