Am I really unemployable???

So back to the original question - of course you're employable Doc. The question comes down to at what value or what do your potential employers value? Part II - What are your values - what do you bring to the table and what is that worth to you (and those potential employers)? Find a value match and it's all good. The problems come when the values don't match - perhaps employers value that degree - you may not like it or could do the gig in your sleep without a degree - but if that's what the market values, that's the deal (perhaps that's regional and there's others it isn't a value)...Works the other way - in being overqualified - if you're underutilized, you won't like the pay or will get bored. If the values actually do match, then it's a competitive issue and it's up to you to convey that you are a better value than the next guy whether that's specialized expertise, less training costs, less mistakes or downtime or higher quality end product...

If you're making it on your own - well, I don't know your personal situation, but I'm a pretty strong believer in personal agency and that you're probably better off on your own than as an employee.

nocones wrote: Corporate America has their rules. You can either play by them, whine, or start you own company. End of Story. It might not be fair, but it's how it is.

I'm not whining, I've survived the system just fine as it is. But its a flawed system. Maybe I've just never been one for playing games.

Someday I will bother to finish up my degree, as I've already stated. I will test through it as I had started to do in the first place. But it's not a priority to me, and not a necessity in my life.

JThw8 wrote: I feel I should be clear because I sense hurt feelings from folks here and well, I like you guys. Im not disparaging education. I think you must be educated to perform a job. I fully applaud and support anyone who gets a formalized education. What I am against is the insistance of corporate america that the only way to prove or judge an education is to have a piece of paper from a formalized institution. I am not devaluing the education itself, if anything I think the system is doing that. We must be willing to accept that there are other ways to gain knowledge, experience and an education beyond formalized classroom learning. Education comes in many shapes and forms and it is prejudicial and boardering on discriminatory to say that the only acceptable form of education is that of a university or college.

I agree.

Ranger50 wrote: It was 17 years ago, but off the top of my head, my first year consisted of an english, trig, calc 1, an entry level computer course, microbiology, integrated social science, integrated arts and humanities, and chemistry with the lab in the next semester. The second yr all I remember taking was statics.

I was at UM 20 years ago. Statics is an engineering class- so sophomore year just like everyone else.

(Statics is not statistics, statics is the study of things that don't move- or better put- F=ma=0- this for all who are not familiar engineering programs)

I am not dismissing the math, but how it is put forth. I bet if you told people that you use calculus every time you drive your car, they would call you a liar. There is a disconnect from the theory to the application. You learn all these jumbled up mess of different formulas and equations with no clue what they mean to real life until way later. This is why I moved on to a different school. I jumped right on in and saw the application to the theory.

Well, you did say "Math is a joke in engineering, IMO"- seems very dismissive.

You learn how to apply them in Jr, Sr, and Masters courses. I don't use them barely at all, but I do understand the physics behind why they are there, and how they need to be applied- along with other systems of equations. My graduate heat transfer class, for instance- horrible teacher, but the biggest thing I learned was that nature is dimensionless- just like math is.

My main reason for going elsewhere was to avoid putting my parents in a bigger financial bind at the time. Fin Aid office said I could get the standard govt loan but then my parents had to take out a PLUS loan PLUS kick in 2k additional per year. And let's not even get into the joke called "work study" that factors into fin aid. Sure, I could have applied to the Grand River stamping/assembly plant and worked third shift or something similar, but to me, at least, doesn't make sense.

Very understandable.

I say "bored" but the ends wasn't justifying the means. I had asked the advisor when the "real" classes would start, and she told me probably spring semester junior yr. I said no thanks and moved on with life. And to think I was improving by making the choice to move on.... I feel if there had been that one course, I would have stayed. Debt? Only way to go if you went to MSU for a ME. If you didn't take enough classes towards a degree, besides the lifelong learners, you couldn't sign up for the additional degree classes. They may have changed that policy, but I do not know. Brian

Just bear in mind that all of your choices mean something over the long run. An employer may see your decision as giving up when it got hard, or giving up when you got bored etc. I'm not saying that they are right, but you do have to understand that is easily a way to look at it.

BTW, there are other schools out there than MSU or UM for engineering degrees. If you want the really good jobs, get either of those schools to pay for the masters. For those of you who can still choose that route. For the most part, all accreddited engineering programs are equal, especially when going for the higher degree. Idaho was pretty cheap, which got me into Michigan, which got me this job at Ford.

Again, it may not be about smartness, or hard working or whatever- but committment.

Eric

alfadriver wrote: For those of you who started, and then walked away from college, I would no hire you at all- why? Since you tend to walk away when you get "bored"- if that really means bored, or lazy, or not able- doesn't matter to me. I don't see the reason to hire someone to do a job when they seem likely to leave whenever they want- would be a major waste in training, especially if you took that to anywhere else. Eric

I bet youve cut someone off on the freeway before, or turned without signaling, or went up a closing lane to get in front of 15 people who waited patiently and merged when it was their turn, or pulled some other prick move on the road? I guess then that if I see you do it ONCE, then Im allowed to label you a mouth breathing berkleyer who does it everytime?! its not a fair assumption is it? If I did not finish college, its not because Im lazy or stupid, or unlikely to finish things. It just means I didnt have the cash to finish that one thing. Do I wish I had? of course, but it doesnt make me useless because I didnt. I know plenty of college grads who are flakes.

Back in 93, the only engineering schools in MI were MSU, UM, WMU and I think LSSU. Coming from the Grand Rapids area, no matter where I went, was a problem financially.

BTW, I just went to look at the MSU curriculum, and I see they added some of those entry level classes that weren't offered in years past. Bastards.

4cylndrfury wrote:

alfadriver wrote: For those of you who started, and then walked away from college, I would no hire you at all- why? Since you tend to walk away when you get "bored"- if that really means bored, or lazy, or not able- doesn't matter to me. I don't see the reason to hire someone to do a job when they seem likely to leave whenever they want- would be a major waste in training, especially if you took that to anywhere else. Eric

I bet youve cut someone off on the freeway before, or turned without signaling, or went up a closing lane to get in front of 15 people who waited patiently and merged when it was their turn, or pulled some other prick move on the road? I guess then that if I see you do it ONCE, then Im allowed to label you a mouth breathing berkleyer who does it everytime?! its not a fair assumption is it? If I did not finish college, its not because Im lazy or stupid, or unlikely to finish things. It just means I didnt have the cash to finish that one thing. Do I wish I had? of course, but it doesnt make me useless because I didnt. I know plenty of college grads who are flakes.

If ALL you have to measure the person is whether they cut you off in traffic or not, then that's all you've got.

They don't have time to know if you have done some brilliance, or talk to you more than you'd like- they have probably hundreds of resumes, and need some filters. College degree is one.

It does not matter if it's fair, or correct, or very much incorrect- it's a known filter. You can complain about it all you want, but it's not going to change things any time soon.

So if I know that cutting someone off in the construction zone may not get me in the door for a job, for darned sure, I will not do that.

alfadriver wrote: It does not matter if it's fair, or correct, or very much incorrect- it's a known filter. You can complain about it all you want, but it's not going to change things any time soon.

There was a time when being black, or female was an acceptable known filter.
Complaining about it, or more importantly making it known as an issue and working to enlighten people, is the only way to change it.

JThw8 wrote:

alfadriver wrote: It does not matter if it's fair, or correct, or very much incorrect- it's a known filter. You can complain about it all you want, but it's not going to change things any time soon.

There was a time when being black, or female was an acceptable known filter. Complaining about it, or more importantly making it known as an issue and working to enlighten people, is the only way to change it.

So you think you have the RIGHT to be an engineer without the education? 'scue me?

alfadriver wrote:

JThw8 wrote:

alfadriver wrote: It does not matter if it's fair, or correct, or very much incorrect- it's a known filter. You can complain about it all you want, but it's not going to change things any time soon.

There was a time when being black, or female was an acceptable known filter. Complaining about it, or more importantly making it known as an issue and working to enlighten people, is the only way to change it.

So you think you have the RIGHT to be an engineer without the education? 'scue me?

No, I have the right to not be excluded for a job based soley on the type of education/training I have received. And I never made this about engineering, I am referring to the job market as a whole.

I think the "degree necessity" is very career-path oriented.

Would I hire an engineer without the piece of paper? Doubtful.

Would I hire someone with a Sociology degree and little experience over someone with just a diploma but lots of experience for a skilled type manufacturing job? Probably not, I'd wonder why they bothered getting the degree if they just wanted to work at the local plant (or at all, seriously, what do you DO with a Sociology degree?!?!?).

JThw8 wrote: No, I have the right to not be excluded for a job based soley on the *type* of education/training I have received. And I never made this about engineering, I am referring to the job market as a whole.

So I should be able to apply for a teaching position since I have an engineering degree?

Or I'm qualified to design funky fuels even though my engineering degree is Mechanical and not chemical?

Would you hire me to run a mutual fund with just a basic econ 101 class?

I know what you mean, but I see no problem with me being excluded from a hotel manager position since I'm an engineer. No issue with a bank not letting me have a loan the first time around when I try to just open a store without any plan or real business education.

I also know that I pigeon holed myself into a very specific industry that has very limited jobs. I can deal with that- it's a risk I took to have the career I have.

Eric

alfadriver wrote:

JThw8 wrote: No, I have the right to not be excluded for a job based soley on the *type* of education/training I have received. And I never made this about engineering, I am referring to the job market as a whole.

So I should be able to apply for a teaching position since I have an engineering degree? Or I'm qualified to design funky fuels even though my engineering degree is Mechanical and not chemical? Would you hire me to run a mutual fund with just a basic econ 101 class? I know what you mean, but I see no problem with me being excluded from a hotel manager position since I'm an engineer. No issue with a bank not letting me have a loan the first time around when I try to just open a store without any plan or real business education. I also know that I pigeon holed myself into a very specific industry that has very limited jobs. I can deal with that- it's a risk I took to have the career I have. Eric

But I'm not talking about hiring unqualified individuals for a task, Im talking about basing that qualification upon knowledge and experience no matter how it is gained.

If you have the proven knowledge and understanding to perform at any of those positions then your degree shouldn't matter (and usually doesn't as evinced by the amount of non job specific degrees held in positions)

Certainly there will always be positions which require specialized training and education, but there was a time when we understood that those things could be obtained in ways other formal education. Hell there was a time, granted long ago, that even doctors worked without formalized education. Apprenticeships, internships, etc provided real world hands on experience which is invaluable and missing from many educational offerings today.

When a person is young and has not gained years of proven experience then I can see education being a suitable substitute for experience. But we are a society which looks at it the other way around where sometimes experience can be a suitable substitute for education.

And more to my original point when a person is more...um...seasoned shall we say. And their record proves that they have the skills, knowledge and ability, more often than not the education ploy is a sadly legal way to skirt around the age discrimination laws.

If I'm taking my car for repairs and I have to choose between the seasoned mechanic with years of learning on the job or a fresh out of school kid with an automotive technology degree I know which one I would feel is more qualified to diagnose my vehicle quickly, correctly and complete the repairs.

And I got a small chuckle out of the teaching degree reference since in some states it is still one of the few jobs you can get without a degree. Sadly HS diploma is all that is required to substitute teach in some states....now that is scary. My ex wife (a teacher) constantly goes ballistic over that one.

alfadriver wrote:

JThw8 wrote: No, I have the right to not be excluded for a job based soley on the *type* of education/training I have received. And I never made this about engineering, I am referring to the job market as a whole.

I know what you mean, but I see no problem with me being excluded from a hotel manager position since I'm an engineer.

But it you were an engineer with 15 years experience running a profitable hotel it would be stupid of them to exclude you from the hotel job based on your engineering degree or lack thereof.

I had no idea this thread would morph into this. I was just venting because I had JUST got word that I was passed by on yet another job I am qualified for, have done in the past, didn't need a degree for but didn't get because of said degree.
Again, I don't resent any of you edumacated types. I didn't get any further education because I didn't need it for 20 years. Now I do, so now I am. Just PMS'ing about it.

DrBoost wrote: But it you were an engineer with 15 years experience running a profitable hotel it would be stupid of them to exclude you from the hotel job based on your engineering degree or lack thereof.

During those 15 years, what stopped me from getting the degree to really take my position over the top?

Quite a few tech's at Ford have sacrificed and gotten engineering degrees so that they can become calibrators, since they knew about 60% of what we did.

But that's a lot of coulda, shoulda, and woulda. So enough of that.

What about the now?

alfadriver wrote:

DrBoost wrote: But it you were an engineer with 15 years experience running a profitable hotel it would be stupid of them to exclude you from the hotel job based on your engineering degree or lack thereof.

During those 15 years, what stopped me from getting the degree to really take my position over the top?

I suppose not knowing that in the future you could no longer hold the job you currently do without the degree you dont' currently need and never have before. Well, that and complacency I suppose.

alfadriver wrote: What about the now?

I'm going to school to prove I know what I know.

In reply to DrBoost:

Silly question man, why not just turn wrenches for yourself?

Other than the fact that your boss is a jackass, sleeps with your wife and takes half your money, what do you have to lose by being self-employed?

You can always get another job if it doesn't work out.

I know it sounds oversimplified but is it really?

I'm busting my butt trying to grow my parts business, it's slow going but I hope to replace my day job with it at some time in the next five years.

Shawn

Type Q wrote:

friedgreencorrado wrote: ...I help make the company what it is, and my effort and skill helps keep it profitable. It *should* love me, if I'm one of the people that keeps the profit rolling in.

I don't disagree with you and I am not defending the way things are. Businesses exist to serve people's needs and desires. Money is earned by being of service to people. Business is all about people. That seems to be forgotten on a regular basis

friedgreencorrado wrote: Type Q, I'm not trying to "flame" you, or belittle your opinions...I'm just trying to get everyone to look at the "big picture". Of course, I realize doing such a thing's just a luxury for someone who doesn't have a job at the moment. Two of our networks are being "outsourced" to Argentina in November (never thought it would happen to a non-manufacturing job, but broadcast/satellite technology gets better every day)...I'll probably be facing unemployment at that time as well. Stilll not selling any of the cars until I'm actually laid off!

No offense taken. My comments were intended as observations of what is, rather than advocating that this the way it should be.

Apologies for my "knee-jerk reaction", especially since we actually kinda agree on the subject!

Trans_Maro wrote: In reply to DrBoost: Silly question man, why not just turn wrenches for yourself? Shawn

I am doing that, but I gotsta be REAL careful. I've already had the city called on me once and that was when I was averaging 2 or 3 jobs a month! Now I have the car dropped off, then park it in a church parking lot and bring it back home after midnight and close it up in the garage. Go out the next morning and work away. But it sucks to wrench for a living in a garage with no hoist and crappy lighting. Yeah I know, I can change the lighting but the hoist aint gonna happen.
I did start my own business a while ago but it just aint cutting it...............yet.

im gettin frastrated and its only been 2 1/2 weeks.. sent out 5 resumes today.. so a total of 8 in the last 2 days... im gettin cranky already. did get one call yesterrday. called him back, and just had a funky feelin about it. told me he would call today. never called i left 2 messages.. figure if i dont hear from him, now that the ball is kinda in his court. ill be all done chasing that opp and move onto the next.

If you dont mind a bit of a commute, I've got a need for a part time mechanic that likes working on miatas.

Fenton (or whatever it is) to Madison Heights is 45 miles. Get that greascar going & I'll fill er up with waste oil ;)

Kendall

Kendall_Jones wrote: If you dont mind a bit of a commute, I've got a need for a part time mechanic that likes working on miatas. Fenton (or whatever it is) to Madison Heights is 45 miles. Get that greascar going & I'll fill er up with waste oil ;) Kendall

Win.

Kendall_Jones wrote: If you dont mind a bit of a commute, I've got a need for a part time mechanic that likes working on miatas. Fenton (or whatever it is) to Madison Heights is 45 miles. Get that greascar going & I'll fill er up with waste oil ;) Kendall

Are ya serous? Shoot me a PM.

nocones wrote: ...yet you refuse to go to your local community college for ~$1500 a year and get a communications degree.

Are you indicating that a Communications Degree is some simple-to-obtain degree that doesn't really mean anything but offers a generic entry into a wide variety of careers?

I would be highly insulted, but, that's exactly why I have a BA in Communications.

Ranger50 wrote: Back in 93, the only engineering schools in MI were MSU, UM, WMU and I think LSSU. Coming from the Grand Rapids area, no matter where I went, was a problem financially. BTW, I just went to look at the MSU curriculum, and I see they added some of those entry level classes that weren't offered in years past. Bastards.

Then you're not looking very hard, dude

racinginc215 wrote: You missed GMI ...

I see you were already corrected. When I went it was called Kettering. Ranked quite high, actually, for undergrad engineering programs. Co-op is the main difference, and bridges the gap between the two camps posting here. I co-oped for 11 or 13 terms (can't remember) while earning my BS ME and BS AP degrees. The co-op experience helps a lot.

JThw8 wrote: No, I have the right to not be excluded for a job based soley on the *type* of education/training I have received. And I never made this about engineering, I am referring to the job market as a whole.

You have the right to anything? They are paying you, they can choose based on whatever criterion they can imagine. Theoretically, they could line up the candidates in a potato sack race.

friedgreencorrado wrote: I don't want to insult xd here, but ever since the Corporate Overlords overran my once wonderful privately held company, I'm beginning to understand that the HR department is often the *enemy*, from resume to retirement. They're no longer just administrators dealing with employee benefits, etc., but now a full-fledged member of the "think of the stockholders" cadre. They are not there to find qualified people to recruit, they're not there to make the workplace a better environment, and they're certainly not there to represent your concerns to the organization at large. They're there to protect the company *from* it's employees. From finding "legal" ways to jettison older or newly disabled workers, to protecting the "rights" of the thin-skinned shiny happy people who take offense at *any* other employees' habits/appearance/words/etc. (after all, the `pantywaists' may sue!), to Zero-Tolerance documentation of simple mistakes in advance, so they can dissmiss at will *anyone* they wish for "non-performance issues". (so that they can illegally dismiss older/disabled workers without having to admit the *real* reasons for such dismissals)

Thanks for saying that, dude. I've worked in three different places as an engineer, and HR is always that way at every place. The first was the worst, though. I remmeber vividly walking into his office determined to get something, walking out with a bright sunshine smile on, making it ten steps, stopping in my tracks and realizing that I got nothing and he made me happy about it. The guy was good, but an ass. HR is supposed to deal with humans as a resource to the company. To liason your employment. What they actually do is consiper with other companies to fix wages, fire people for stupid reasons (sexual harrassment, holy cow!) and produce forms and paperwork while telling you you're not working hard enough, long enough, and you're not getting that rise we promised. I have no idea why. At some point, it's going to topple down, lawyers (and judges) and whiners will all die off, and the capitalism can work again. Right now, with all of the corporate welfare and personal welfare there is, it'll run just like this straight into the ground.

Sounds like you might have a lead there Doc - good luck to ya.

Off to go buy a farm in the woods, burn my SS card and cancel all of my accounts, sometimes I think this whole civilization thing isn't all it's cracked up to be. And yes, I realise I won't use my quantum mechanics course or differential calculus on the farm, but I'd enjoy everything I did and be able to keep all I earned rather than the 55% the government currently takes. Even my God only asks for 10%.