Am I really unemployable???

This is just getting silly. Anyone who actually went to college knows there is more to it then Jell-O shots and keg stands. It does not matter what your course of study was, because what matters is the connections that you make. I hate to say this, but maybe the people having a problem with higher education are the ones who resent not going. Go back or don’t it’s your choice, but stop bitching about people who are better off because they went.
If you know your better at your job then the people above you quit and start your own company.
I know a lot of people without a college education that make a hell of a lot more money than people with degrees, but they also busted their asses to get there. They didn’t sit around bitching and crying about being held back.

triumph7 wrote: After being laid off in April '09, I've only gotten 2 interviews. When I asked about compensation at the second one, I had to tell them not to bother. $12 to $14 to rebuild jet engine parts! (Think about that the next time you climb in for your next vacation!). There are no jobs in aviation, at least none that you could live on.

Amen brother.

I'm a ticketed AME (AMT is what you 'mericans call it) and I got out of the industry because of the awful pay.

I make more money doing quality control and r&d work for a company that imports cheap chinese tools and machinery.

XD:

The company I worked for hired me as an apprentice out of highschool. 5 years later I wrote my exams and got my ticket. We hired a guy I went to school with who went to tech college to get his ticket.

I spent my 5 years making money and knew how to do my job blindfolded by the end of it.

He spent 3 years digging himself into debt in school and 2 years as an apprentice like me to come out less skilled in the same amount of time.

I don't know about office work but in the trades, it's best to learn by doing.

If I paid money to to got to school, then sit in a cubicle all day, I'd put a bullet in my head.

Shawn

In reply to 4cylndrfury:

If you can't stand the heat, GTFO of the kitchen.

DrBoost wrote:

jdub13101 wrote: As a (former?) manager, a degree indicates to me that the job applicant completed four years at something, whether he or she liked the classes, or the teachers, or the work, whatever. Did he or she achieve the goal, yes or no. Just one indicator he or she would be a good employee.

Well, even though I don't have a degree I can show that I can complete 4 years, plus 16 of actual work, not doing keg-stands and jello shots at frat parties. While some punk was getting his degree on middle-eastern culture I was building prototype engines, or repairing cars or writing service manuals. That's what I'm getting at. Like others have (more eloquently) said, a degree (especially since they don't usually care what the degree is) does not mean the person can do the job. It does mean they can sit through a boring or challenging class. Why is it that work experience means nothing anymore?

Oh cry me a river. This is lamer than the "why GM will still fail" thread. I busted my ASS in the military to EARN some money so I could afford to go to college, where I busted my ASS some more to go to school full time, WORK full time, and still have a life afterwords. My previous manager had 25+ years of experience "in the same position" and I could literally run rings around him.

Life isn't fair. If you resent the degree holder, become a degree holder.

Trans_Maro wrote: If I paid money to to got to school, then sit in a cubicle all day, I'd put a bullet in my head.

Totally agree. I like working in trades, the corporate world and I just wouldn't get along. Though I do tire of explaining to people (especially family members) why someone "as smart as me" likes doing manual labor.

bamalama wrote: manual labor.

I love that term.

Manual labour is what you end up STILL doing when your 40 because you knocked up a cheerleader and dropped out of highschool.

Skilled trades is something completely different than smashing boxes in a warehouse.

When they ask why someone "as smart as you" is doing what you're doing, ask them how much it's worth to them to get their electricity back on, their toilet working again or have their car start when it's -20.

I've tried explaining that to the bosses kid at work and he doesn't get it at all. He's better because daddy is sending him to business school.

Never mind that he will fail at that too because all he knows how to do is play football.

He'd better make six figures because he needs to pay a guy like me lots of money to teach him lefty-loosey.

To the O.P:

I hired my last guy becuase he showed lots of drive and initiative both in the interview and on his resume.

He also showed a variety of diverse skills.

He helped start an estate agency in the UK, did carpentry for an elevator company and worked for a Pontiac dealer teaching the old guys how to use the online part system.

I've had him for a month now and he's great. He can turn his hand to pretty much anything. I don't need to babysit him or kick him in the ass every 5 minutes to keep him focused.

He's a highschool grad with work experience like me plus he's a farm kid so he knows how to work hard.

Shawn

Type Q wrote: Regarding the post about corporations seeing employees as the enemy, corporate America doesn't actively hate you. However it doesn't love you either.

"Aye, there's the rub..."
That's actually my point. I help make the company what it is, and my effort and skill helps keep it profitable. It should love me, if I'm one of the people that keeps the profit rolling in.

Type Q wrote: Any publicly traded company is going to be forced by its shareholders to treat you as a means to an end.

Most emphatically agreed....just as the "robber barons" of the late 19th-early 20th century treated their own employees during the early days of the Industrial Revolution in the US.

http://www.online-literature.com/upton_sinclair/jungle/

I just never had the imagination to consider that such people would eventually consider the "professional" class in the same way that they'd treated unskilled labor for all these years.

Type Q wrote: I think it is really unfortunate, but right now a job is a business transaction. You sell you time and abilities. They give a check.

I agree again, but I'm beginning to think that many of our problems as a nation stem from that unfortunate truth.

Type Q, I'm not trying to "flame" you, or belittle your opinions...I'm just trying to get everyone to look at the "big picture". Of course, I realize doing such a thing's just a luxury for someone who doesn't have a job at the moment. Two of our networks are being "outsourced" to Argentina in November (never thought it would happen to a non-manufacturing job, but broadcast/satellite technology gets better every day)...I'll probably be facing unemployment at that time as well.

Stilll not selling any of the cars until I'm actually laid off!

If anything, enduring what i have means i indeed can stand the heat, never said i couldnt.

I think there is some confusion. No one in the "no degree" camp is calling out degree holders, just the corporations who make that degree the yes/no switch. Its not a sole distinguisher of candidacy.

I had more, but its early and i dont want to ruin the rest of my day. No amount of finger pointing and arguing will have any real impact. Its just a shame. Ive got respect for a lot of the people here. Once again i got sucked into another one of "those threads". Im not going to get all pissy over this. People just need an open mind.

Corporate America sucks. And I say that being a capitalist.

Wandering OT: I'd like to tell these over-educated know-nothings to stick it and go into business for myself, but the way things are currently, it's far too expensive and therefore risky for me to even try. Health insurance costs too much (no, I don't want the govt taking care of it either), taxation for the self-employed is HIGHER than the average worker (let's punish entrepreneurs) and should you need to hire employees the complexity with regulations shoots skyward.

Corporate American knows we are clinging to jobs we don't like and doesn't care. My current employer is really treating us like stupid children right now and it's very degrading, but in this climate I can't retain my pride and just quit to do something else. And it doesn't matter if I have a degree or not.

4cylndrfury wrote: corrado is my effing hero! Ive been saying that about my corporate HR mafioso for years now. I owe $16k for a degree I never finished - because I dont get along with school. I am another one of those documented higher IQ types, and my whole life was told I needed to apply myself more and "If youd spend half the energy on school that you put into your *bmx/music/art/cars/etc* [take your pick], youd do sooo much better in your classes" yadah yaddah. I too hear it all the time about not having my degree...but you know what, I shouldnt need that. I outperform most in my site, and am not nearly the highest paid. Theres no where for me to go at this point, and Im hoping that just putting in the time will be sufficient. Most jobs that I look at say "bachelors degree or equivalent background in the industry" and Im banking on the equivalent part...but now it looks like too much time can be just as bad. I think the jobless masses will eventually begin working for themselves or unite to form small businesses. I have a feeling the big boxes will eventually crumble and fall as more and more small businesses and family run operations will be able to offer better customer service and maybe even bartering once money begins to lose its value compared to "stuff"...."I got some tomatoes, I see your starving, and I need that intake manifold you got on that shelf". It wont be long Im afraid!

I think we're in the same boat. I just got lucky and landed a job where you can get your foot in the door without a degree, then the "equivalent background" will carry you pretty damn far.

I just have to work way harder for my money for the first 5 years or so before i catch up to the people with a degree. No biggie.

Trans Maro: I'm not surprised that you hired the guy you did, because you aren't blinded by the need for a degree like most.
And to clear a few things up, I AM going to get my stupid piece of paper but the point is I shouldn't HAVE to. I'm not saying I can't get a job because I don't know enough. What I've been saying all along (did you actually READ my posts P71) is that I can no longer get the exact jobs I've had for years now simply because I don't have a degree.
So, here's the scenario. I was a technical writer/trainer for years. I've been laid off. Now I can't get a job as a technical writer/trainer........with the exact same product and the exact same market because I don't have a degree. That lack of a degree didn't stop me from being hired before and it didn't hinder my job performance at all. And no I wasn't laid off because of job performance it was salary based. None of the guys that are left at my old company have degrees.
So in the meantime I need to work while I get that degree since I have a wife and kids. So, what do I do? I figure "Heck, I'm still ASE certified and work on cars all the time in my garage. I'll go to a dealership and get a job to pay the bills." WRONG! See, because I've had "professional jobs" I can't get a job at a dealer/shop because they are afraid I'll scoot at the first "professional job" that comes along. This is what makes me unemployable. And to a guy that has worked since he was 16 (now 37) it's hard to think that I can't find a job regardless of my experiences.

Do I resent degree holders? No. Do I wish I had gotten a degree? Yes of course. Do I resent any of your folks? He!! no! I hope each and every one of you has a great job and builds a challenge car that is just a little slower and uglier than mine so I can place high

In reply to Ranger50:

Well, that's a sparkling attitude to have. It really makes me worry for the future of our society when folks chalk up things like math to a column that is labeled "that aren't going to lead to anything productive towards a degree." Maybe if you had stuck it out for more than one class you would have found out that there is a lot of usable information in a ME degree. You don't design the space shuttle by hitting stuff with a hammer.

friedgreencorrado wrote: ...I help make the company what it is, and my effort and skill helps keep it profitable. It *should* love me, if I'm one of the people that keeps the profit rolling in.

I don't disagree with you and I am not defending the way things are. Businesses exist to serve people's needs and desires. Money is earned by being of service to people. Business is all about people. That seems to be forgotten on a regular basis

friedgreencorrado wrote: Type Q, I'm not trying to "flame" you, or belittle your opinions...I'm just trying to get everyone to look at the "big picture". Of course, I realize doing such a thing's just a luxury for someone who doesn't have a job at the moment. Two of our networks are being "outsourced" to Argentina in November (never thought it would happen to a non-manufacturing job, but broadcast/satellite technology gets better every day)...I'll probably be facing unemployment at that time as well. Stilll not selling any of the cars until I'm actually laid off!

No offense taken. My comments were intended as observations of what is, rather than advocating that this the way it should be.

1. Saying that all a degree proves is that you can collect a piece of paper is about as stupid as saying that folks without a degree are useless idiots.

2. Your biggest challenge, whether valid or not, is that you are going to be interviewing with folks who do have a degree. That means that you're trying to convince someone that they wasted 4 years of their life and tens of thousands of dollars. That's not an easy sell.

3. Yes - like it or not, and valid or not, a lot of the "degrees are just paper" posts come off as very "chip on shoulder".

mblommel wrote: In reply to Ranger50: Well, that's a sparkling attitude to have. It really makes me worry for the future of our society when folks chalk up things like math to a column that is labeled "that aren't going to lead to anything productive towards a degree." Maybe if you had stuck it out for more than one class you would have found out that there is a lot of usable information in a ME degree. You don't design the space shuttle by hitting stuff with a hammer.

Actually let me explain a bit deeper. Math is a joke in engineering, IMO. It isn't about the math, because you don't use a lot of the math higher then algebra, it's about the critical thinking involved. Plus it is an underhanded weed out the slackers way of getting rid of the ones who wanted to fix the world's problems. What really irked myself was that I have had to take trig classes 3! damn times, calc 1 twice, same with calc 2. I took trig in my HS junior year and passed it, then took calc1 my senior year at a completely different school system, as my school didn't even offer it and passed it. Yet when I get to MSU, I have to take trig yet again even after passing calc the previous year? GTFOH. I had to take trig for the third as the class from MSU didn't transfer to FSU. Easiest A out there. :rolleyes: Calc 2 I passed, but C-'s don't transfer. So maybe now you get my point of view as to why math doesn't do chit towards the degree.

Maybe my advisor berkeleyed me over, maybe she didn't. Maybe I should have told my advisor to fly a kite in a rainstorm, but it still doesn't change the past. But go look at the schedule for a ME @ Michigan State. Last time I looked, there aren't any engineering classes until your JUNIOR yr. So why stick around ruining MY future at a place that only wants my $, driving me into debt that out of school is nearly impossible to pay for?

Brian

PS- I am unemployable as I only have an AAS in MET even with 25 yrs of on and off experience working on cars and anything that is broke and needs to be fixed. if I had the magical bullE36 M3ers license, I'd be golden.

DrBoost wrote: And no I wasn't laid off because of job performance it was salary based. None of the guys that are left at my old company have degrees.

I wonder if this has more to do with your "unemployableness" than degrees and experience. Employers do not want to pay people much these days, and they might see someone who was accustomed to a certain level of income they have no desire to pay. Wages seem to be going down accross the board in both the public and private sectors. I suspect employers want to hire some fresh face that will do the same job for half what you would want to be paid, and still be thrilled about it.

Ranger50 wrote: Last time I looked, there aren't any engineering classes until your JUNIOR yr. So why stick around ruining MY future at a place that only wants my $, driving me into debt that out of school is nearly impossible to pay for? Brian

Usually the school is doing the student a favor by waiting until upper-division for specialized courses. Math credits are pretty universal should the student decide to switch majors, but something like mechanics of materials can only be applied to a few degree paths; not to mention they typically require the knowledge derived from the prerequisite math courses.

Paying for school does not have to create debt. In my case, I will downgrade my living situation, continue working full-time, and pay for classes out of pocket as I can afford them. These are small sacrifices for a valuable payout in the long-term.

For sure those 'stupid math classes' fed into the later 'real' classes. I distinctly remember doing surface integrals in signals.. and yes it totally sucked.

That being said I use about 1% of my actual degree on a regular basis. However, the skills I learned on my way to get it I use every day.

Ranger50 wrote: Actually let me explain a bit deeper. Math is a joke in engineering, IMO. It isn't about the math, because you don't use a lot of the math higher then algebra, it's about the critical thinking involved. Plus it is an underhanded weed out the slackers way of getting rid of the ones who wanted to fix the world's problems. What really irked myself was that I have had to take trig classes 3! damn times, calc 1 twice, same with calc 2. I took trig in my HS junior year and passed it, then took calc1 my senior year at a completely different school system, as my school didn't even offer it and passed it. Yet when I get to MSU, I have to take trig yet again even after passing calc the previous year? GTFOH. I had to take trig for the third as the class from MSU didn't transfer to FSU. Easiest A out there. :rolleyes: Calc 2 I passed, but C-'s don't transfer. So maybe now you get my point of view as to why math doesn't do chit towards the degree.

Well, there's your problem. Math IS the core of engineering, not a joke. Maybe in the modern design world, we may not use a lot of it, since there's these glorious CAD programs, but to belive them outright is not good, either. The math part gives you enough knowledge to put some critical equations in order on the fly, so that you can make sure that the answer makes sense.

When I was a TA at Michigan, I would tell my students that I would give them credit for knowing the numeric answer was wrong if it was wrong, and the rest of the answer was correct. Math on the fly is the key to that.

Moreso, knowing what the math MEANS is just as important. I'm sure you know F=ma, right? How does that translate into actual movement? Double integrate to get position, right? If you can do that quickly, you can get an idea of how good or bad answers are.

The fact that you dismiss it says a lot.

Maybe my advisor berkeleyed me over, maybe she didn't. Maybe I should have told my advisor to fly a kite in a rainstorm, but it still doesn't change the past. But go look at the schedule for a ME @ Michigan State. Last time I looked, there aren't any engineering classes until your JUNIOR yr. So why stick around ruining MY future at a place that only wants my $, driving me into debt that out of school is nearly impossible to pay for? Brian PS- I am unemployable as I only have an AAS in MET even with 25 yrs of on and off experience working on cars and anything that is broke and needs to be fixed. if I had the magical bullE36 M3ers license, I'd be golden.

Not sure what you were doing at MSU, I was taking an engineering class as a freshman at Idaho, and was teaching mostly sophomores Satics at Michigan.

For those of you who started, and then walked away from college, I would no hire you at all- why? Since you tend to walk away when you get "bored"- if that really means bored, or lazy, or not able- doesn't matter to me. I don't see the reason to hire someone to do a job when they seem likely to leave whenever they want- would be a major waste in training, especially if you took that to anywhere else.

If you REALLY think college was about jello shots and beer, and getting drunk- wow. The people I know who did that in earnest had to leave school. Think of it another way- for those of us who put in 4-10 years of our lives toward a degree of some type, employers see that as a person who is willing to commit to something for a long time- there may be dedication in that person. I'm not saying there IS- but if I was given two people who I really don't know squat about, then the degree means something. Employers have so little to go on that they have to balance risks vs. rewards- that's one major reason for the extra on degrees.

I know morons who have PhD's, too. But even them- that's a completely different level of dedication.

Doc- I feel for you- especially since you tried to get your old position back. But now, the pool is pretty shallow, and the number of swimmers is very high. That's why the employers have the upper hand, and can be very selective. It sucks, yes, but that's free market.

Eric

DILYSI Dave wrote: Saying that all a degree proves is that you can collect a piece of paper is about as stupid as saying that folks without a degree are useless idiots.

Fully agreed, all the more support to my point that it is discriminatory or at least a broad generalization to eliminate candidates from a pool purely based upon completed level of education.

DILYSI Dave wrote: Your biggest challenge, whether valid or not, is that you are going to be interviewing with folks who do have a degree. That means that you're trying to convince someone that they wasted 4 years of their life and tens of thousands of dollars. That's not an easy sell.

The only thing I'm tring to convince them is that I have the skills, experience and qualifications for the job. In the opportunities I have had to intererview without automatically being eliminated due to lack of a degree, I have never failed to be able to do that.

DILYSI Dave wrote: Yes - like it or not, and valid or not, a lot of the "degrees are just paper" posts come off as very "chip on shoulder".

Equally do most of the posts by those with degrees. I am very proud of you all for completing that time and putting in the effort. But many of the posts come off as thinking you are really better than someone without a degree. I fully support education, said it before, I'll say it again. But it does not make you a better person than someone without a degree or even a better candidate for the job. As everyone on both sides of the coin has pointed out there are people who manage to get a degree without having the mental capacity to tie their own shoes (Im not talking about engineering here folks, just a degree) And more often than not the subject matter of your degree does not matter one iota in the selection process (specialized fields aside)

If anything I think what all this clamoring about "must be degreed" has done in the work force is lessen the strenght and importance of a degree held by those who really do apply themselves and get education in a subject matter relavent to their field.

Its not what you know, its who you know.

And going to college with like-minded individuals, meeting industry leaders while you are young, going to trade shows and seminars and getting your name out there, is all stuff to be done during college.

I would not be where I am today if it was not for the help of people I met during college.

Let's look at it this way. 2 candidates have completed coursework for the same degree at the same insitution. Candidate 1 graduated with a 3.0 GPA and has his degree in the field. Candidate 2 upon review of his final transcripts is missing a freshman literature course preventing the award of his degree. Otherwise he carries a 3.9 GPA in the coursework.

Which one is a better candidate for the job?

Which one does corporate america see as a better candiate for the job?

It was 17 years ago, but off the top of my head, my first year consisted of an english, trig, calc 1, an entry level computer course, microbiology, integrated social science, integrated arts and humanities, and chemistry with the lab in the next semester. The second yr all I remember taking was statics and physics.

I am not dismissing the math, but how it is put forth. I bet if you told people that you use calculus every time you drive your car, they would call you a liar. There is a disconnect from the theory to the application. You learn all these jumbled up mess of different formulas and equations with no clue what they mean to real life until way later. This is why I moved on to a different school. I jumped right on in and saw the application to the theory.

My main reason for going elsewhere was to avoid putting my parents in a bigger financial bind at the time. Fin Aid office said I could get the standard govt loan but then my parents had to take out a PLUS loan PLUS kick in 2k additional per year. And let's not even get into the joke called "work study" that factors into fin aid. Sure, I could have applied to the Grand River stamping/assembly plant and worked third shift or something similar, but to me, at least, doesn't make sense.

I say "bored" but the ends wasn't justifying the means. I had asked the advisor when the "real" classes would start, and she told me probably spring semester junior yr. I said no thanks and moved on with life. And to think I was improving by making the choice to move on.... I feel if there had been that one course, I would have stayed.

Debt? Only way to go if you went to MSU for a ME. If you didn't take enough classes towards a degree, besides the lifelong learners, you couldn't sign up for the additional degree classes. They may have changed that policy, but I do not know.

Brian

Person 1. Person 2 is an absolute Moron for not completing freshman literature after maintaining a 3.9GPA and completing all the rest of the requirements to get his diploma.

I don't get this. You KNOW that corporate America wants you to have a degree. You KNOW that it would increase your probability of finding a job. You claim to be an intelligent person with loads of on the job learning, yet you refuse to go to your local community college for ~$1500 a year and get a communications degree.

Corporate America has their rules. You can either play by them, whine, or start you own company. End of Story. It might not be fair, but it's how it is.

I feel I should be clear because I sense hurt feelings from folks here and well, I like you guys.

Im not disparaging education. I think you must be educated to perform a job. I fully applaud and support anyone who gets a formalized education.

What I am against is the insistance of corporate america that the only way to prove or judge an education is to have a piece of paper from a formalized institution. I am not devaluing the education itself, if anything I think the system is doing that. We must be willing to accept that there are other ways to gain knowledge, experience and an education beyond formalized classroom learning.

Education comes in many shapes and forms and it is prejudicial and boardering on discriminatory to say that the only acceptable form of education is that of a university or college.