2023 Family Hauler - No Vans No Frames

Update:

We found a 2020 Subaru Ascent Limited, 39,000 miles, listed at $27k. 

We drove it. We liked it. But it would be $32k out the door. The felt like a lot of money for a car that isn't new, needed a very expensive windshield, was killing batteries while sitting on the lot for two months, and wasn't as large inside as we were hoping. Dealer said they wanted to move it, but not enough to take my $24k offer. 

Wifeheller felt like if we were going to spend that kind of money, we might as we just spring for a new car. And if we don't want to spend that kind of money, maybe we're better getting something private market where we don't need to pay dealer taxes and fees. 

I've also been pointing out the relative size of the Odyssey, Carnival, and Sienna compared to other vehicles on the road. They aren't that much bigger. In fact, the Sienna is only 7 inches longer than the Ascent. 

I've also impressed that the Toyota Sienna Hybrid is a very unique vehicle right now. It's huge, gets 36mpg, and comes with AWD. It's more space than we need, but we'd probably figure out some way of using it. 

Alternatively, we really don't need a 7-passenger vehicle, but we do want a LONG vehicle. A vehicle that has lots of space between the back seat and front seat, or lots of width. She doesn't like the Ford Edge, but that's on the right path. She felt like the Ascent was still impacted by car seats behind front row, and was disapointed a vehicle that big would still suffer from that. She also knows a van likely won't have that problem. 

I concur on the Ascent feeling cramped in a test-drive of it as well.  That, and I just am not keen on the Subaru seats.  I know its subjective, but I've never found them very comfortable or supportive, compared to other Asian car manufacturers... 

A friend has a non-hybrid awd Sienna.  He takes it everywhere, it's a beast in snow.  Really impressive, considering it's a hefty one.  

pheller said:

I've also impressed that the Toyota Sienna Hybrid is a very unique vehicle right now. It's huge, gets 36mpg, and comes with AWD. It's more space than we need, but we'd probably figure out some way of using it. 

Alternatively, we really don't need a 7-passenger vehicle, but we do want a LONG vehicle. A vehicle that has lots of space between the back seat and front seat, or lots of width. She doesn't like the Ford Edge, but that's on the right path. She felt like the Ascent was still impacted by car seats behind front row, and was disapointed a vehicle that big would still suffer from that. She also knows a van likely won't have that problem. 

(insert evil laugh here.  )

Next question:

Which minivans have center consoles that stretch from the dash to the behind the front seats? 

My wife hates minivans that have the gap between the dash and the console. She likes a "spine" that the new Sienna has. 

For example, she'd prefer the console of the Carnival or Sienna (higher, more continuous with dash) over the Odyssey that has the big gap and lowered front bin area. 

In reply to pheller :

Just curious how it works out there, you said "Dealer taxs." What are dealer taxs?

Here in OK you register a newly purchased vehicle (new or used) at the DMV. So it doesn't matter if I buy a $30k car from a dealer, or a $30k vehicle in a private party sale. The sales tax/registration/etc at the DMV are EXACTLY the same because it's based on purchase price. 

Now dealer fees, sure there is a doc fee, but every dealer does that. 

In reply to pheller :

My 2017 Grand Caravan GT has a center console that extends almost to the rear edge of the front seats.  Somewhat similar to the Toyota above, although the Dodge has the shifter more conveniently mounted on the dash.  For regular driving, I use it all the time... when I'm camping it bugs me as it prevents me from being able to easily get from the front seat to the back of the van (I've done it, but at 52 it ain't easy). 

In reply to pheller :

That's funny about the console. The thing my wife misses most about her old Sienna was that empty spot ahead of the console. It had a tray that was perfect for her purse. 

z31maniac said:

In reply to pheller :

Just curious how it works out there, you said "Dealer taxs." What are dealer taxs?

Here in OK you register a newly purchased vehicle (new or used) at the DMV. So it doesn't matter if I buy a $30k car from a dealer, or a $30k vehicle in a private party sale. The sales tax/registration/etc at the DMV are EXACTLY the same because it's based on purchase price. 

Now dealer fees, sure there is a doc fee, but every dealer does that. 

In AZ if you buy from a dealer you pay tax (was 6% when I lived there), but no tax on private sales. Not many States like that.

Steve_Jones said:

z31maniac said:

In reply to pheller :

Just curious how it works out there, you said "Dealer taxs." What are dealer taxs?

Here in OK you register a newly purchased vehicle (new or used) at the DMV. So it doesn't matter if I buy a $30k car from a dealer, or a $30k vehicle in a private party sale. The sales tax/registration/etc at the DMV are EXACTLY the same because it's based on purchase price. 

Now dealer fees, sure there is a doc fee, but every dealer does that. 

In AZ if you buy from a dealer you pay tax (was 6% when I lived there), but no tax on private sales. Not many States like that.

That is incredibly bizarre. 

Yep. Taxes on a $27k car was $2313.

dealer service fee was $800 bucks.

A single year of registration was $500.

gov/doc fee (title and tags) another $500. 
 

CPO activation was $500. 
 

We could easily swing it, pay cash if we wanted to, but that's $5000 not going towards the car.

Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to pheller :

My 2017 Grand Caravan GT has a center console that extends almost to the rear edge of the front seats.  Somewhat similar to the Toyota above, although the Dodge has the shifter more conveniently mounted on the dash.  For regular driving, I use it all the time... when I'm camping it bugs me as it prevents me from being able to easily get from the front seat to the back of the van (I've done it, but at 52 it ain't easy). 

IIRC that is all removable for your camping, at least in the early part of this generation. It had to be since the port for lowering the spare is under there. 
 

To the OP: FWIW the Odyssey isn't even all that reliable according to ConsumerReports owner surveys. It still has the high Honda tax tho

Yea the Odyssey had issues with VCM. So much so there are a few companies that produce "muzzlers" that disable VCM to preserve the motor. 

P3PPY said:

Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to pheller :

My 2017 Grand Caravan GT has a center console that extends almost to the rear edge of the front seats.  Somewhat similar to the Toyota above, although the Dodge has the shifter more conveniently mounted on the dash.  For regular driving, I use it all the time... when I'm camping it bugs me as it prevents me from being able to easily get from the front seat to the back of the van (I've done it, but at 52 it ain't easy). 

IIRC that is all removable for your camping, at least in the early part of this generation. It had to be since the port for lowering the spare is under there. 
 

To the OP: FWIW the Odyssey isn't even all that reliable according to ConsumerReports owner surveys. It still has the high Honda tax tho

In my 2008 GC it was removable, but in the 2017 the center console extends forward under the dashboard to the firewall (I just checked). 

Lets go back a few years. 

As it's already been mentioned, the 2016 Honda Pilot shares a platform with the 2022 Pilot. Only getting updated for the 2023 model year (although not much.) That means the 2016 will still feel relatively "fresh" despite it's age. 

Are there any other older 7-Passneger SUVS that aren't the full-size dealers?

Santa Fe XL

Ford Flex (out due to unfavorable appearance)

Mazda CX9 - apparently rides on the same platform as the Ford Edge. 

Lincoln MKT - gonna be a hard sell. 

VW Atlas

Kia Sorrento (neighbors have one)

Apparently some of the early hybrid Highlanders were 7-Passenger, but they are still stupid priced.

I could never been seen in pre-2018 Chevy Traverse, but maybe I could handle a 2018+ if it were cheap enough. 

In reply to pheller :

The first gen CX-9 shares platforms with the Edge. The second gen (2016+) does not. 

I really like the 2016+ CX-9. I have always like that styling of the Mazdas. Turbo 2.5 helps with MPGs as well. 

I can find them for pretty good prices too. 

What's the catch? 

pheller said:

I really like the 2016+ CX-9. I have always like that styling of the Mazdas. Turbo 2.5 helps with MPGs as well. 

I can find them for pretty good prices too. 

What's the catch? 

 

A few of us here have decided you won't use all of the features the way we think you should, so you can't own one. 

On a serious note, I think they're cheap because people forget they exist, so less demand. They're very nice vehicles

Steve_Jones said:

pheller said:

I really like the 2016+ CX-9. I have always like that styling of the Mazdas. Turbo 2.5 helps with MPGs as well. 

I can find them for pretty good prices too. 

What's the catch? 

 

A few of us here have decided you won't use all of the features the way we think you should, so you can't own one. 

On a serious note, I think they're cheap because people forget they exist, so less demand. They're very nice vehicles

I'm wanting to say they had an abnormally high engine failure rate. Water pump failures and brake pump failures. 

The CX9 is much smaller than the Subaru that you checked out, especially in the 3rd row and cargo area. Very much form over function. But it looks great. It was the first one we looked at when my wife wanted to switch from her Sienna to an SUV a couple years ago. I was sad when we opened the hatch and it was an instant no.

My wife resisted the idea of a minivan for years, mostly because she loved her Honda Fit so much. I went through a series of vehicles, and eventually when our kids were 7 and 5 I convinced her to get a minivan, when her Fit was too small for road trips with both kids.

We bought an ancient high-mileage Sienna, and I swear her first words were "Why didn't we buy this sooner?" The sliding doors and cavernous interior made all the difference in the world loading kids in and out. It was worlds more comfortable and better to drive than the SUVs she grew up riding in.

Now we have a Hybrid Pacifica and she's sold completely on the minivan life. 

Everything your wife wants makes it harder to use as a family vehicle. 
 

Mini van is your answer, but probably not the Mazda5. My wife had a similar list as yours (but she also wanted a stick shift). She was coming from a Volvo wagon.  We went to test drive a 5.  The minute she saw the rear cargo space almost couldn't fit a grocery bag, she walked away. Never even wanted to drive it. A 5 is literally a Mazda3 with an extra row of seating jammed in the cargo area.  Super tight for a family.
 

We bought the MPV sitting next to it. THIS would be the perfect car for your wife and family. Styling is great, space, sliding doors both sides, stow and go rear seat.  Plus, they are smaller and more nimble then newer vans.  Unfortunately, they stopped making them in 2006, so they are long in the tooth. But they are also inexpensive. If you could find a nice one, it would serve you very well for a long time, and keep a lot of money on your side of the table.

pheller said:

Lets go back a few years. 

As it's already been mentioned, the 2016 Honda Pilot shares a platform with the 2022 Pilot. Only getting updated for the 2023 model year (although not much.) That means the 2016 will still feel relatively "fresh" despite it's age. 

Are there any other older 7-Passneger SUVS that aren't the full-size dealers?

Santa Fe XL

Ford Flex (out due to unfavorable appearance)

Mazda CX9 - apparently rides on the same platform as the Ford Edge. 

Lincoln MKT - gonna be a hard sell. 

VW Atlas

Kia Sorrento (neighbors have one)

Apparently some of the early hybrid Highlanders were 7-Passenger, but they are still stupid priced.

I could never been seen in pre-2018 Chevy Traverse, but maybe I could handle a 2018+ if it were cheap enough. 

I don't think any of those are going to meet your fuel economy goals. If you've relaxed that requirement, then a Durango should probably be included in the list too. It's very similar to something like a Traverse in nearly every metric, and is longitudinal/RWD biased rather than transverse/FWD. Has a much higher tow rating as well.

If minivans are still not an option, the new Explorer hybrid seems like a great option if you can find one in budget:

I am not even sure any vehicle exists that checks all these boxes - 3 row for real peoples, current generation, 27-33 MPG highway, AWD, $36k out the door.