In reply to 02Pilot :
2nd paragraph? Sorry it isn't in perfect comprehensive language. I understood what I wrote perfectly. 🤪
In reply to 02Pilot :
2nd paragraph? Sorry it isn't in perfect comprehensive language. I understood what I wrote perfectly. 🤪
In reply to AMiataCalledSteve :
I did that too, at first, but it didn't help a lot. This is the first semester I'm giving them links to check their own work before submitting it (imperfect, I know, but it puts a certain degree of responsibility on them, and removes plausible deniability) - it remains to be seen how well it addresses the problem.
In reply to Ranger50 :
Fair enough. We've all written things that seemed very clear, as long as we were the ones reading them. 
Reading this thread makes me very happy that I am not a student these days.
I would think AI would be the bane of every professor and teacher. Just think, a bunch of students that no nothing more than typing two words into an AI search engine to generate a report.... which may or may not contain factual information.
In reply to triumph7 :
Interestingly enough, one of my seminar classes selected as the topic for their next in-class debate the following: Resolved: AI is dangerous and must be regulated. They suggest a range of topics, then the class votes to choose; I have nothing to do with it. They are responsible for their own research, but I know that the Google Gemini fiasco has been part of the conversation.
Reading this thread reminds me of why I dropped out of high school. I'm still certain that was the smartest thing I've ever done in my life. The education system was crap in the 80s with the college-for-everyone mantra. I should have been taking shop classes, not AP English and physics.
Listening to my kids and grandkids talk, it has only gotten worse. No child left behind just means none of them get ahead. Instead of letting the kids that do well, excel and move ahead, we hold everyone down to the lowest standard. Then when they get to college, they have no clue what they are doing so we lower those standards as well. It's like a study in the worst way to do a thing.
Toyman! said:Reading this thread reminds me of why I dropped out of high school. I'm still certain that was the smartest thing I've ever done in my life. The education system was crap in the 80s with the college-for-everyone mantra. I should have been taking shop classes, not AP English and physics.
Listening to my kids and grandkids talk, it has only gotten worse. No child left behind just means none of them get ahead. Instead of letting the kids that do well, excel and move ahead, we hold everyone down to the lowest standard. Then when they get to college, they have no clue what they are doing so we lower those standards as well. It's like a study in the worst way to do a thing.
I agree except for physics (and all the other STEM courses). Physics tells you how life mechanically works so that's kind of important.
In reply to Toyman! :
You're not wrong. I tell my survey classes on day one that if all they care about is getting a job and making money (and most of them are in this category), they should go be a plumber or a welder or a machinist. It's not enough to dissuade most of them, but at least I feel better knowing someone told them before they got too deep into things.
Students get out of college what they put into it, no matter what school, degree program, or level. Many students simply haven't learned how to learn, either from apathy, indifference, or neglect, and college is a poor place to find that out.
In reply to 02Pilot :
It's all tv and video games fault.
In reply to triumph7 :
It's not. I haven't used anything learned in physics, algebra, biology, PE, English, Spanish, French or any STEM subject in my job in 38 years and I probably make a good bit more than the average engineer. Only 24% of the workforce are in STEM-related fields. The manager at the grocery store doesn't need physics or biology to keep his shelves stocked. The guy that mows your grass doesn't either. I did take a keyboarding class that has helped. I type faster than the average person. I also took a drafting class that has been helpful when it comes to doing shop drawings. Beyond that, most of what I did in HS was waste time and learn to despise a system that had no place for me. My brain isn't wired to sit in a class and memorize bullE36 M3 I'll never use. Instead of recognizing the fact that many people are wired that way, society has labeled them, drugged them, and forced them into a mold that society says is normal. The education system is broken and has been broken for years. While STEM courses are important for many kids and all of them should get an introduction to it, it isn't an answer. It's just another mold to force kids into.
02Pilot said:In reply to Toyman! :
You're not wrong. I tell my survey classes on day one that if all they care about is getting a job and making money (and most of them are in this category), they should go be a plumber or a welder or a machinist. It's not enough to dissuade most of them, but at least I feel better knowing someone told them before they got too deep into things.
Students get out of college what they put into it, no matter what school, degree program, or level. Many students simply haven't learned how to learn, either from apathy, indifference, or neglect, and college is a poor place to find that out.
From where I'm standing, school isn't about teaching children how to learn. It's about meeting a metric so the local school system gets paid. It's about babysitting children so parents can work. Teaching children how to learn is way down the list which is kind of my point.
Edit to say: I love to learn. I've read the entire Encyclopedia Britannica from end to end. The internet is a godsend from my standpoint simply because there is so much to learn. If you asked me what my favorite hobby is, it would be learning. I jump from subject to subject like a bee in a field of wildflowers because every new subject is the opportunity to learn something new. From Bonsai to gas turbines. From fish to fishing. Build a house? Yep. Build a race car. Affirmative. Fly? Certainly. Race boats? Yes. Name it, I've probably tried it just so I could learn about it.
School isn't there to teach a person to learn and that was the biggest letdown of all.
Honestly I see the spread of AI as being a "great filter" if you can build a tool that actually can spot and filter those who are using it to write papers. Let's say your assignment is something you know- since you do it to yourself- is a short paper that will take 20-30 minutes to complete with no minimum word count BS. If someone jacks it into AI instead of ripping one out quick (especially if it's horribly incorrect, because AI cannot really identify information from misinformation), you know you're dealing with someone who's not gonna bother putting in the work.
In reply to Toyman! :
Yes, but that's for YOU and that worked for YOU.
In reply to Toyman! :
Rote memorization is the lowest possible form of education, agreed. The increase in that is, to some extent, an unforeseen consequence of standards-based teaching.
But raising well-rounded students is important, too.
The system must make an effort to expose all students to everything, at least at a survey level.
Otherwise it's moving a step closer to issuing you a color-coded jumpsuit as you are assigned your lifetime career path based on the state-mandated aptitude test given when you are 12.
In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :
You are right. But, it also worked that way for many of my friends from HS as well.
I could use a little statistics help here. Of the HS graduates, 62% go to college. Of those, 40% don't finish their degree. So, it looks like about 35% actually graduate from college with a 4 year degree? You'll have to check my math. I never took statistics.
It seems that not graduating from college works for most people.
Duke said:In reply to Toyman! :
Rote memorization is the lowest possible form of education, agreed. The increase in that is, to some extent, an unforeseen consequence of standards-based teaching.
But raising well-rounded students is important, too.
The system must make an effort to expose all students to everything, at least at a survey level.
Otherwise it's moving a step closer to issuing you a color-coded jumpsuit as you are assigned your lifetime career path based on the state-mandated aptitude test given when you are 12.
Agreed, 100%. As I stated somewhere above, grade schools need to introduce all students to all things. Rote memorization is the worst possible way I can think of to do that. It's how we end up with 10% of our kids as drugged-out ADHD kids.
I am sure I was ADHD or one of those things but they were not called that when I was in school,
Smart and bored gets you in trouble :)
But it also helps to be a self starter , that you are interested in how things work , and then go to the library and check out a bunch of books to figure it out .....
I am not sure how I would be today if I was young again and back at school , probably too many distractions with the cable TV , video games etc
No simple answers
OHSCrifle said:Apparently this school is using TurnItIn. Probably has the checker built in to their "college" portal where syllabi and assignments get are all hosted and posted.
To be continued.
So the professor replied saying the department offered the use a different "checker" and the second one found the writing to be clean. Grade changed from 0 to 100 with an "apology for how frustrating this must have been". It appears that contacting the professor and asking for some clarity was worth the effort.
This is a neuroscience class and the paper was on cockroaches.
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In reply to OHSCrifle :
Students should always communicate with their professors, but so many of them don't. Granted, some professors do not make themselves readily available, but most are more willing to discuss things with students than most students realize. I tell my students over and over to talk to me if they have any questions or concerns, and only a minority do so unless they're in grave danger of failing, and then it's often after it's too late in the semester to do anything about it.
In reply to 02Pilot :
I never spoke with college professors. Except with one who bought beers. I tried to be anonymous mostly. By age 45 I probably had developed the maturity necessary to participate in university classes. Perhaps 5% of 18 year olds are ready (in my opinion).
My kid reluctantly takes some of dad's advice. Occasionally.
In reply to Toyman! :
Even if you don't think you are using physics the base understanding is still working. When you're working at the grocery store you need that base of, say, how to stack 457 cartons of beer so they spell out "superbowl" without falling over and killing 3 cashiers. OK, a bit silly but it makes my point.
In reply to OHSCrifle :
You were a typical college student, and I think your assessment is by and large accurate; my older students are certainly more likely to be active participants. I do everything I can to encourage all of my students to be more engaged with me and their classmates, but there's only so much I can do.
triumph7 said:In reply to Toyman! :
Even if you don't think you are using physics the base understanding is still working.
I got a lot of value out of much of my highschool and college education. Not necessarily in terms of using the exact things practiced, but certainly base level skills that transferred over.
Sort of like learning how to drive on a track making me a better driver on the street. I don't use my skill trail braking or knowing how to hit an apex - but I absolutely use what I've practiced looking farther ahead, planning a route, having smooth control inputs, etc.
My basic high school science (chemistry, biology, and physics) and lower math (algebra 1, geometry, and trigonometry) gave me the background I needed for brewmaster school. I constantly use basic algebra for calculating dilution and dosing ratios. I don't remember the equations from statistics, but understanding a normal distribution and standard deviation is invaluable.
My undergrad degree was in English with a focus on education. It's served me really well as a brewmaster. Those "useless" poetry classes I took? I write really good product descriptions. It's surprisingly difficult to write something that short that has to clearly and accurately describe something as subjective as flavor, and emotionally hook a customer to want to try something.
Perhaps the single most valuable education was drama classes throughout high school. All the work to put on plays, learning how to speak in front of people, basic carpentry, electronics, operating a light/sound board. Getting to literally direct peers.
There were certainly things that I was taught that didn't prove valuable to me. There were things that are valuable for me that weren't for someone else. Pointing only to the stuff that wasn't valuable to discount the whole experience is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
In reply to triumph7 :
I never took physics so I'm pretty sure stacking blocks in kindergarten taught me more about stacking boxes than a class I never took.
The most memorable thing my teachers taught me after 5th grade was to hate school.
02Pilot said:They're just tools, and they're only as good as the person using them.
This.
My brother (12 years older than me) is an EE, and I am am ME. When I was struggling through one of my Calculus classes, I said to him "why do I need to know this? I'll just use a computer to get the answer!" His reply?
"who's gonna check the computer?"
that was in 1985 or so.
02Pilot said:In reply to VolvoHeretic :
My high school chemistry teacher had a bumper sticker on his El Camino that said it all: "When all else fails, lower your standards".
My Dad used to tell me when he knew I was headed to a bar: "it's OK to have standards. And it's OK to lower them."
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