Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:My Father tried to stop drinking cold turkey in his late 60s after many years of drinking heavily. He ended up in the ER with Delierium Tremons (the DTs) and almost died there. My mother thought he was having a heart attack and called the ambulance. In some cases it is a serious physical addiction.
And it's kind of messed up there is a Belgium brewery that has a beer named "Delerium Tremens"
It's a great beer though.
There is a secularAA organization. I don't have any experience with it, but if religion is a significant sticking point it may be worth a look. If the bigger issue is the structure of the program as a whole, well, that's probably still about the same. They're related organizations.
Stoicism.
Achieve eudainonia by thoroughly integrating the mantra that you cannot control what is happening around you, only your response to it.
This is the path to inner peace.
I spoke with a friend about AA and how the groups vary regionally. This person had a unique perspective having attended AA meetings here as well as other places. Their take on AA groups in my area was more or less that they were NOT representative examples of what AA really is.
The ones I went to were full of really "hardened" people. Ankle monitors, prison tats, heroin tracks, signs of crack and meth use. Just not a crowd I related to, and it almost felt like it was being with people that made my drinking look healthy by comparison. I'm glad they're getting help, and they deserve every bit of peace that everyone else does, but I felt like the influence was negative to my situation.
Every meeting I went to also required that the religious parts of the readings were kept verbatim, as if AA had a specific rule that it had to be. Some readers would squirm or mumble, but that was frowned upon. Every meeting started and ended with a prayer to a very Christian deity, using words like Jesus and God.
Fortunately this friend sent me some resources for zoom meetings where I can join a meeting pretty much anywhere in the world.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
I can understand why you don't want AA; they demand that you recite that you're powerless to alcohol and only god can fix you, which is... honestly against the bible and the teachings of Christ. I remember there was a Penn and Teller episode of BullE36 M3! about it where they followed a non-secular AA variant, but I couldn't tell you what it was.
I just wanted to point out, and I don't think anyone else has: One of the basic requirements of behavioral health care is that the patient has to be aware of their issue and want to get better. This of course is a giant issue with most types of forced care.
That is to say, you have already made a giant first step and it bodes well for your eventual recovery.
Good luck to you sir.
My wife rarely drinks. Nothing against it, it's just not her bag.
My ex-wife was not that way, and neither was I when we were together.
Eventually after dating my now-wife for long enough, and then getting married, I decided that in general, I would only drink WITH people.
So if a few of us are out on the boat, have a beer or two!
Going to poker night? Bring a six-pack!
Just at home chilling with the family in the evening? Bubbly watter and some bitters, or lemon juice. Still tastes BIG, but it doesn't get me buzzed.
It's left all those feelings that used to be numbed a lot more available, but that meant just talking a LOT more with my wife about them, and friends.
I believe in you, and if you need an ear, reach out I'm here.
Thought I'd give an update.
Doctor did a bunch of blood tests and didn't see anything that indicated my drinking was doing any damage, other than triglycerides being stupidly high, but that's been a chronic thing for me for decades. I was very candid with him and he didn't seem to think the word "alcoholic" applied to my situation. Follow up bloodwork in 3 months.
I've been drinking a lot less this week with little consequence other than taking a while to get to sleep, and it sure does help with clarity during the day.
Tomorrow is my therapist appt and I'll update more.
Have you considered electrical and cooling system diagnosing for relaxation and therapeutic purposes?
It may make me want to punch walls, but other people may enjoy it.
A few unrelated thoughts, maybe only semi-related to your specific challenge:
-A buddy decided to stop drinking in an effort to slim down to fit in a race seat. A very GRM reason to stop the sauce. He's done well with the bitters and soda water suggestion I've seen mentioned more than once in this thread. He's like 8mo in, and 60lb down from where he started (made diet and lifestyle changes beyond just dropping the beer).
-Wife is an MD and has strongly negative views on AA that are backed by peer reviewed studies. I'll leave it at that.
-I'm an IPA man, myself. There are some reasonable NA and low ABV IPA's these days. And this is coming from someone who prefers my IPA to really bite.
Wish you success, however you get there.
So, I suck at stuff like this. I've written in posts on here before so I'm sure most of you are aware of that, so try to read my posts thinking that I'm posting it with the best intentions in case I fumble it a bit.
While I think that being self aware is a great thing you do mention that you checked up with a therapist to make sure you were doing the right thing on a few different topics.That can also be thought of as a lack of self confidence, maybe ask yourself why you need someone else to tell you that you are doing stuff right? I'm not sure how this helps except that I noticed it and it hasn't been mentioned yet.
Alcohol actually doesn't help you sleep, it actually does the opposite, it does help you relax though. Substituting something that does help you relax for alcohol is probably best all around, it can be anything. Personally I like white noise generators and I got a cool light recently that basically displays ever moving nebulas on my ceiling. It's very relaxing to me.
It sounds like your doctor isn't worried about the level of alcohol you are drinking health wise, so that means we aren't in dangerous physical dependence. This kinda leads back to the confidence in self from earlier in my post. Bluntly, you may actually be going exactly what you need to be doing and it's well within your power to do so. It also could be that you crave punishment/pain/misery/ because you crave IPAs
Alcohol in itself isn't evil and unfortunately a lot of AA related things seem to deal with it as some sort of Satanic force constantly out to get you. Alcohol for some people is the symptom, not the effect, it's the person that's the problem. I totally get why you aren't jiving with that.
I'm lucky that I have a healthy relationship with alcohol, I have had members of my family literally drink themselves to death and several barely functioning alcoholics. It might be the reason why I don't let it control me and have basically a ridiculous level of self control. I drink when I want and when it doesn't get in the way of life, could be scotch at 7 am, could be not drinking for a month, could be having 13 MaiTai's on a sunset cruise.
So basically........I think you are well on your way to doing what you want to , you just need to believe in yourself a lot more.
Spearfishin said:-I'm an IPA man, myself. There are some reasonable NA and low ABV IPA's these days. And this is coming from someone who prefers my IPA to really bite.
As a brewer... IPA actually lends itself well to a non-Alcohol style. Hop bitterness and hop aroma are both completely separate from alcohol production (with one minor, really sciencey caveat).
Glad you and the doc think you're not actually alcoholic. I obviously don't think that alcohol is the devil. Even if you are not drinking to an unhealthy volume, it still sounds like you need to figure out how to cut it out before bed so it doesn't hurt your sleep quality.
Good luck.
In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
Haaa.... that's actually not a bad idea, but I can't come down until next weekend.
Antihero said:So, I suck at stuff like this. I've written in posts on here before so I'm sure most of you are aware of that, so try to read my posts thinking that I'm posting it with the best intentions in case I fumble it a bit.
While I think that being self aware is a great thing you do mention that you checked up with a therapist to make sure you were doing the right thing on a few different topics.That can also be thought of as a lack of self confidence, maybe ask yourself why you need someone else to tell you that you are doing stuff right? I'm not sure how this helps except that I noticed it and it hasn't been mentioned yet.
Alcohol actually doesn't help you sleep, it actually does the opposite, it does help you relax though. Substituting something that does help you relax for alcohol is probably best all around, it can be anything. Personally I like white noise generators and I got a cool light recently that basically displays ever moving nebulas on my ceiling. It's very relaxing to me.
It sounds like your doctor isn't worried about the level of alcohol you are drinking health wise, so that means we aren't in dangerous physical dependence. This kinda leads back to the confidence in self from earlier in my post. Bluntly, you may actually be going exactly what you need to be doing and it's well within your power to do so. It also could be that you crave punishment/pain/misery/ because you crave IPAs
Alcohol in itself isn't evil and unfortunately a lot of AA related things seem to deal with it as some sort of Satanic force constantly out to get you. Alcohol for some people is the symptom, not the effect, it's the person that's the problem. I totally get why you aren't jiving with that.
I'm lucky that I have a healthy relationship with alcohol, I have had members of my family literally drink themselves to death and several barely functioning alcoholics. It might be the reason why I don't let it control me and have basically a ridiculous level of self control. I drink when I want and when it doesn't get in the way of life, could be scotch at 7 am, could be not drinking for a month, could be having 13 MaiTai's on a sunset cruise.
So basically........I think you are well on your way to doing what you want to , you just need to believe in yourself a lot more.
Thanks for the input. I have a completely different take on therapy. Chatting out things in your life that bother you can be done in your own head like a diary, but having someone trained in mental health topics means that you often get advice that comes from someone with experience. Self-aware doesn't mean I'm good at self-diagnosis. Therapy is like a diary that diagnoses problems and has feedback.
It's also nice to have someone tell me I'm not crazy 
.... or warn me that I am.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
I think you are crazy, but you're our type of crazy.
Spitballing...
If the alcohol is making you relax, xanax might work better. But be careful you aren't trading one bad habit for another - xanax is addictive. (and doctors don't like to prescribe it for sleep issues, ymmv)
As mentioned above, I think meditation is a great way of shutting off the chattering squirrels in your head and reducing your overall stress level if you can do it.
And finally, psychedelics have been used with good success in treating alcoholism. You'd need to find a trial (and given your fairly light use, your probably wouldn't be eligible) or travel to someplace where it's legal. IIRC Michael Pollan (the food guy) wrote a lot about this topic in his book "How to Change Your Mind". The guy that started AA, Bill Wilson, apparently kicked his alcohol habit after tripping. Somehow this doesn't make it into the AA origin story.
If AA works for someone, then good for them. I think.
i know someone who has a terrible time with substances. Whole family does. She did AA and NA. They "worked" for her, but in a way also messed her up a bit. The people in the group were parasites that led to a host of other mental trauma.
it does not treat the cause. That allows for some real nasty "falling off".
i would not consider you an alcoholic at all. I was the same way. Alcohol was the thing that let me relax enough to be social and talk. The real issue for me was undiagnosed TERRIBLE anxiety, PTSD and ADHD. A few beers let me jump over that stuff and "enjoy" doing things.
You are on the right path. Therapy is wonderful. Nobody should be afraid of whats in their head. Talk it out, maybe some EMDR.
Good Luck Curtis! May your voyage be as beautiful as your hair!
jwagner (Forum Supporter) said:Spitballing...
If the alcohol is making you relax, xanax might work better. But be careful you aren't trading one bad habit for another - xanax is addictive. (and doctors don't like to prescribe it for sleep issues, ymmv)
Speak to a Dr. about this. They can offer better guidance. Xannax is a pretty extreme conclusion and is generally not used as much for sleep issues because it has the same problems as alcohol: it helps you fall asleep, but greatly reduces quality of sleep.
I got a prescription from my Dr. for Hydroxyzine to take as needed to help fall asleep. It is an antihistamine and produces a similar drowsiness response as Benadryl and others, but is unique in also having anti-anxiety properties to help calm racing thoughts. I still try not to rely on it.
The big thing is that you want a drug with a short half-life in your system so it knocks you out but then clears most of the way out before you hit deep sleep cycles.
Your Dr. can help decide if and what medications would be right for you to try.
I strongly suspect what you need is a ritual before going to bed. Some series of things you do more or less the same way every time that help your body and mind recognize that it's time to sleep. You've used alcohol to do this because preparing and drinking a drink is a ritual, and the alcohol produces physiological responses that reinforce this idea. You need to find a series of activities that perform the same functions without alcohol's damage to sleep quality.
I had a good, candid talk with my therapist today. She asked a bunch of follow-up questions and she had a similar take on the consumption as a lazy (and dumb) soothing method, but she never used the word alcoholic. I told her I don't think I am, but I'm going scorched earth and fessing up for accountability.
I've left the stigmas and shame behind. I didn't want the label of alcoholic on my care providers' charts, but I'm done with hiding it, so if it's there, it's there. Thank YOU all for helping me with this.
I continue to taper off with no side effects other than having trouble sleeping, but my body will figure it out.
I know this might sound like a joke, but I am serious that I have done this before.
Long college lectures. If they are about a topic that you are not DIRECTLY interested in, but more passively, they can work to help you wind down without giving the bad inner narratives oxygen of silence.
MIT open courseware is my favorite source.
Realization that a behavior has become problematic and the willpower to enact a plan to overcome it are good indicators. If it makes you feel better, my wife and I are constantly trying to be sure that we don't let our having alcohol to wind down after the kids are in bed doesn't grow into a habit of more than once or twice a week. Critical mass for us was when I got us a whiskey advent calendar. It was awesome, but... setting a course of whiskey every night before bed... well, we made it partway through and now just do one (from last Decembers calendar) every now and again.
BOTH sets of my grandparents would consume in excess of 4 drinks a night. Usually manhattans, scotch, etc. Visibly drunk by bedtime. Every night. I dont want to fall into that.
In reply to Apexcarver :
Those lectures sound like a fine idea. Similarly, I sometimes go to YouTube and dial up something in which I am at least partially interested and let it play while I sort of pay attention. Old (typically WWII era) military training material on Periscope Film is oddly effective. Something about the tone and cadence of delivery is exceptionally conducive to peaceful sleep. Plus you might accidentally pick up some handy tips on hand-to-hand combat or learn how a tank's planetary transmission works, and who knows when that might come in handy?
EastsideTim mentioned caffeine a while back. You have probably already looked into it, but if not, it could be a big factor. I hosed my sleep last night by drinking a can of Coke and a cup of coffee in the afternoon, deciding I just wasn't going to perk up without a nap, then pounding another Coke after the nap. So instead of sleeping soundly I ended up flopping around and waking up every couple of hours.
It's hard as hell to break a cycle of drinking too much caffeine to compensate for a bad night's sleep caused by too much caffeine. Just another possible factor, I guess.
Another simple thing to try (if you haven't): Exercise
Exercise, if you do enough, should make it much easier to sleep. I think it is generally better to do the exercise without outside stimulus if you can (e.g. not with music / TV) so it also serves as a bit of meditation session, but I am sure exersize alone will be a big help.
Anything that hyper focuses you can also serve as a bit of a "meditation light". One silly example is a racing game. The concentration required makes it impossible to think of anything else (the same general concept as meditation). In the GRM Assetto Corsa league for example it is very common for someone talking to quickly run themselves off the course. You need full concentration, and thus no other thoughts (work etc) get in. If I am having issues falling asleep, one of my tactics is to go over a recent game or race in my head.
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