Afterlife?

I'll just sum up the animal human thing in accordance to my whole belief system.

The Great Spirit, God, Good, whatever you want to call Him, created me out of him and therefore I am Him as well as you are Him and the animals are Him and the trees are him and the Miatas are Him etc. I believe all living have souls and are just as special. I try to be as good to them as possible. I believe humans are special and they were made of The Great Spirit's creativity or in Her image which gives us His ability to create far beyond what we understand.

Salanis wrote: Don't speak too soon. Apparently, humans taste like bacon: http://www.wired.com/table_of_malcontents/2006/11/robot_identifie/

Huh. Based on the humans I've eaten I'd have gone with sashimi.

This conversation here, the one that we're having, is why we're different than the animals.

N Sperlo wrote: I'll just sum up the animal human thing in accordance to my whole belief system. The Great Spirit, God, Good, whatever you want to call Him, created me out of him and therefore I am Him as well as you are Him and the animals are Him and the trees are him and the Miatas are Him etc. I believe all living have souls and are just as special. I try to be as good to them as possible. I believe humans are special and they were made of The Great Spirit's creativity or in Her image which gives us His ability to create far beyond what we understand.

Very close to my beliefs. I call myself a Monist. The best illustration of this I have heard of is a Buddhist one. We, and all the physical world are like waves on the ocean. The non-physical world is the ocean. Waves are the ocean and they're not. Waves do not appear from nothing and disappear to nothing, they just change what they are, but they are always formed of the ocean.

In reply to Salanis:

Those I hold these conversations with on most occasions are made up of many beliefs. Buddah was a smart one like all those who taught to love.

scardeal wrote: This conversation here, the one that we're having, is why we're different than the animals.

Sure. But humans could not have had these conversations before language. There are other animals that seem capable of developing language, but have not begun to do so yet. A mentally retarded human could not have this conversation.

Going back to my example of Elephants, they seem to contemplate their own mortality, they just don't have the language to communicate it with each other. Or maybe they do, but don't have the language to communicate it with us.

scardeal wrote: This conversation here, the one that we're having, is why we're different than the animals.

If we were to find out there were other intelligent life forms in the universe, how would you judge weather or not they had souls? I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm more or less curious. We all have a right to believe what we do.

Well, when the dolphins tell us "So long and thanks for all the fish," we can start talking. When the elephants recite poems of their great leaders, we can start talking. When they domesticate another species, we can start talking. All that you've told me so far is speculation on interior thought based on observation.

My aunt IS mentally retarded. She CAN wonder about her mortality and the afterlife. She does so at a very childlike level, however, but that's far more concrete than dolphins doing tricks and elephants avoiding elephant bones.

scardeal wrote: All that you've told me so far is *speculation*

Ironic post of the week!

N Sperlo wrote: If we were to find out there were other intelligent life forms in the universe, how would you judge weather or not they had souls? I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm more or less curious. We all have a right to believe what we do.

That is a good question. It's something I've thought of and pondered myself. I don't have a good answer at this time. I'd think that if they had signs of civilization (not just technology, but art, music, philosophy, etc.) that they would have a rational soul. If they were at an earlier stage it would be hard to tell. Overall, I'm not certain that we will find any life out there, but I don't rule out the possibility.

I think it would also be an interesting question regarding Christianity. As not being "Sons of Adam", are they fallen? If they are, is Christ's sacrifice applicable to them?

Do evil dolphins go to hell?

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

scardeal wrote: All that you've told me so far is *speculation*

Ironic post of the week!

You misquote me. The speculation is about the interior dispositions of the animals. I'm accepting for the purpose of this discussion that the behaviors observed are what he claims.

Otto Maddox wrote: Do evil dolphins go to hell?

If a dolphin were to have a rational soul (a requirement for it to be evil), then yes, it would go to hell. Unless, of course, it repented and became a good dolphin.

scardeal wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

scardeal wrote: All that you've told me so far is *speculation*

Ironic post of the week!

You misquote me. The speculation is about the interior dispositions of the animals. I'm accepting for the purpose of this discussion that the behaviors observed are what he claims.

You speculate that humans have an immortal soul and draw all manner of conclusions based on this. Yet, you dismiss actual verifiable biological, physical facts presented by others as speculation merely because it does not agree with your own magical thinking.

Irony judgement stands.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

scardeal wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

scardeal wrote: All that you've told me so far is *speculation*

Ironic post of the week!

You misquote me. The speculation is about the interior dispositions of the animals. I'm accepting for the purpose of this discussion that the behaviors observed are what he claims.

You speculate that humans have an immortal soul and draw all manner of conclusions based on this. Yet, you dismiss actual verifiable biological, physical facts presented by others as speculation merely because it does not agree with your own magical thinking. Irony judgement stands.

You have to understand that in his mind, he is correct. He can't really fathom why you don't believe the way he does. This logic follows the same reasoning about why it's not evil to flood your creation or send angels to kill children (and baby animals) as long as it's for purification. I for one think that there's a cat heaven. Cat's are awesome.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: You speculate that humans have an immortal soul and draw all manner of conclusions based on this. Yet, you dismiss actual verifiable biological, physical facts presented by others as speculation merely because it does not agree with your own magical thinking. Irony judgement stands.

I'm not dismissing the biological physical facts. I'm disagreeing with the conclusions drawn from those facts. Mocking me isn't going to change anything.

The facts as presented are elephants avoid elephant bones and can distinguish elephant bones from non-elephant bones. Dolphins show some mild problem-solving ability. Several species were mentioned to protect humans at one point or another. It is unclear whether these are typical of the species or not.

Let's take the elephants for example. Their speculation: the elephants avoid the bones out of reverence for the dead elephants. My speculation: the elephants avoid the bones of dead elephants out of a survival instinct. Both explain the behavior.

Furthermore, you do not give me the same credit of accepting the facts.

Now, please review some of these observed facts and get back to me:

Miracle of Lanciano: bread turned into heart muscle flesh. It has not decomposed in several hundred years, the flesh was verified in 1971, reverified in 1973 by the World Health Organization http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Lanciano

Miracle of the Sun - Fatima: witnessed by 30,000-40,000 in 1917, occurred after several days of heavy rain, afterwards the people's clothes and large puddles in the area were simply dry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

Juan Diego's Tilna with the image of Our Lady of Gaudalupe - has not deteriorated in 500 years, despite being open to the elements several hundred of those years. The material typically lasts fewer than 10. It has survived a bomb blast behind typical plate glass when glass 150m away was shattered. Furthermore, scientists cannot explain how the image was imprinted on the material. Plus, the material on the image side is "soft like silk", which scientists also cannot explain.

Fletch1 wrote: To get back on the OP's main question. This is my own personal answer, if it helps any: Before Christ: Scared to die After Christ: Not scared to die Sometimes I actually look forward to leaving this world. It's getting too crazy for me. Although I still haven't even driven a Miata yet. Are they really the answer?

Interesting points. For me its the other way around. When i was a Christian, I was constantly guilty, fearful, and convinced that every act I did was going to ensure that I perish in hell. After leaving organized religion and letting God help me find the path I'm on, I am not scared to die at all.

And, yes. Miata is probably God's nickname

You must understand that I was giggling like Beavis when I posted this:

In reply to curtis73:

I tend to agree although I remain on the Christian side of things. But I am not a "God fearing Christian" as they say.

Something else I want to add that might help us see both side of everyone's debate... Not that we don't, but this might put a couple things in perspective.

When one man has been given proof, it is truth to that man. If proof has been given to all, then it is truth to all men. But fact is a whole different thing. We exist in a world that uses our fives senses to learn. That grass is green, this pie smells good, this cat feels soft. But in reality, we can't know that those are facts. To someone else who was burned by a pie as a child, or attacked by a lion, or allergic to grass, may have different truths based on their experiences.

Since we are all blessed with different experiences, everyone has different truths. I believe our souls and whatever other universal energy you may or not believe in know the facts.

In reply to curtis73:

Don't forget Curtis how forgiving God is. There are plenty of examples. Moses murdered a man in Exodus 2 trying to help one of his own people. It wasn't right, but God still forgave him and used him. King David was a man after God's own heart, but knocked up Bathsheba and had her husband killed. There were consiquences(spelling),but God forgave him and continued to use him. Peter denied Christ three times, but Christ forgave him and still used him. Paul talked about the battle between his fleshly side and spiritual side that all Christians go through. James says we all stumble in many things, I know I do. But the Holy Spirit, or as Christ also calles him, The Helper, is there to help us along. Read Romans 7:18-25. Remember also, its not religion that saves, it's giving your heart to Christ. Romans 6:23. And Romans 8:1.

scardeal wrote: Furthermore, you do not give me the same credit. Now, please review these observed facts and get back to me: Miracle of Lanciano: bread turned into heart muscle flesh, verified in 1971, reverified in 1973 by the World Health Organization http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Lanciano

Verified only to be human flesh. The claim that that were once bread and wine is not a fact it is an unsubstantiated claim by a priest who lived long ago. Akin to holding up a piece of lunchmeat and declaring it was once bread and for proof you prove it is ham.

Miracle of the Sun - Fatima: witnessed by 30,000-40,000 in 1917 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

A large group of people were told ahead of time that miracle would happen the next day and were out staring at the sun. The sun is visible from a lot of vantage points. No one who wasn't expecting something and were not out staring at the sun reported anything odd. Try this: On a sunny day - stare at the sun. What happens to your vision?

Juan Diego's Tilna with the image of Our Lady of Gaudalupe - has not deteriorated in 500 years, despite being open to the elements several hundred of those years. The material typically lasts fewer than 10. It has survived a bomb blast when glass 150m away was shattered. Furthermore, scientists cannot explain how the image was imprinted on the material. Plus, the material on the image side is "soft like silk", which scientists also cannot explain.

Well... depends on where you get your scientists. Historians say it was a ploy by the Spanish to help convert the people who lived there.

http://www.csicop.org/sb/show/miraculous_image_of_guadalupe/

http://eaglefeather.org/series/Mexican%20Series/The%20Myth%20of%20La%20Virgen%20de%20Guadalupe.pdf

Look, we can go 'round and 'round like this but it is exhausting and not really very benefical to anyone except for comedic value. You are a person who I feel could benefit from a read thru Carl Sagan's book: A Candle in the Dark.

Sometimes it is not so easy to decide between proven fact and biased testimonial - and you are citing some very sketchy things as fact and also attributing them to a pre-meditated origin as if the only possible answer could be god and not some other phenomena. Read the book - its available in paperback and if you don't get a single thing from it you will still be able to argue with the same line of defense but... maybe you will have a different perspective about how Mary got on the piece of toast.

Cheers - I gotta catch a flight.

I've experienced ghosts so I'm pretty certain there is something going on after life.

I also know that what I do understand is a tiny drop in the overall knowledge bucket. There is much more I don't know that there is that I do know.

I'll leave the organized religion debate to others. I believe in, and follow the golden rule:

If you treat people well and try to be the best person you can be----- you will lead a happy life and be comfortable in your own skin.

If you treat people poorly, you will end up unhappy. (regardless of wealth)

What comes around......goes around. Karma will catch you!

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Verified only to be human flesh. The claim that that were once bread and wine is not a fact it is an unsubstantiated claim by a priest who lived long ago. Akin to holding up a piece of lunchmeat and declaring it was once bread and for proof you prove it is ham.

That hasn't deteriorated... contrary to normal physical processes. Furthermore, you are missing some of the interesting details of that... The blood there spontaneously reliquifies. The tissue is heart tissue, and the cut is something that could only have been done in the past couple hundred years. Yet, it's over 1000 years old.

as found in the 1970 study, summarized partially:

Another unusual characteristic of the blood is that when liquified, it has retained the chemical properties of freshly shed blood. When we cut ourselves and stain our clothes, the chemical properties of the blood are gone within 20 minutes to a half hour. If blood is not refrigerated within an hour maximum, the composition rapidly breaks down. If blood were taken from a dead body, it would lose its qualities quickly through decay. This blood is over 1000 years old and still contains all its properties, chemicals and protein of freshly shed blood. And yet in the testing, it was determined that no preservatives of any kind were found in the blood.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: A large group of people were told ahead of time that miracle would happen the next day and were out staring at the sun. The sun is visible from a lot of vantage points. No one who wasn't expecting something and were not out staring at the sun reported anything odd. Try this: On a sunny day - stare at the sun. What happens to your vision?

Actually, that is factually incorrect. From the article, emphasis mine:

Kevin McClure claims that the crowd at Cova da Iria may have been expecting to see signs in the sun, since similar phenomena had been reported in the weeks leading up to the miracle. On this basis, he believes that the crowd saw what it wanted to see. However, none of the previous phenomena had to do with the sun; the focus, for the most part, was on the little tree where the lady was said to appear. McClure's account also fails to explain similar reports of people miles away, including non-believers, who by their own testimony were not even thinking of the event at the time, or the sudden drying of people's sodden, rain-soaked clothes. Kevin McClure stated that he had never seen such a collection of contradictory accounts of a case in any of the research that he had done in the previous ten years, although he has not explicitly stated what these contradictions were.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Well... depends on where you get your scientists. Historians say it was a ploy by the Spanish to help convert the people who lived there. http://www.csicop.org/sb/show/miraculous_image_of_guadalupe/ http://eaglefeather.org/series/Mexican%20Series/The%20Myth%20of%20La%20Virgen%20de%20Guadalupe.pdf

It doesn't explain why today it's still there. Even if there have been touch-ups, it still should have eroded away ages ago. It claims that they did a bait-and-switch in 1895 but forgot the crown... There's no evidence that there was a crown in the image in the first place. There might have been a crown in a similar image brought from Spain, but it wasn't a copy of that image. That "copy" should have deteriorated completely by 1905. And that copy's "copy" should have deteriorated 100 years ago.

In reply to scardeal:

Maybe it is the work of the devil. Or aliens. Or most likely it is a fraud.

Trying to prove the existence of god this way seems like grasping for straws.