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Grtechguy
Grtechguy SuperDork
1/7/11 6:59 a.m.

This is sad, but I wouldn't want to live there either

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2011/01/package_of_58_flint_houses_for.html

FLINT, Michigan — Looking for a house in Flint? How about 58 of them?

Anyone with an Internet connection could snatch them all for a cool $92,800.

An Illinois-based investment company is trying unload dozens of houses in a package deal on eBay for more than three times what it paid for them at a Michigan public land auction.

But buyers beware: The houses could be in poor condition, and at least a few of the previous owners likely abandoned them knowing the houses were worth less than the taxes owed, local officials said.

It’s a scenario officials said is hard to avoid in today’s depressed housing market: An out-of-state speculator grabbing up homes for pennies on the dollar and then trying to flip them online for a quick profit to someone who may not be familiar with Flint real estate.

The situation is made even more unusual because buyers have to bid on a 58-house package, instead of individual properties, said Doug Weiland, executive director of the Genesee County Land Bank. The houses are scattered all over the city, with a few in Mt. Morris.

“These are people who could have no idea what they’re buying,” Weiland said of potential bidders. “It’s a very, very tough market. It’s a tough situation.”

The company, Payne Investments out of La Grange, Ill., purchased the tax-foreclosed properties individually at an auction for a total of $25,350 in November, according to auction records.

The company bought the houses for as little as $100 each, and none for more than $850 — much less than the $1,600 apiece that the eBay listing is selling them for.

Attempts to reach officials with Payne Investments were unsuccessful this week.

The November auction was held by the Genesee County treasurer’s office as required by state law, said county Treasurer Deborah Cherry. The county has to accept the highest bid no matter what, she said.

As of Wednesday afternoon, the eBay listing had one bid of $92,800.

The listing’s description makes it clear the houses are sold “as is” and the current conditions of the properties are unknown, but it also markets the homes as ideal rental properties.

The listing also reports the average home sale price in the Flint/Grand Blanc area as $229,933, which appears to be from a 2005 CNNmoney.com article.

“These homes have tremendous value as an investment,” the listing says.

Weiland said that’s “ridiculous.” He also said the houses’ combined value of $1,461,200 could be misleading to someone browsing the listing who has no knowledge of the Flint housing market, he said.

“It may look like it has $20,000 or $30,000 in value when it’s really a bombed out mess,” Weiland said.

Weiland said the market has changed drastically from just a few years ago.

The average home in Flint sold for $59,000 in 2005. Last year, the average sale price was just $15,000, he said.

The Genesee County Land Bank was created in 2004, in large part to prevent tax-foreclosed properties from ending up in the hands of speculators.

In this case, however, the investment company purchased the homes in person at the state auction, before the homes would have reverted to the Land Bank’s control.

Cherry said the county will watch the eBay auction to see what happens.

“If I were buying them, I would do as much due diligence as possible ... to see what kind of work they may need,” she said. “I hope they’re purchased by someone who’s going to use them in a positive way.”

But the statistics don’t look good.

Weiland said that of all the properties in previous years that have been sold at auction, one-third of them have come back to the county because of foreclosure for unpaid taxes one or more times.

“The problem is as long as people are able to buy these cheap at auction, they’re going to continue to sell them like this,” he said. “It continues to leave the community in flux.”

SVreX
SVreX SuperDork
1/7/11 7:15 a.m.

I'd buy them if I was up there.

But I'm not.

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
1/7/11 7:34 a.m.
SVreX wrote: I'd buy them if I was up there. But I'm not.

If it were a single neighborhood, yes (that's for us, who are not related to the building industry in any way....).

But not scattered all over the place, randomly.

patgizz
patgizz GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
1/7/11 9:14 a.m.

i'd buy them for a few grand over what they paid.

then fix one, use as base of operations to fix the others, then section 8 all of them. actually working on doing something similar in cleveland. we bought my sister's house in a safe neighborhood on a nice street a block south of a nice state park on lake erie for $1250. the plumbing and furnace were stolen and the roof needed done, those were the only things needed to get it safe. plaster repairs from the bad section of roof, etc... but it took around 10 grand to get it nice and livable with new doors, a few new windows, all new electric and plumbing, furnace, water heater, glass block for the basement, roof, laminate kitchen floor, tiled bathtub surround, 3 new toilets, etc... it must be nice having a brother who is a carpenter/contractor. i wouldn't know, but my sister would.

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
1/7/11 9:48 a.m.

Actually, one other thing to consider, what is owed on the properties. but since it's more hypothetical at this point.

But having a plan to put enough of them back to use would be a good idea. Where's Habitat?

carguy123
carguy123 SuperDork
1/7/11 9:50 a.m.

Even if you bought them you'd have to find tenants with a job, that's hard to do up there. Find people with a job that is.

There's also the "minor" issue of whether there is a completely free and unencumbered title to the properties....

Imagine the average price of houses there is lower than the average price of a new car.

Fixing them up would be expensive too. You might buy them at depression prices but buying the materials to fix them up would be at non-depression retail prices.

It's my understanding that they have a number of foreign investors buying up large blocks of that area. This could spell large scale housing redevelopment or some sort of industrial projects. The unions have run all the industry out of the area which is why the huge issues, but if someone is bringing back some industry, foreign or not, it could spell the revitalization of the area. In any case if you've got oodles of money, plenty of time and VISION now might be the time to buy.

I think some oil sheik ought to buy all of Michigan and put a roof over it ala the big Ferrari "park" at Abu Dhabi and make it the worlds largest indoor theme park!

Strizzo
Strizzo SuperDork
1/7/11 9:53 a.m.

if they were all in the same neighborhood or development it could be the start of the GRM compound that was talked about a while back....

Giant Purple Snorklewacker
Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork
1/7/11 9:54 a.m.

Yeah - if that was one entire development I'd do it. It would become Flint's greatest black market organ harvesting site until I had enough capital to bring my plan for global domination to fruition.

That or a sweet paintball park.

carguy123
carguy123 SuperDork
1/7/11 10:23 a.m.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: That or a sweet paintball park.

+eleventy billion!!

internetautomart
internetautomart SuperDork
1/7/11 10:34 a.m.

ORV park! if it only it were in a semi-solid block.

carguy123
carguy123 SuperDork
1/7/11 10:35 a.m.
internetautomart wrote: ORV park! if it only it were in a semi-solid block.

NAH! Then it would fill up with Gypsies and then soon thereafter you'd see the Wolfman.

minimac
minimac SuperDork
1/7/11 10:46 a.m.

I wonder what they'll want for the whole state?

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
1/7/11 11:16 a.m.

Houses aren't worth anything if there's no one to buy them. I wouldn't take them if they gave them to me. Sounds like a giant money pit.

Just did a really quick check. It is hard to wrap your brain around the price of a home in Flint. Look at this:

http://realestate.yahoo.com/Michigan/Flint/2720-sloan-st:396ca8c84927a5152687ea8cfa8dab1

And that was kind of a nice one. There are cheaper ones. And this is one someone is actually trying to sell. Imagne the condition those others are in. So fix one up as nice as this and your $1,600 investment is worth $3,000. Don't know about you, but I can't look at a Home Depot without spending $1,400. I say those houses are a nightmare and the guy paid too much.

Bet you can pick these up all day long for $1,000.

http://realestate.yahoo.com/Michigan/Flint/3176-eckinger-st:be1af7d450c6804bb91a6775b18c5dc9

http://realestate.yahoo.com/Michigan/Flint/3228-skander-dr:8464ad201884a4a19c2f356e18efc;_ylt=At78o6HCQIQ3jNfKrePDjIJn47Qs

Man, that's depressing.

AngryCorvair
AngryCorvair GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
1/7/11 12:15 p.m.
fast_eddie_72 wrote: Bet you can pick these up all day long for $1,000. http://realestate.yahoo.com/Michigan/Flint/3176-eckinger-st:be1af7d450c6804bb91a6775b18c5dc9 http://realestate.yahoo.com/Michigan/Flint/3228-skander-dr:8464ad201884a4a19c2f356e18efc;_ylt=At78o6HCQIQ3jNfKrePDjIJn47Qs Man, that's depressing.

not to paint too rosy a picture, but those are starting bids of auctions, not listing prices.

mndsm
mndsm SuperDork
1/7/11 12:20 p.m.

I just inked a deal for a house for 112k, and thought I got a good deal. If MI wasn't so hosed, I could buy those. In cash.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy HalfDork
1/7/11 12:45 p.m.
fast_eddie_72 wrote: Houses aren't worth anything if there's no one to buy them. I wouldn't take them if they gave them to me. Sounds like a giant money pit.

That's an incredibly short-sighted view point. Think long term (20 years).

Grtechguy
Grtechguy SuperDork
1/7/11 12:48 p.m.

Thankfully I live in West Michigan, which has been less dependent on the big 3. Medical and Technology business's are on the rise here in Grand Rapids.

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury SuperDork
1/7/11 1:00 p.m.

LOL, Im part of a facebook group "lets donate Michigan to Canada". To be fair, its because I had beef with a wolverines grad, and it was supposed to be a slap in the face. That, and I joined in '05, before MI degraded so far that the donation idea actually began to sound plausible

SVreX
SVreX SuperDork
1/7/11 9:18 p.m.

Some of you don't think very creatively.

Last year the average sale price in Flint was $15,000. 58 houses at that price would be worth $870,000.

Tell me again, why is that not a good investment? Even if they only sold for HALF that, there's $350K to be made.

I could dismantle them and sell them for firewood and make money.

I understand- titles, taxes due, outstanding debts, etc. That's what title searches are for. Besides, this is hypothetical.

But, with a 20 year plan and a willingness to work hard and think outside of the box (how about bringing in a business like a call center or internet re-shipper to enable people to have jobs and pay rent, or a low cost private sector homesteading plan), there's a LOT of money to be made.

I wouldn't dismiss it just because Flint sucks, or they might need work.

Let's see... Let's assume they averaged $10K in repairs, and could rent for $200 per month. The average loan would cost you $136 per month @ 7% for 10 years. That could very conservatively yield an average positive cash flow of $64K per year, generate $100K per year in deductible expenses, and have assets worth $3.4 million completely paid for at the end of 20 years (assuming they returned to 2005 prices with NO further appreciation).

I fail to see the problem.

Grtechguy
Grtechguy SuperDork
1/7/11 9:30 p.m.

^^^^ Have you been to Flint recently? it's pretty much a ghost town.

Good luck finding renters who will actually pay the rent.

SVreX
SVreX SuperDork
1/7/11 9:32 p.m.

Ship them in. Work on job creation as well.

There are plenty of people willing to relocate these days.

Section 8 renters ALWAYS pay the rent.

I'm just saying...

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
1/7/11 9:38 p.m.
AngryCorvair wrote: not to paint too rosy a picture, but those are *starting bids* of *auctions*, not listing prices.

No, I get that, but in a market where a house sells for $5k, I'm guessing you can buy a load of houses for a grand.

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
1/7/11 9:40 p.m.
HiTempguy wrote: That's an incredibly short-sighted view point. Think long term (20 years).

Really? 20 years with a ton of houses with no one living in them? It would cost you a fortune to maintain them in any kind of way.

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
1/7/11 9:45 p.m.
SVreX wrote: Last year the average sale price in Flint was $15,000. 58 houses at that price would be worth $870,000.

Didn't look like it to me on yahoo real estate. Looked like it was less than 10k. That's kinda scary. And these houses aren't average.

The population is shrinking. New housing starts - zero. Who is going to buy those houses? And if you don't heat them, the plaster will all fall off in a couple of years, assuming they have any now. Pluming will be a nightmare, mice will take over. Ug. I have a hard enough time keeping one house up.

The question isn't if you could make some money, the question is where you can make more money. I have some money to kick around. Not a ton, but some. I could have bought those 58 houses for cash. No way I would do it. Much better investments that require no work and no taxes. Shoot, I don't think it's much of a guess to say an S&P index will outperform those houses over the next 12 months after you deduct what it will cost you. And really, I bet in 12 months the cost you money at no gain at all.

I'm not knocking anyone who wants to give it a go, but I'm sure not dumping money into real estate in this market. Shoot, I feel like I made out pretty well just because we haven't lost any money on our house for the last couple of years.

Take care,

Ed

SVreX
SVreX SuperDork
1/7/11 9:46 p.m.

I don't think he (or anyone) suggested 20 years with no one living in them.

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