Afterlife?

I am with SVreX. As its been said before in this thread, if i am wrong and there is nothing after death, what have i lost? I have tried to live my life in a way that uplifts others and keeps myself grounded. On the other hand if what i believe is right, what have i gained? Eternal life with people and the God who loves me.

In reply to griffin729:

Sir, please don't capitalize "atheist" unless it's the first word in a a sentence. It's really not any kind of "proper noun".

curtis73 wrote: I could list thousands of these. I'm an ordained minister, so I might have studied a bit. The bottom line is if you're going to be a fundamentalist Christian and you read the words "I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh" how can that not be interpreted as God being a mass murderer of his own creation?

Thousands, huh? I think you are prone to exaggeration.

Please don't try to prove your point.

Fundamentalist? What in the world makes you think I am a fundamentalist? Never mind. Not important.

As I noted earlier, each of those were times when God avenged creation for purification, certainly NOT murder. The two are completely different.

As far as being an ordained minister, that does not give you any type of exclusivity to Biblical understanding. You are every bit as capable of misinterpretation as anyone else. Considering that your assertions fall WAAY outside of Christian theology and mainstream interpretation, I think it very unwise to make blanket statements about Christianity which would be considered untrue by the vast majority of theologians. Some of them might have even studied almost as much as you.

In reply to Brett_Murphy:

For me, the real question in that is if salvation only comes through Jesus, what happened to all of the people before that? Were they not good enough to be saved?

Read Galatians 3:6 and Genesis 15:6.

If god is omniscient, he had to know we were going to eat the fruit- that is a rookie, first time parent mistake. Free will is a thing like that, and all children learn what not to do by doing.

http://www.gotquestions.org/tree-knowledge-good-evil.html

Good questions.

Javelin wrote: Thanks for all of the great discussion from both sides. For a background, I was raised hardcore Roman Catholic (like Latin Mass and everything). Now I'm thinking there may be some sort of collective consciousness or cyclical intelligence to us or our universe. I'm reading some Hawking right now (which is actually really interesting) and he talks about how some theories maintain time didn't even always exist. That's pretty deep!!

Have you ever read GK Chesterton? His Orthodoxy blows me away, and it is a far easier read than Thomas Aquinas. Edit: it is fun reading, unlike many dry (but spiritually fruitful) theological texts. He's part of the reason I am and continue to be Catholic.

“Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried.”

Do you believe there is an afterlife?

Yes, of course.

If so, how do you justify/prove/believe in it?

These are "religious" reasons, but I believe they stand up to external scrutiny:
1. Jesus' disciples actions don't make any sense except in light of the Resurrection.
2. Miracle of Lanciano
3. Apparitions of Mary, particularly Guadalupe, Lourdes and Fatima
4. The witness of Bl Mother Theresa and Bl John Paul II

All 4 have accounts from a non-believer perspective.

If not, how do you live day-to-day without completely breaking down?

If the consequences for anything you do are the same, nothingness, then the only justification for not doing whatever the heck you want is some desire for less pain or more pleasure. Hitler - dirt, Mother Theresa - dirt. What the heck is the point then? Without God, without an afterlife, literally everything is meaningless when all is said and done. Love, pain, joy, suffering, art, money, pleasure, everything is meaningless and void without God.

I know it sounds like I'm saying that the only reason to live a generous loving life is some sort of external tattle-tale. But, in the absence of meaning, all that is left is rage. Without God, there can be no meaning to life, except the brief flash in the pan that is nothing the next moment. So, the answer is simply that God is how I live day-to-day without completely breaking down. There is literally nothing else that animates me. Without Him, I am salt without taste, I am but mere dust.

“Man is an exception, whatever else he is. If he is not the image of God, then he is a disease of the dust.”

Belief in the bible or lack thereof shouldn't be the final word in your belief or lack thereof in an afterlife. Dismiss organized religion if as you feel necessary. But don't conclude you don't have a soul because Pat Robertson is a jackass.

BTW, Orthodoxy can be had for free on Gutenberg.org. Public domain FTW!

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16769

I absolutely do believe in the afterlife--the bible version. I have considered the other versions and don't care much for them. My greatest hang up with the afterlife was I could not bring myself to buy into the floating on a cloud version. As we have witnessed here, there are many very intelligent and creative types here--and not all of us are musical. My belief is that if since God created all of us, He has an outlet for the aspects of our personality that line up with nature. If God is as great as He says He is--and I believe He is--then none of us who choose His path to eternity will be disappointed. I have been been asking for a planet whose sole purpose is motorsports:) autox, track, dirt track, rock crawling etc. I once read a statement that sounded something like this: God created all the universe to day one, then He turned his attention to the earth. I believe that someday, with our participation he will turn His attention to the rest of the universe. We were created in His image. We are creative because He is.

There us no real way of proving it. God wants you to be sure of it. That is one reason He has made available His Holy Spirit tos us trough Jesus His Son. Ask Him, you will not offend Him with your questions. He is a big God He can handle himself. Whatever answer you get from him will line up with the bible. By the way, I have a DVD of some people who have seen experienced the after life. I can send it to you if you want it.

Someday, everything will be put right, everything will be as it should be. Whatever terrible thing is going on now will not last forever. Knowing this let's me put things in perspective.

Do I believe there is there an afterlife? I sure hope not...there will be a lot of pissed off people waiting for me.

Seriously, no, I don't believe there is. I also don't believe in any kind of religion or God or anything like that. Can I prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt? No, just like those who do believe can't prove their side either. I fully respect those who do believe, but they won't convince me to.

SVreX wrote:

curtis73 wrote: I could list thousands of these. I'm an ordained minister, so I might have studied a bit. The bottom line is if you're going to be a fundamentalist Christian and you read the words "I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh" how can that not be interpreted as God being a mass murderer of his own creation?

Thousands, huh? I think you are prone to exaggeration. Please don't try to prove your point. Fundamentalist? What in the world makes you think I am a fundamentalist? Never mind. Not important. As I noted earlier, each of those were times when God avenged creation for purification, certainly NOT murder. The two are completely different. As far as being an ordained minister, that does not give you any type of exclusivity to Biblical understanding. You are every bit as capable of misinterpretation as anyone else. Considering that your assertions fall WAAY outside of Christian theology and mainstream interpretation, I think it very unwise to make blanket statements about Christianity which would be considered untrue by the vast majority of theologians. Some of them might have even studied almost as much as you.

Mass "vengeance" for the purpose of "purification" is ok? This really doesn't sound too different from the viewpoint a lot of fanatics have, be they Muslim, Christian, or Psychotic.

rotard wrote: Mass "vengeance" for the purpose of "purification" is ok?

That is what Hitler would say

In reply to Fletch1:

Fletch, persons in the OT who might have believed in God were not saved if the only path of salvation is through Jesus. As a Christian, don't you think Satan believes in God?

I commend you your faith, provided you're not a dick about it- I do hate faith creeping into my politics and laws. I just happen to have none.

Just a fun little quote from the beginning of Orthodoxy (a little off topic, if you'll forgive me):

"The strongest saints and the strongest sceptics alike took positive evil as the starting-point of their argument. If it be true (as it certainly is) that a man can feel exquisite happiness in skinning a cat, then the religious philosopher can only draw one of two deductions. He must either deny the existence of God, as all atheists do; or he must deny the present union between God and man, as all Christians do. The new theologians seem to think it a highly rationalistic solution to deny the cat."

Do I believe in an afterlife?

I don't really know and I don't believe there is anyway to prove or disprove where there is an afterlife. I would like to think there is one but I don't really worry about it that much.

Do I believe in a god?

Yes. I just thinking this universe is too amazing for their not to be a guiding force but in no way do I believe in the Christian or Muslim or any other mainstream religion's god. I think they are all ways to teach morals ie do unto others and to me that is the important lesson not believe in a guy who rose from the dead or took over Mecca. If more people listened to that central lesson, the world would be a MUCH better place.

oldtin wrote: On a quantum physics side of things, there are some who think it could be possible to have an existence or consciousness outside of the body - perhaps in a different plane/dimension.

Interestingly I have seen 2 apparitions and a number of unusual things along with all my family members and friends who have stayed in the house I grew up in yet I do not believe in "afterlife" or "ghosts" etc but a very well educated person I had a long conversation with one time also believed that theoretical time overlays were probably responsible for such incidents.

oldtin wrote: I'd recommend making the most of the life you know about - live life like it's the only one you get.

Indeed.

a few posters wrote: Do I believe in a god?

Who cares, it was not in the OP's list but laugh at the OP thinking religion wouldn't consume the thread.

I'd rather people ponder this stuff in some sort of metaphysical sense.

But I'll join in. The Old Testament is not a historical or scientific text. Trying to defend it as such is a losing proposition.

"There is a very special sense in which materialism has more restrictions than spiritualism. Mr. McCabe thinks me a slave because I am not allowed to believe in determinism. I think Mr. McCabe a slave because he is not allowed to believe in fairies. But if we examine the two vetoes we shall see that his is really much more of a pure veto than mine. The Christian is quite free to believe that there is a considerable amount of settled order and inevitable development in the universe. But the materialist is not allowed to admit into his spotless machine the slightest speck of spiritualism or miracle. Poor Mr. McCabe is not allowed to retain even the tiniest imp, though it might be hiding in a pimpernel." - Chesterton

I believe in reincarnation. I'm Wiccan by faith (I guess you could call it a faith) and a paranormal investigator/researcher. I've experience things that show intelligence exists outside a biological form. I also have friends who claim to be and I believe to be mediums. They have proven themselves and have enlightened me.

rotard wrote: Mass "vengeance" for the purpose of "purification" is ok? This really doesn't sound too different from the viewpoint a lot of fanatics have, be they Muslim, Christian, or Psychotic.

I didn't say that, and won't pretend to be capable of determining the rightness or wrongness of it.

I am only responding to the suggestions that God is an angry, hateful, murdering, torturer. He is not.

If you actually want an explanation to the question you are asking, you will need to seek it yourself.

I don't actually think you want an answer to that question. It is usually thrown as a dart from someone trying to discredit God, not seeking to understand Him.

But that is not the subject of this thread.

In reply to Otto Maddox:

Not going to try and prove it to you or anyone else. But this is interesting reading:

http://www.bibletoday.com/archive/proof_text.htm

How would these men know this stuff thousands of years ago?

How could John know this...Rev. 13:16-18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osZbsC1t87A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YJsxMcAJoA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGahvZl7rgc

Sorry I'm off the topic a little.

SVreX wrote: Do you believe there is an afterlife? Yes. If so, how do you justify/prove/believe in it? Why do I need to justify or prove it? If I could, it wouldn't be belief. If the limits of my own understanding are all there is, this is truly a sorry existence. Faith begats faith. What I mean by that is that I didn't begin to see things of eternal nature until I FIRST took the step of faith. After that, more was revealed to me, which made me have to stretch my faith further. I find the confirmations AFTER I take the steps of faith, not before. And I find my faith limitations pretty daunting. There's a lot I do not yet know how to believe in. But I do know 2 things. 1- There IS a God. 2- I am NOT Him. As a parent I have a more important question I focus on. Do I want my children to be faithless? I do not.

Me too.

Brett_Murphy wrote: In reply to Fletch1: Fletch, persons in the OT who might have believed in God were not saved if the only path of salvation is through Jesus.

Only if God is not bigger than time (which He created). If beings are eternal, OT, NT, or whatever should not matter. In other words, if one thing happens after another in a nice neat order we call "time", you would be correct. But the God who was, and is, and is to come might have different thoughts on the matter.

Brett_Murphy wrote: As a Christian, don't you think Satan believes in God?

Absolutely.

Brett_Murphy wrote: I commend you your faith, provided you're not a dick about it- I do hate faith creeping into my politics and laws. I just happen to have none.

Thank you. I'm sorry.

I agree about faith creeping into my politics and laws. But I also know I have a Constitutionally protected right to freely practice my faith, and I am bothered when it is compromised because people don't want "faith in their politics and laws". There is a balance.

Javelin wrote: Do you believe there is an afterlife?

No. It's a giant universe and I could be wrong, but when it comes down to my best guess based on the available information, no.

If so, how do you justify/prove/believe in it?

N/A

If not, how do you live day-to-day without completely breaking down?

I don't exactly understand the need to have an answer, complete and full, right now, for everything. Sure, I want answers, but it doesn't make any sense to me that the universe should be held to a set of rules that are even comprehensible to a human any more than they are to a goldfish.

I get a great deal of joy from boggling over the stuff I don't have answers for. I think the pursuit of understanding is a good thing, but the expectation that it will succeed in all areas is misguided, if only because the resulting disappointment in some areas might damage the enthusiasm for the pursuit.

With respect to dealing with people with just the one life, it's never been that difficult. My parents are nice folks, and I grew up watching them be nice to people who were usually nice back. Sometimes people weren't nice, and it seemed pretty obvious that that sucked and I wouldn't want to be like that. Sure, I've gotten a lot of stuff wrong by way of stupidity or weakness, but not too badly, and my resulting questioning of what I was doing was part of the process of figuring out who I was and who I wanted to be. This process is ongoing

Brett_Murphy wrote: For me, the real question in that is if salvation only comes through Jesus, what happened to all of the people before that? Were they not good enough to be saved? Why punish people for being... well, people? If god is omniscient, he had to know we were going to eat the fruit- that is a rookie, first time parent mistake. Free will is a thing like that, and all children learn what *not* to do by doing. Heck, the entity known as satan was called the Adversary not because he fell and was working against god, but because god had set him to that task.

I think this has been answered already, but anyone who is saved is saved by Christ. God being God isn't limited by time. Furthermore, the "descent into Hades" has traditionally been interpreted as Jesus freeing the righteous who awaited Jesus' death on the Cross.

Re: those not knowing Christ through no fault of their own: God is a just God. If someone had no opportunity to learn of Him, they still had the opportunity to choose Him in his search for truth and righteousness. At their final judgment, they will exclaim, "Aha! This is whom I was searching for my whole life!" This was elegantly illustrated in CS Lewis' The Last Battle of the Chronicles of Narnia.

So much changed in the Council of Nicea it isn't funny. So much before that was lost in translation it isn't funny.

Um, no. The Councils (of which Nicea is one) simply served to clarify what was already believed when a debate arose. Plus, this is one of the more awesome Councils. St. Nicholas (yes, THAT St. Nicholas) smacked Arius for his heretical self.

More importantly, why design such a rigged, broken system in the first place?

Why have free will? Because having free will is better than not having free will. Without free will we cannot love. Any devotion without free will is programmed and worthless.

Additionally, how can different cultures all claim to be *exactly and perfectly* right about their gods being the only correct and true ones, etc. Popularity doesn't equal truth or quality among humans, I have only to point to Kei$ha to show that to be a fallacy. So who is right? Is everybody right? Who can say?

They can claim it, but, necessarily, only one claim about the nature of reality can be exactly and perfectly right. That does not mean, necessarily, that one actually IS exactly and perfectly right. However, I do happen to believe one exists, and is awesome.

To get back on the OP's main question. This is my own personal answer, if it helps any:

Before Christ: Scared to die

After Christ: Not scared to die

Sometimes I actually look forward to leaving this world. It's getting too crazy for me.

Although I still haven't even driven a Miata yet. Are they really the answer?