Afterlife?

Otto Maddox wrote: In reply to scardeal: Maybe it is the work of the devil. Or aliens. Or most likely it is a fraud. Trying to prove the existence of god this way seems like grasping for straws.

You can go to Mexico or Lanciano and inspect them yourself. You can interview those people who are still alive from the 1917 event. I'm giving you things that you can review yourselves and can be tested objectively. These are things you can see with your own eyes. You can scientifically evaluate them to be true or false. I'm giving you something that you can rationally agree or disagree with.

Yet, despite scientific reports of authenticity, you dismiss, out of hand, the fact. What hurts is that you dismiss it out of hand.

Moving out of the circular mode - what are the possibilities for afterlife - meaning what forms might it take? Reincarnation, preservation of matter, passing along your DNA in the next generation, joining the collective unconsciousness (maybe at that point it's the collective consciousness), playing a harp on a cloud, child of the universe a' la 2001 a space odyssey, being a "spirit" in a different plane or dimension? What else?

In reply to scardeal:

The thing is, seeing something like this doesn't change my religious views one way or another. I already believe in a creator and an afterlife. Seeing some amazing non-decaying human meat just seems weird and kind of gross rather than miraculous.

oldtin wrote: Moving out of the circular mode - what are the possibilities for afterlife - meaning what forms might it take? Reincarnation, preservation of matter, passing along your DNA in the next generation, joining the collective unconsciousness (maybe at that point it's the collective consciousness), playing a harp on a cloud, child of the universe a' la 2001 a space odyssey, being a "spirit" in a different plane or dimension? What else?

I am not sure. Maybe hiding in one of the many extra dimensions suggested by string theory?

I have seen people take their last breath (ex-wife's grandparents), and saw how they reacted in the moments prior--like talking to people who were already dead; I have read too much about people having out-of-body and near-death experiences...to belive that there is something more after out trip on this world is done. So, yes I believe.

Otto Maddox wrote: In reply to scardeal: The thing is, seeing something like this doesn't change my religious views one way or another. I already believe in a creator and an afterlife. Seeing some amazing non-decaying human meat just seems weird and kind of gross rather than miraculous.

That's fine if it doesn't change your religious views, but you apparently already accept that there are things that exist that influence the physical world but are not part of it.

I haven't even gotten to the part that'll really make me look like a crackpot.

My favorite movie on religion is Dogma.

Rufus: He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the E36 M3 that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it. Bethany: Having beliefs isn't good? Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier...

In 1976 a good friend of mine was murdered. I didn't find out about until 3 days later. At the approximate time she died, I had an overwhelming sense of her presence and that she was happy and at peace. If I had any doubts about an afterlife of some sort, this experience erased them.

oldtin wrote: Moving out of the circular mode - what are the possibilities for afterlife - meaning what forms might it take? Reincarnation, preservation of matter, passing along your DNA in the next generation, joining the collective unconsciousness (maybe at that point it's the collective consciousness), playing a harp on a cloud, child of the universe a' la 2001 a space odyssey, being a "spirit" in a different plane or dimension? What else?

I have some very distinct views on that... or rather - this is the stuff that has been shown to me, therefore my truth. Not necessarily anyone else's

I believe that souls (while all part of the same energy plane) are distinct yet the same. Much like mountains are all distinct, but they're part of the same rock called earth. If you can, picture that soul-plane as being about 9 feet above your head (although that realm contains none of the three dimensions as we perceive them). Now imagine a finger poking down through that plane causing that membrane to meet your head (actually just above your head). That is your soul... your connection to the universe. Once your body dies, that connection is severed and you still exist as distinct blueprints, just without the corporeal part. That is why when John Wayne shows up to a group session, I know its John Wayne. He doesn't show up as a random energy form.

Your soul is not John Q Smith, your soul is the energy that inhabits John Q Smith while its alive. That distinct energy could "incarnate" several times, one time, millions of times. It is there to go along for the ride, to experience. What it experiences is up to you. What it came to experience is up to you to find out from your soul. That requires a level of communication that almost no one I know has... myself included. We all communicate with our souls but most of us don't know it.... like when you were a kid and you had this strong urge to be a musician and once you became one, it felt "right." Or when you were in college and took a class that felt "right" and changed your major because you had found your new calling. Or simply when you fell in love with someone. That's basically your soul saying, "finally, you got what I've been saying all this time." When your brain jives with your soul, bingo. That's that feeling you get. Your brain is like a computer, and your soul is like the internet. If you can just find a way to plug in that modem cord and communicate with the soul, all the knowledge of the universe is at your fingertips.

From what I've discussed with dead people, the afterlife is not really an afterlife, just the next step. Just as there are an infinite number of steps from the smallest particle up to the entire universe, there are also infinite levels of existence. This one we're in now is pretty remedial.

The most important part (that kinda ties my afterlife thing together) is that we are all part of god. Not just created by him/her, but created from him/her. Now, if you look at it the scientific way (or the atheist way, either one), what I call God is simply the collective consciousness of all that universe. I think its simply that atheists don't believe that this consciousness exists. We humans constantly try to think of God as this singular entity. I happen to think that atheists have it right... there is no God, at least nothing like religion says there is. I just happen to have a personal truth that there is more to the useless floating matter and energy in the universe than just nothing. The vast amounts of everything out there does have a consciousness. I simply call it God for lack of a better term. Many atheists believe that god doesn't exist because the description is so weird. Not believing in the god of the bible or the qu'ran, or any other book simply because those certain things can't be true or proven is a bit naive in my opinion. That's like saying Pink Panthers don't exist simply because you read a child's book with a pink cat and found it non-credible. The Pink Panther (a diamond) CAN exist, just not as you fathom it.

So I like to call myself a biblical atheist minister. I don't believe in the god of the scriptures, but I have never had more faith in a higher power than right now in my life.

In reply to curtis73:

"After leaving organized religion and letting God help me find the path I'm on, I am not scared to die at all. "

" I happen to think that atheists have it right... there is no God"

I think you are very confused. You sure have me lost.

Apathetic Agnosticism FTW.

We don't believe we have the capacity to understand God, the universe, the afterlife, etc. Since understanding is futile, we elect to not worry about it.

Random points from pages past: I wouldn't want an afterlife that doesn't include dogs. I mean, really, if any species should take over from us it's canines. I'm in awe of dogs (beyond their ability to lick themselves). If dogs don't have souls, then I can't believe humans do either.

"The Meaning Of Life" always cracks me up. I don't believe there is any "meaning" to life. Life just is. Life happens. You can chose to do with it whatever you want. To apply some higher purpose to it just seems, frankly, narcissistic. That your meager existence in the huge frame of time this planet has, and will, experience before it collides with the sun or something is far different than having an impact on history. You may strive to have an enduring legacy, but a purpose (being 'placed' here to do some unnamed task that you must figure out on your own) just sounds like a lot of self-important silly-ness.

Sorry, A.D.D. moment there. As you were.

scardeal wrote: That is a good question. It's something I've thought of and pondered myself. I don't have a good answer at this time. I'd think that if they had signs of civilization (not just technology, but art, music, philosophy, etc.) that they would have a rational soul. If they were at an earlier stage it would be hard to tell. Overall, I'm not certain that we will find any life out there, but I don't rule out the possibility.

My point is, humans spent far more time without any trappings of civilization than they have since spent with them. You said that even before they had developed civilization, they had souls. Maybe they used tools then, but many animals understand and use tools.

As for my example with elephants and bones. They do not avoid elephant bones. They recognize the bones of dead elephants and show great interest in them, particularly the skulls. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8209-elephants-may-pay-homage-to-dead-relatives.html

African elephants have been observed to become highly agitated when they come across the bodies of their own, and they have been seen to pay great attention to the skull and ivory of long-dead elephants. However, this interest had not been tested experimentally.

So, not a survival instinct, but what appears to be awareness of their own mortality. Elephants have also been seen to paint. They even paint pictures of elephants, demonstrating abstract self-awareness: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7Ge7Sogrk

So... they needed some help jumpstarting things, but they seem to exhibit what you are suggesting about as well as pre-civilzed hunter/gatherer humans would. I can't interview an elephant and ask them what they think about the bones or the art because we don't share language.

curtis73 wrote: Interesting points. For me its the other way around. When i was a Christian, I was constantly guilty, fearful, and convinced that every act I did was going to ensure that I perish in hell. After leaving organized religion and letting God help me find the path I'm on, I am not scared to die at all.

With all due respect, those are not characteristics of a Christian.

Going to church, saying a prayer, or being part of an organized religion do not make you a Christian.

Fear and guilt are tools of the enemy. The promises of God that come with salvation do not include these.

I spent a lot of years in church thinking I was a Christian before I actually became one.

SVreX wrote: Fear and guilt are tools of the enemy.

I thought "fear and guilt" was being an Irish Catholic?

SVreX wrote: With all due respect, those are not characteristics of a Christian. Going to church, saying a prayer, or being part of an organized religion do not make you a Christian. Fear and guilt are tools of the enemy. The promises of God that come with salvation do not include these. I spent a lot of years in church thinking I was a Christian before I actually became one.

I spent a lot of years in church thinking I was a Catholic before I found my beliefs had no place in that church. I believe that if I treat all others, human or otherwise, in a manner which displays love and respect, I will gain my spot in whatever happens next.

In reply to SVreX:

Very well said.

Fletch1 wrote: In reply to curtis73: "After leaving organized religion and letting God help me find the path I'm on, I am not scared to die at all. " " I happen to think that atheists have it right... there is no God" I think you are very confused. You sure have me lost.

you missed the next sentence where I basically said "I happen to think that atheists are right, there is no god" as far as the biblical description exists. I think there is a god. I was basically outlining the chasm between the god of religion and the fact that many atheists reject god simply because the mathematical/scientific evidence doesn't support it. I agree with atheists on that point. The god of religion is implausible, but at the same time I was basically calling out atheists who reject any concept of a god simply because religion has failed to explain it to them.

I personally DO believe in a higher power. I don't necessarily call it "God" since that implies (for many) a vengeful, bearded man who loves me unconditionally as long as I meet his conditions as outlined in the bible. I was merely pointing out that a disbelief in the biblical god should not equal a disbelief in any higher power.

In reply to curtis73:

If you don't believe in the God of the Bible, then why the self title of "biblical atheist minister"? Just curious.

Fletch1 wrote: In reply to curtis73: If you don't believe in the God of the Bible, then why the self title of "biblical atheist minister"? Just curious.

Because I don't believe in the god of the bible. I am atheist of the biblical god. Rather - I should say, I don't believe the god of the bible is an accurate representation of the god in which I believe. Same entity, but the generally-accepted socio-christian image associated with "god" is an inaccurate description to me. Make sense?

By the way.... I very much appreciate and respect your objectivity. Religion tends to really get people riled up. I want you to know that I never mean any disrespect, nor do I look down on you (or anyone) for their chosen faith. Like I said, we're all shown different truths so we have different convictions, and its a wonderful journey for all of us. I would never say, "you're wrong, this is the truth." because there is just as much chance that I am wrong. Only that higher power knows the "facts." We just have truths.

Salanis wrote:

SVreX wrote: Fear and guilt are tools of the enemy.

I thought "fear and guilt" was being an Irish Catholic?

Interesting comment! And no, I'm not being sarcastic. I also felt fear & guilt when I was a Christian..but my denomination was Southern Baptist. I don't think I'll ever return to theism in general, or Christianity in particular (IMO, atheism isn't so much of a "choice" as it is a "discovery". What has been learned cannot become "unlearned", regardless of what Yoda says )..but I think for the sake of conversation the matter of how different varieties of Christianity (or even theism in general) are expressed is something that should be considered. One of my favorite Joe Bageant posts was the one in which he described coming home to an empty house as a child, and thinking he'd been left behind. The description is found within a criticism of the "Left Behind" novels..I don't mean to insult Christians by posting it (be forewarned, ol Joe certainly meant to do so..be prepared!), I just want y'all to understand the various translations of the Christian tradition are very different. And some of them are not so nice.

http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2005/12/what_the_left_b.html

I consider myself fortunate that the Christians I've met on this board are much more thoughtful than those I've met elsewhere (including IRL, I live in the South! ). I'm curious, in an anthropological kind of way about your opinions upon the (to me) very different interpretations of your scriptures, and also, what you think about how such differences influence the thinking of people who do not share your religion (not just for atheists, but for theists who follow a different tradition).

friedgreencorrado wrote: What has been learned cannot become "unlearned", regardless of what Yoda says )..

Which reminds me of another Yoda quote. "Luminous beings are we... not this crude matter." So true, green puppet... so true.

People are pretty good at confusing church and religion with Christianity.

One of the best places to learn how NOT to be a Christian may be in church.

I am absolutely convinced that only a small minority of people who attend church and call themselves Christians actually are. Most have no idea who Christ is.

Fear and guilt are EXACTLY the opposite of Christianity. Fear is what is taught by people who are trying to control others and can't handle the freedom that Christ gives. They are themselves afraid of loosing control and trusting Christ to lead. They are trying to make gods of themselves, and have other people worship them (or at least ACT the way they think they should).

I can make a monkey or a dog act the way I think he should.

Engaging the fullness of another human being in all the wonder in which they were created (even if different than I think they should be) and enabling them to succeed and excel beyond everything they ever imagined possible with no consideration of one's self is frightening, exhilarating, and humbling. Very few church leaders ever accomplish this. Mostly because they are too busy building the church (buildings, programs, membership), and fail to notice the church is us.

In reply to friedgreencorrado:

I would say the variations in interpretation are due to a lack of understanding. The Bible is like an instruction manual on how to live. There are many that can't follow instructions, myself included. I don't think there is a person on Earth that fully understands what the Bible is telling us. The ones that are shouting they do just might be working for someone else.

I have a feeling that the Lord will know the "good" souls when the time comes, be they professed atheists or Christians. He will also know the "evil" no matter how many times a day they pray.

As SVreX said, going to church doesn't make you a Christian. Striving to be Christ like and accepting that he died for your sins is a start.

Toyman01 wrote: As SVreX said, going to church doesn't make you a Christian. Striving to be Christ like or Buddah like, or Ghandi like, or Mother Theresa like, or Moses like, or Isaiah like, or Mohammed like is a start.

FTFY

SVreX & Toyman:

Yes, I already understand that there are many different ways of expressing the Christian tradition, and that some are different than others.

I actually owe SVreX a debt..he was the first person (in a similar thread here, in fact!) that got me to understand that the entire "not a real Christian" (or similar feelings by adherents to other traditions) concept is not without value. I still consider it a logical fallacy, but the man helped me to realize that not all of the reality of life is a debate based upon logic. And furthermore, that our lives are usually more complicated than an "either-or" situation, when discussing what is important to an individual. I owe SVreX for showing me that there are still "shades of grey" on some philosophical questions..even if those particular questions are something I have personally discarded.

IIRC, his argument back then was whether I considered street racers, etc. as "real" enthusiasts just because they were just as passionate about high-performance driving as those of us who do it through safe/legal means. I had to concede that one!.. And honestly..hearing the concept ("..not a real X..") expressed within the arena of something I'm actually passionate about was probably the only way I could have understood it in the first place.

I'm really not trying to get Christians (or theists of any other stripe here) to state their apologia. I am no longer a Christian (whether "real" or otherwise.. ), and that will not change. I was simply curious about how those of you following different Christian traditions view the conflict between yourselves, and your opinions on whether or not such conflict is responsible for the decline in Christian adherents in the US over the last 20yrs or so.

Aside to Curtis73: Good shot, dude! But please recall that I was actually disagreeing with Yoda when I made that comment..

Aside to Javelin: My most profound apologies for continuing to support the hijacking of your thread. I've either got a bad case of the Stockholm syndrome..or I've just been drinking. Let Occam's Razor do it's work!

And after that..remember: SLEEP WHEN THE BABY SLEEPS! The first couple of months, that's all you (and she) will actually get.