4 teens die, who is really to blame?

gamby wrote: So much moralizing comes with these situations--"they were saints/they were athletes/they were athletic saints" They were also too dim to know their limits. It'll never change. The more we see of the trophy generation growing up, the more we're going to see more of these stories.

Problem is, most of us were probably too dim to know our limits at some point. We were just luckier than these poor bastards. I mean, honestly, how many people here haven't seen the other side of 100 mph on a public road? Is that ever safe? My dad is the safest driver I know, but even he had some stupid times as a teen (racing two abreast down Huron River Drive, dad? REALLY?)

I dunno if you can call this a generational thing. Are accident rates among young drivers going up or down? Fatalities and injuries are sure down, but I don't know about the non-fatal/non-injury actual crash rate.

paanta wrote:

gamby wrote: So much moralizing comes with these situations--"they were saints/they were athletes/they were athletic saints" They were also too dim to know their limits. It'll never change. The more we see of the trophy generation growing up, the more we're going to see more of these stories.

Problem is, *most* of us were probably too dim to know our limits at some point. We were just luckier than these poor bastards. I mean, honestly, how many people here haven't seen the other side of 100 mph on a public road? Is that ever safe? My dad is the safest driver I know, but even he had some stupid times as a teen (racing two abreast down Huron River Drive, dad? REALLY?) I dunno if you can call this a generational thing. Are accident rates among young drivers going up or down? Fatalities and injuries are sure down, but I don't know about the non-fatal/non-injury actual crash rate.

My '82 Tercel (my high school/college car) couldn't do 100 on a public road. I screwed around with it here and there, but never at a high rate of speed. I guess I was conservative (or I got that stuff out of my system skateboarding and BMX'ing).

I don't think I saw 100 until I got my first Civic at age 22 and even then, I did it once or twice on a freeway in the wee hours of the morning. Ditto for my 99Si--a couple of times on a deserted dawn freeway (of course, that car has seen a ton of legal drag racing, auto-x and a few HPDE's).

Maybe it's the pervasive nature of news,but in my high school years, I just don't remember kids dying in wrecks at the rate they are now--I mean, it's an epidemic in a wealthy (coincidence???) town near me called Barrington (RI).

At 38, it's all out of my system (although my 99 Si reduces me to a 20-something--which is why I keep it)

Whatever--these threads never go anywhere. Teens are dumb. Spoiled teens are dumber. They will continue to be dumb until the end of time.

Many of you make valid points. On both sides of the issue. But aside from being an active part of your child's education you are allowing others to do the job for sake of convenience. Now I would imagine with the general bent of those on this forum being enthusiasts you are more engaged. But not most Americans. Either they chose not to or can't due to commitments or responsibilities from work, etc.

That being said, I'm doing something about it. And you can too. Get involved. I just received my DE endorsement for teaching at the high school level. I am going to work from the inside out and I have the support of my co-workers and parents. They are enthusiastic about an instructor actually knowing something beyond the curriculum. Too many instructors I've met during my training are semi-retired teachers or teachers looking for additional pay with no real understanding of vehicle dynamics or systems. It's taken 3 years to get here. I can't wait for my first class.

As National Honor Society adviser I also have the leaders of the student body creating a non-texting pledge to introduce to the student body to sign that not only asks them not to do things obviously dumb behind the wheel but to take action and ask their peers not to engage in dangerous and distracting activities behind the wheel as well. The unfortunate thing however is that many of them got rides to school from parents doing just what we don't want the students to be doing. If we can't look to ourselves for improvement how can we expect the next generation to be asked to do better than us?

Put down your phone, focus on the road ahead, and treat the activity of driving as the incredibly difficult combination of tasks that it is!

drivers ed here was 20 hours of class and 8 hours of seat time, then go take your test. that was 10 minutes of seat time and a "maneuverability" test. pull up and around some cones, then back through. as slow as you wanted.

that kind of training and license process is way too weak IMHO. my dad took me out into snowy parking lots and taught me about car control.

when i was 16-18 i did plenty of dumb stuff in cars that could have killed me, i'm sure 99% of us did, it just catches up with some kids who just happen to not catch the break that we did, so we're still around and their community is mourning the loss of 4 teenagers.

sucks for their families and community. i'm not sure proper driver training could have avoided their demise because sometimes the right reaction still doesn't pull you out of a skid or prevent one, but it couldnt have made their chances of living any worse. nor would proper driver training keep the raging jar of hormones that is a teenage boy from speeding or showing off in a car.

The state of SC requires 40 hours of driving experience to get a drivers license. 10 of those hours have to be after dark. They also require a drivers training course either private or given at the public schools. We used 911 Drivers Training. They are staffed by retired police officers. Then we put the kids through the Street Survival school and a whole bunch of autocrosses. Then they get to sit down and watch some bloody videos a highway patrol friend has. Did it help, sure. Did it keep the kids from making poor choices, maybe. None of them have been killed yet though they sure have torn up some equipment. The school of hard knocks is the best teacher and I pray every day that none of the lessons will be deadly.

As far as who is at fault for the death of 4 teens. No one. Sometimes stuff just happens.

paanta wrote:

gamby wrote: So much moralizing comes with these situations--"they were saints/they were athletes/they were athletic saints" They were also too dim to know their limits. It'll never change. The more we see of the trophy generation growing up, the more we're going to see more of these stories.

Problem is, *most* of us were probably too dim to know our limits at some point. We were just luckier than these poor bastards. I mean, honestly, how many people here haven't seen the other side of 100 mph on a public road? Is that ever safe? My dad is the safest driver I know, but even he had some stupid times as a teen (racing two abreast down Huron River Drive, dad? REALLY?) I dunno if you can call this a generational thing. Are accident rates among young drivers going up or down? Fatalities and injuries are sure down, but I don't know about the non-fatal/non-injury actual crash rate.

Yep, did it myself. Stupid, stupid thing to do. Wrecked a car racing on the streets. Lost my license for a while due to that. I knew better, but I let the hormones win as I thought I was Mr. Hero Driver due to my upbringing around cars and racing. Now I'm pretty damned mellow on the street as I've got options for legal racing, but no race car handy as I'm busy building them. Our SUV is now my main transpo and that isn't something to fling around with wild abandon on the street.

Dad used to race around the back roads of Beavercreek, OR in his '64 Elan, actually scared his best friend (a Formula Ford racer) so bad, while going to get a loaf of bread for dinner, that said friend wouldn't ride with him for nearly 20 years. To this day he is still the most late-braking mofo I know and I know where I get it from as I make the fiance grab for the arm rest every once in a while.

An Aunt destroyed the brakes on all four wheels in her Camaro after launching it and holding the brakes as it landed.

Her future husband wrecked Grandma's one and only new car by trying to replicate Pikes Peak in the back roads of West Linn, OR. The car ended up in a tree that he had to climb down from. Since then, he has been an avid autocrosser and hill-climber, holding the record for his class at Bible Creek for years and years. He also would make money drag racing his 6-pack GTX by charging $50 a run and another $50 to open the hood.

His younger brother, the future police officer, did 120mph+ across the Burnside bridge in downtown Portland in his BB 'Cuda and would change clutches nearly once a month because of his driving. He now teaches police officers how to drive and is on the gang task force, plus he races an RX-7 in SCCA and CSCC races.

My cousin would drag race along Airport Way in Portland with the Shelby Charger he bought from his dad. That is until the cops eventually shut it down and then the car was wrecked when an old man ran a stop sign (we all suspected he would have wrecked it being stupid like the rest of us did). Now my cousin is a carpet layer, married with two kids and is into quads now.

Another cousin was actually busted for doing 120 on the Interstate in her parents Freestyle. Had her mugshot in the paper and everything.

My older brother borrowed one of my Uncle's cars to go to prom. Made it as far as the freeway before he wrecked it. Why? He went from a 2-bbl 318 powered 63 Coronet 440 (with dual vinyl bench seats and lap belts) to a Street-prepared 84 GLH with 10:1 compression, dual webers and shaved tires with a large rear bar. In the wet. Tried get in front of the semi as he was getting on the freeway and when he didn't make it, he backed off and the rear end came around rather quickly. Stupid? Hells yes. He didn't have the experience with the car he needed.

Luckily, they all lived and learned.

Also, I'd still rather drive with my family than I would any of the folks on my Fiance's side of the family. Two of them get lost in their own town after living there for nearly their entire lives. Two more are the only people I know that can actually make me car sick because they can't hold a steady speed, period. One can't parallel park her RAV-4 (and wants to buy an SLK to keep in Palm Springs) and actually asked a perfect stranger to help by parking it for her. Most just fixate on the car directly in front of them and are shocked when I point out the accident that's 3 or 4 lights down the road or the emergency vehicle that's coming up the road behind us.

I just tell them that I use the mirrors and my eyes to actually look at what is happening around the car on a regular basis. Needless to say family gatherings with her family involve a lot of Camry's and other similar products, all parked poorly. The food and fun are always served in large quantities though!

The one saving grace is one of her Uncle's owns an original ZR1 and a few other 'vettes and autocrosses them. He doesn't do his own work, but the fact that he actually drives them hard is very cool.

DoctorBlade wrote: I was driving good at 16, and didn't have any lessons. Paying attention helps, I've found. I also started off in a 76 Toyota Corolla station wagon. No chance of hooning that thing.

If I can hoon in a 72 ford courier, you can hoon in that.

Oh, and in answer to the question on who is to blame? Darwin

Opus wrote:

DoctorBlade wrote: I was driving good at 16, and didn't have any lessons. Paying attention helps, I've found. I also started off in a 76 Toyota Corolla station wagon. No chance of hooning that thing.

If I can hoon in a 72 ford courier, you can hoon in that.

It did have the greatest overdrive in the world. I pretended to race one guy who wouldn't let me in his lane. I floored it, still under the speed limit, and the wagon jumped into gear, at which point he downshifted and zoomed off. I left off the gas and let the cop waiting up the road do the rest. :D

Opus wrote: Oh, and in answer to the question on who is to blame? Darwin

Don't shoot the messenger.

I blame the political party in power and/or current presidential administration

vwcorvette wrote: That being said, I'm doing something about it. And you can too. Get involved. I just received my DE endorsement for teaching at the high school level.

That's a great idea. How does one go about doing that? I would love to.

The unfortunate thing however is that many of them got rides to school from parents doing just what we don't want the students to be doing. ... Put down your phone, focus on the road ahead, and treat the activity of driving as the incredibly difficult combination of tasks that it is!

That gets to me too. I teach at a private school, and when our class goes on field trips, we generally have parents drive. About half of them scare the crap out of me. I feel very conflicted when their driving bothers me and generally don't say anything for fear of offending the people who ultimately pay my bills. Of course, I can't pay them if I'm dead.

I do say things like, "Would you like me to do that [messing with something in your iDrive]." But I can't quite bring myself to say, "could you please not mess with your phone now?"

Got word last nite that 4 teenagers were badly injured on the Dragon yesterday. I dont know any details but only the real foolhardy would go up there after all the snow and ice plus the crap that TDOT puts down to try to clean up the snow and ice. Just to show that this type of thing happens daily. I hate to be cold but this is Darwinism in effect.

Why is it that a country that has gone to regulating every other damn thing refuse to make educating it's young drivers a priority?

Answer: Because licensing of drivers just like every other goddamned government regulation. It doesn't exist to make you prove how great of a driver you are. It exists so the berkeleying government can sell you a driver's license once every few years. See also: Speed traps, vehicle registration.

Salanis,

Contact your state department of education and/or DMV.

Opus wrote: If I can hoon in a 72 ford courier, you can hoon in that.

I spent a night in a snowy parking lot practicing Rockford Files reverse spins in my '76. It was really hard to do with the complete lack of power and the under-dash E-brake handle, but I got it done. Proof that you can hoon about in anything if you want to badly enough.

I have no problem whatsoever with telling someone to put down the phone when I'm in the car. You wouldn't drive with someone who was impaired would you?