2023 Family Hauler - No Vans No Frames

My family is looking for a new get go. 

My wife has nixxed a minivan, much to my chagrin. She can still be convinced of the added size for a 7-Passenger SUV, though. 

For her, the Miata is the answer...at least in terms of size. She always will prefer the smallest vehicle that can do that job.  Hence her love for her Fit. Unfortunately, I have found that many modern vehicles limit leg room for the driver when car seats are behind them and we've got two. The Mazda 5 would be a winner if it was still made.  To her, it still felt like a compact car, but I liked its functionality. Our Fit is too small, the Prius too small, the truck too big, old and thirsty.

So with that, the criteria:

- Family of 4, with desire to haul an additional 2 adults occasionally (a few times a year)

- Enough rear seat room for an adult to sit with two car seats. So wider. 

- Enough room for front seats to be slid the whole way back without pinching kiddos feet - ideally more length is better.

- No body on frame SUVs or even large SUVs like Excursion, Tahoe, etc. Wife wants a tall wagon, not a truck.

- 27 MPG highway minimum. Would prefer 33+.

- Current Model Platforms, not older than 4 years, less than 80k miles, new is fine (because used cars cost almost the same amount.)

- Budget is about $36k new, $20k used. Apparently if I buy in California I can take advantage of steep discounts on Hybrids and PHEVs. 

- AWD and Ground Clearance for gravel road travel preferred. 

Questions:

What's the deal with VW right now? I've heard that after diesel gate they offered some good incentives. 

Fly and drive from California - a cheaper way to get a PHEV? I recently saw someone who claimed they got $15k in credits for a Prius Prime. 

Highlander Hybrid seems like it'd be a good pick as they've been on the market for a few years now and it meets most of the criteria - the problem is the used prices are nearly that of new prices. Grand Highlander looks interesting but I doubt it'll be in our budget without STEEP tax credits and incentives.

The CVRP only applies to CA residents.  I got nothing on finding a magic Tardis that is bigger on the inside except maybe Ford Flex.

California residents who purchase or lease a new battery, plug-in hybrid, or fuel cell electric vehicle may be eligible for a rebate of up to $7,000. This program is limited to eligible vehicles and only applies to consumers under the specified income threshold ($150,000 for single filers; $204,000 for heads of household; and $300,000 for joint filers)

Ford Flex? 

Tesla Y? 

Wrangler 4xe?

Honestly, I found the latest crop of CUV's really nice for the task. Had a CX-5 for a rental along with CX-30 and both drove great. CX-30 would be too small for a kid though. 

My sister and aunt have a rav4. Other than the power, those drove really nice. I found them a little underpowered but that's just me. 

Really that whole class has been good from a driving POV. 

I have a lot of sympathy for your wife's preference for the smallest vehicle to do the job. There are certain RAV4s that have a third row but having a hard time finding them on AutoTrader. Otherwise, my instinct would be to get a Bolt or Bolt EUV, and use the fuel savings to rent a minivan for the limited number of times a year you need to seat six.

You know people often pitch the idea of renting a minivan whenever they are needed but honestly I've found this pretty difficult. Our local rental options are limited, and every time I've wanted to rent a minivan last minute its really expensive or just not available. 

Plus, we've already got a small car. I'm not going to buy an Bolt just because its gets better MPG than our Fit. If we're buying something, it needs to be a big step up over the current 10 year old fleet. 

The reason we're purchasing this vehicle is for daily kid hauling tasks. Which means we need that added space all the time. 

Based on my admittedly limited experience, I'd pass on the VWs unless they are under warranty. 

Honestly, you should go drive a Sienna. My wife and I were adamant that we would never own one. Then we had two kids 2 years apart. We realized early on that putting the kids into the car seats in the back of the CRV or club cab Silverado was a huge PITA. The CRV was really too small for kids in rear facing car seats and adult drivers/passengers. Some friends of ours bought a Sienna and really liked it so we decided to check one out. We wound up owning ours for 13 years and put 200k miles on it. As much as I hate to admit it, We loved it. 

If you can stand the fugly face, Toyota Highlander. I can't, so we went Explorer.

Have her try a minivan with power sliding doors. Being able to open and close the doors from the driver's seat is a wonderful thing. 

I know the new Grand Cherokees now have 3rd row seating available in them, and they're plenty big enough, and are even unibody rather than body on frame.  You *might* be able to hit your budget target with a certified used one. 

If you want to haul 4 adults + 2 kids in car seats you need 3 rows

Nearly every brand offers a 3 row CUV. The ones that will easily hit your fuel efficiency targets are all way over budget.

CX-9, Highlander, Pilot, etc will technically start just over $36k for FWD models and are rated at 27-28mpg hwy.

In reply to pheller :

We were recently shopping for a similar vehicle due to my wife's Telluride getting totaled. You are going to have a real hard time finding anything that meets that criteria. The closest would be a minivan, but that is off the list. This is the hard part...

- Family of 4, with desire to haul an additional 2 adults occasionally (a few times a year)

- Enough rear seat room for an adult to sit with two car seats. So wider. 

- Enough room for front seats to be slid the whole way back without pinching kiddos feet - ideally more length is better.

One of the larger unibody SUV's should work- Telluride/Pallisade, Atlas, or Traverse. But those are all way over budget, except maybe a used Traverse? And those are maybe just wide enough to fit an adult between two car seats. The Highlander is definitely not wide enough. My brother sold his to buy a Suburban when kid #5 arrived, he had pretty much the same criteria as you. Minus the gas mileage. And the 3rd row in a Highlander is pretty much just for kids. I think you would be best off deciding which factors are the most important to you and start there, because nothing will meet them all.

 

My wife tends to be irrational about certain things. Like, something gets in her head and no amount of sensible explanation will get it out. If you try to brute force it (like I did with our home), she might come around, but she'll hate you for forcing it. 

She has quite a bit of experience with minivans as she drove them regularly for her job back in 2010-2014. 

I think part of it is she views minivans as "the Mom chariot", as though, her purpose in life is to have kids, then carry them around in a minivan. All the STHMs we know have minivans and spend their days shuttling kids around, so that doesn't help this perception. I've told her that Id have no problems being the primary driver of the minivan, but ultimately, she needs a better vehicle for daily kid-hauling tasks, so she should be the primary driver. 

She really doesn't want a minivan, and honestly we may find ourselves years from now with two grown children never having owned a proper family vehicle just because I don't want to pay the money for a subpar vehicle. 

The weird thing is, she was completely ok with the Mazda5 - because it reminded her of her Fit. Which is cute and small. Definitely not a minivan. *eyeroll*

When I had two kids Cx5 worked great, drove similar to my Mazda3. However when we had a 3rd kid we moved to the Cx9, which drove better then the Dodge Durango that I replaced. However comparison says that the Ford Escape has more space then a Mazda Cx5.

pheller said:

My wife tends to be irrational about certain things. Like, something gets in her head and no amount of sensible explanation will get it out. If you try to brute force it (like I did with our home), she might come around, but she'll hate you for forcing it. 

 

She has quite a bit of experience with minivans as she drove them regularly for her job back in 2010-2014. 

I think part of it is she views minivans as "the Mom chariot", as though, her purpose in life is to have kids, then carry them around in a minivan. All the STHMs we know have minivans and spend their days shuttling kids around, so that doesn't help this perception. I've told her that Id have no problems being the primary driver of the minivan, but ultimately, she needs a better vehicle for daily kid-hauling tasks, so she should be the primary driver. 

 

She really doesn't want a minivan, and honestly we may find ourselves years from now with two grown children never having owned a proper family vehicle just because I don't want to pay the money for a subpar vehicle. 

 

The weird thing is, she was completely ok with the Mazda5 - because it reminded her of her Fit. Which is cute and small. Definitely not a minivan. *eyeroll*

My wife also does the thing where she wants it as small as possible and has passed on vehicles that would be perfect for her because somehow a full sized truck is bigger than a Golf *sarcasm*. It's in fact very annoying 

I'd have her test drive stuff that is bigger than she's looking for and see if she can come to her senses there, because I don't know of a TARDIS car.

I've tried to explain that externally a Sienna is not much bigger than a Highlander or a Subaru Outback. Taller, a little wider, but it uses it's "footprint" better - ie, it's a box on wheels, vs being inefficiently shaped into a small box that takes up the same space on the road. 

I also tried to reason that if we're gonna spend the money, why not get the thing that currently offers the most amount of space for its fuel efficiency - the Sienna Hybrid. We could camp in it. We could haul our kids and the neighborhoods kids. It could replace our truck. 

No dice. 

Maybe it's just a matter of sticking her in something with the kids. 

In reply to STM317 :

If you want to haul 4 adults + 2 kids in car seats you need 3 rows

Nearly every brand offers a 3 row CUV. The ones that will easily hit your fuel efficiency targets are all way over budget.

CX-9, Highlander, Pilot, etc will technically start just over $36k for FWD models and are rated at 27-28mpg hwy.
 

There are lots of three row SUV's, but they are very different in execution. They really need to be split into two groups- those with room adults in the back, and those meant only for small children. Then you have the room behind the third row. Many have cargo space or third row seating, but not both at the same time. The CX9 is a great example. It was a front runner on paper- I love the way they look and drive- but an instant no after seeing the third row and cargo area. 
 

I forgot one, the Subaru Ascent is on the large size inside, and probably the most car like driving of the bunch. Which is what crossed it off my wife's list ironically, she wanted something higher up and more truck like. I liked the car like feel to it. 
 

I just took a quick peek on auto trader, and there are some real good deals to be had on Ascents. I guess they aren't as popular as the others. Probably the closest vehicle to checking all of the boxes. 

Up to 2019 the Ford Flex and Ford Explorer are the same vehicle. The Flex is styled to seem like a wagon. The Explorer is styled and lifted to seem more "butch." 

pheller said:

Maybe it's just a matter of sticking her in something with the kids.

You should absolutely do this no matter what. Take the whole family with you for test fits. Then imagine an extra 2 adults, or try to sit between the kids' car seats, or pack things like diaper bags a stroller, etc into it while the 3rd row is up.

Looking at prices for the Subaru Ascent it does appear they aren't holding their value quite as well as the Outback. 

I can find 2019 Ascents with relatively low miles for low 20 g's. 

I like that they are turbocharged, which will be nice at elevation, even if not at the pump.  Owners seem to report 26mpg highway as the exception, not the rule, with most getting low 20's around town. 

"Liked" list so far:

Subaru Ascent

2019+ Ford Transit Connect Passenger Wagon

2020+ Ford Explorer

2015 Mazda5 (although scratched because too old).

"Nope" list:

Toyota Sienna Hybrid (along with every other Minivan on the market)

Ford Flex

In reply to pheller :

Yea, it was a bit of a surprise when I checked. We cross shopped them when we bought the Telluride in 2019. They were priced about the same new. Now the Tellurides are selling for same as they were new, three years later with 40k miles on them, while the Ascents have depreciated quite a bit. They seem like a realative bargain. 

In reply to pheller :

On the Explorer, note that the back row is narrow and only has two seats. It's 7 person max, six on some models. Back in 2019, we were waiting for this new version to come out, sure that it was the one my wife wanted. We were extremely disappointed when we tried one in person. It was many steps below the Kia or Subaru dollar for dollar. That may have evened out in the used market, but I can't fathom why they couldn't fit a real third row while most others could. 

The third row isn't super important to us, but it more easily fits the vehicle into a certain class that we want. IE, the next step up from the CRV, Rav4, etc. 

The third row would likely be used for kiddos when we're traveling with in-laws who are visiting. Or maybe my wife who is pretty small would jump back there with our oldest in a booster. 

More important is having space, comfort, enough power for a family of four to knock down 500 miles to San Diego with a few bikes on the back and the cargo area full of beach crap. 

I don't mind using my truck for those trips right now, but it's not particularly comfortable and at 220k it makes my wife nervous it'll break down in the middle of the desert. It also sucks down gas at 15mpg highway going downhill. 

In reply to pheller :

How does the desire for so much space square with your wife's desire for compact vehicles that are easy to fit places?

Something like a Rav4 hybrid would be much easier to meet your price/fuel efficiency goals and seems totally reasonable for 2 adults, 2 small kids and their stuff.