Am I really unemployable???

tuna55 wrote: You have the right to anything? They are paying you, they can choose based on whatever criterion they can imagine. Theoretically, they could line up the candidates in a potato sack race.

Id like to see any company determine their criteria is white men under 35 years old with perfect health, and therefore, all aging non-white non-males with certain medical conditions need not apply. You have a right not to be discriminated against...not sure that the bill of rights includes educational status, but there are definitely things you are NOT allowed to use as exclusionary criteria.

4cylndrfury wrote:

tuna55 wrote: You have the right to anything? They are paying you, they can choose based on whatever criterion they can imagine. Theoretically, they could line up the candidates in a potato sack race.

Id like to see any company determine their criteria is white men under 35 years old with perfect health, and therefore, all aging non-white non-males with certain medical conditions need not apply. You have a right not to be discriminated against...not sure that the bill of rights includes educational status, but there are definitely things you are NOT allowed to use as exclusionary criteria.

Yeah yeah, I almost added "sans explicit labor laws" but you know the rest of it right.

tuna55 wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote:

tuna55 wrote: You have the right to anything? They are paying you, they can choose based on whatever criterion they can imagine. Theoretically, they could line up the candidates in a potato sack race.

Id like to see any company determine their criteria is white men under 35 years old with perfect health, and therefore, all aging non-white non-males with certain medical conditions need not apply. You have a right not to be discriminated against...not sure that the bill of rights includes educational status, but there are definitely things you are NOT allowed to use as exclusionary criteria.

Yeah yeah, I almost added "sans explicit labor laws" but you know the rest of it right.

And thus back to my whole original point that a case could be made to make this a discriminatory act and added to the laws. I think we need more laws like we need holes in the head so I dont necessarily advocate it. And no matter what laws you put in place there will be a loophole. (see the part about age discrimination hidden under the guise of "no degree, no job")

And the bottom line is any company can exclude you for any reason, and they don't have to tell you why, just "sorry, you didn't get the job" So further legislating it would be pointless.

Only problem with that theory is you're 100% in control of whether or not you get that degree. Not so with age, race, sex, etc. Labor laws are in place to protect people from discriminatory practices. Not those that have chosen not to qualify for a given job.

I think the real argument is that a degree is not always an indicator of talent, we al know very smart people without a degree and some real idiots WITH degrees. Nor is it always practical for an individual to get one. In my case, by the time I would go back to school, find out that almost nothing transfers from either of my associate degrees and get a BS in Engineering, I would be 58 or 59, have added $40 or 50K of debt (at minimum) and be competing with a bunch of kids for entry level pay. Yeah, there are discrimination laws but if you were making a hiring decision, would you hire the person planning on retiring in 7 or 8 years?

speedblind wrote: Only problem with that theory is you're 100% in control of whether or not you get that degree. Not so with age, race, sex, etc. Labor laws are in place to protect people from discriminatory practices. Not those that have chosen not to qualify for a given job.

You're 100% in control of your religion too. Next argument.

And honestly to expand upon the thought just a small bit. As I stated previously some people are just unable to learn in a traditional classroom environment. In those cases they are not 100% in control of having a degree. They may learn well hands on or on the job and be able to develop the same, if not better, qualifications and skills for the postition but cannot undertake traditional learning.

There is an elephant in this room.

I had a friend who was working as a lower level engineer for a company in the Metro DC/Virginia area. His wife took a job as a doctor at one of our local hospitals in Lansing (they are both from Lansing).

His lower level position earned him a $72,500 year salary. He is exceptionally well spoke, published and comes off as a top tier candidate for most jobs. He will be happy tirning wrenches or flipping burgers, his wife earns a very good income and the house they sold in Virginia was nearly paid off and paid for the Michigan home with a three year buffer in case they BOTH lost their jobs (Sold a $750,000 replaced it with a $185,000 house that is newer and larger). He is not sweating the income loss but he IS adding a gap in his employment time line and the longer it goes the less likely he will be hired because why would anyone hire someone that no one else would, right?

Like with Boost it is wearing on his confidence and generally pissing him off.

I suggested he become a male stripper or chiropractor. He is considering one of them.

John Brown wrote: I suggested he become a male stripper or chiropractor. He is considering one of them.

I think a guy suggesting that another guy become a male stripper is right up there with talking on the phone with someone while you're pooping.

JThw8 wrote: You're 100% in control of your religion too. Next argument.

Don't exactly see how freedom of religion and freedom of education relates to each other...

Religion, race, creed, sexuality, sex- all have no bearing on your skill sets or measure thereof. Companies desire skills, they use education as one measure of that, as well as experience. If you want to take out education from that equation, then you should take out experinece, too.

I also don't buy your argument that some people can't learn in a classroom. Some of the basics required can not be learned on the job very easily- say the basics of thermodynamics that have to be known to understand how combustion works. Experience can go a long way, for sure, but I see a lot of "experienced" people post incorrect assumptions about how things work (or not)- even here. There are some basic building blocks that are just not emphasized on the job.

Also, if you REALLY want to learn, you will find help. If you don't, then you just find excuses. Again, I'm not interested in hiring people who just want to find excuses. Heck, I'd be interested in hiring someone who may have struggled through college, but still finished, since I would see them as resourceful. I know I got dressed down in an interview once, since I got good grades- the guy thought I had too easy of a time, and didn't have street smarts. He's free to think like that, and I'm pretty happy I didn't get that job.

tuna55 wrote:

John Brown wrote: I suggested he become a male stripper or chiropractor. He is considering one of them.

I think a guy suggesting that another guy become a male stripper is right up there with talking on the phone with someone while you're pooping.

We call that the shat chat, It has to happen sometimes.

John Brown wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

John Brown wrote: I suggested he become a male stripper or chiropractor. He is considering one of them.

I think a guy suggesting that another guy become a male stripper is right up there with talking on the phone with someone while you're pooping.

We call that the shat chat, It has to happen sometimes.

Sometimes, but only with full disclosure. I hung up on my Grandmother after hearing a flush once.

JThw8 wrote: As I stated previously some people are just unable to learn in a traditional classroom environment. In those cases they are not 100% in control of having a degree. They may learn well hands on or on the job and be able to develop the same, if not better, qualifications and skills for the postition but cannot undertake traditional learning.

So get a degree from a school that teaches in a hands on, non-classroom environment.

John Brown wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

John Brown wrote: I suggested he become a male stripper or chiropractor. He is considering one of them.

I think a guy suggesting that another guy become a male stripper is right up there with talking on the phone with someone while you're pooping.

We call that the shat chat, It has to happen sometimes.

This from a guy that has poop as avatar.

alfadriver wrote: Don't exactly see how freedom of religion and freedom of education relates to each other... Religion, race, creed, sexuality, sex- all have no bearing on your skill sets or measure thereof

Your initial argument was that sex, race and age are things you cannot change and therefore cannot be held accountable for.

I do not belive religion bears any relevance to qualification for a job, I was just noting that it is something you have the ability to change so therefore your initial argument was flawed. Things you have control over can still be considered discriminatory if used for job selection criteria.

JThw8 wrote: Your initial argument was that sex, race and age are things you cannot change and therefore cannot be held accountable for. I do not belive religion bears any relevance to qualification for a job, I was just noting that it is something you have the ability to change so therefore your initial argument was flawed. Things you have control over can still be considered discriminatory if used for job selection criteria.

No, that wasn't my argument. It's true, but it's also true that our country has chosen that your chosen religion (or not) is not something we should use to decide if someone is qualified for a job.

OTOH, skills IS something that we decide is ok to decide if someone is qualified for a job. And education IS a measure of skills. Whether you agree that it's a relevant measure or not, it's still a valid measurement. I would contend that experience can be overrated, if not tempered by a specific education background. Seen it on this board a number of times.

I'm really not sure how you make an argument that skills, and various measurements of skills is discriminatory in a bad way.

Eric

alfadriver wrote: I'm really not sure how you make an argument that skills, and various measurements of skills is discriminatory in a bad way. Eric

Somewhat unrelated to the point of what you meant is the fact that we have done exactly that. Afrimative Action and quota systems give people who are minorities or otherwise special circumstance a leg up beyond their actual skill level (The assumption being they are not incapable of learning to perform the job, however a lifetime of discrimination due to their status has led them to be unqualified for the job). The merits of AA and Quotas can be argued, however the stage has been set in the past for ignoring ones skill set in an effort to bring equality to the workplace. Now I'm not sure if lack of formal education can be formally deemed as discrimination, that's the argument you are having.

nocones wrote:

alfadriver wrote: I'm really not sure how you make an argument that skills, and various measurements of skills is discriminatory in a bad way. Eric

Somewhat unrelated to the point of what you meant is the fact that we have done exactly that. Afrimative Action and quota systems give people who are minorities or otherwise special circumstance a leg up beyond their actual skill level (The assumption being they are not incapable of learning to perform the job, however a lifetime of discrimination due to their status has led them to be unqualified for the job). The merits of AA and Quotas can be argued, however the stage has been set in the past for ignoring ones skill set in an effort to bring equality to the workplace. Now I'm not sure if lack of formal education can be formally deemed as discrimination, that's the argument you are having.

My intention wasn't to make this an affirmative action debate. Rather, I was simply trying to say that this isn't an issue of discrimination. It's an issue of the original poster noticing a problem with a fairly straightforward solution.

Problem: Can't get a decent job without a degree.

Solution: Get a degree.

Whether or not it's fair can fill 5-10 pages (obviously). But at its core, the issue here is pretty cut and dry.

alfadriver wrote: I would contend that experience can be overrated, if not tempered by a specific education background. Seen it on this board a number of times. I'm really not sure how you make an argument that skills, and various measurements of skills is discriminatory in a bad way. Eric

The same contention can be made that education can be overrated if not tempered by experience. I have met plenty of people in real life with full lists of degrees who were still incapable of the most basic tasks within their career field. I can think of one person with whom I work who has multiple advanced degrees from some very prestigious schools, works in IT and cant use a simple call ticketing system even when it is explained multiple times and she is provided step by step instructions. But she has some great credentials :)

My point all along is that education comes in many forms and a piece of paper from an institution is not the only way to validate education.

speedblind wrote: My intention wasn't to make this an affirmative action debate. Rather, I was simply trying to say that this isn't an issue of discrimination. It's an issue of the original poster noticing a problem with a fairly straightforward solution. Problem: Can't get a decent job without a degree. Solution: Get a degree. Whether or not it's fair can fill 5-10 pages (obviously). But at its core, the issue here is pretty cut and dry.

Noone is debating the core issue is that simple. The discussion at hand is whether or not its right.
Much of my argument here is for the sake of argument itself. The issue is a non issue to me personally. But I have to challenge things that are accepted as right just because that's the way it is. If noone had challenged these things then the rest of the liberties described here would never have come to pass.

We can debate all day long about the ability for anyone to get a degree, I still contend there are those who are unable for various reasons to get a degree no matter how much those of us who are sheltered from their specific problems may deny it. And if someone with a valid reason could a) be willing to stand up and prove it (most are embarrassed by the situation) and b) be able to verify that was the sole reason for denial of employment they could probably have a ground breaking case which would eventually challenge the status quo.

Am I saying I couldn't get a degree? No, I make no excuses for myself, I've done the research, I could have an MBA in about a year or 2 if I wanted to, I've got better things to do with my time right now. A degree doesn't matter to me and currently only holds me back from progressing to a job I don't want so I don't mind in the least. The only time it came close to being an issue is when my company tried to use it as an excuse to not pay me what I was worth, they soon saw the error of their ways and ceased that argument.

I'm just making the counterpoint because no standards should be left unchallenged :)

I do find it interesting, and really have no opinion on it other than it's interesting, that the ones that so vehemently oppose what I am suggesting are engineers. Could just be that engineers represent a larger makeup of the board, dunno.

The solution isn't always that cut and dry. At 37 years old I have a family to take care of (and I better not hear any crap about using a condom and it's my fault I have kids because each of my kids was by choice and made me a better person) so full time school is out of the question. So, a 4 year degree is about 8 years. That puts me in my mid 40's before I have that precious degree. Then there's the question of money. I don't have $40K laying around just looking to be spent since I'm uh, unemployed and unemployable. So, I need to get a degree (classes start in a few weeks for me) but also need to get a job to keep kids mouths fed and a roof over our heads. That's where the problem comes in.
Some folks make it seem like it's soo easy "just go get a degree" and such. Well, I suspect some of that came from 20-somethings that have no idea what life will be like in 15 years with kids, mortgage and the other sundries that come with being all grown up.
Again, I wasn't ripping on people with degrees or degrees in general. It's the simple fact that that seems to be the first filter in job selection. "Hmmm, this guy has started, ran and sold 3 very profitable companies. He spent 12 years in the military and volunteers to give his limbs to lepers. He has done this job before and has sterling references from the pope, Neil Armstrong, my mom and even a reference engraved in stone from the hand of God. Man, if only he had finished his "Far Side" Entimology degree from Oregon State."

^Or some of us watched their single mothers with two children work full-time and take night school and generally do what she had to do be a fantastic mother AND further her education and career.

I guess I should be whining about coming from a broken home and growing up in a trailer park and how things were so rough, woe is me. Or my best friend in college who worked 50 hours per week to put himself through school. Or my girlfriend who worked two jobs to put herself through school (and still got a Business degree with double minors in 4 years with good grades).

I completely agree with everything alfadriver has said in this thread, so I won't repeat it. But it sure sounds like a lot of sour grapes in here.

EDIT: This wasn't meant to start a pissing contest, but to those us who have themselves and had friends and family do what it takes, no matter what. Well maybe that's why some in this thread have tried to imply that a degree = elitst.

JThw8 wrote: I do find it interesting, and really have no opinion on it other than it's interesting, that the ones that so vehemently oppose what I am suggesting are engineers. Could just be that engineers represent a larger makeup of the board, dunno.

Now I know I'll get flamed here but here goes. I don't think that's just a co-inky-dink. Many of the engineers I've met are terribly arrogant. Now the only one from this board that I have met and I know is an engineer is Alfadriver. Eric is anything but arrogant, he and his wife are great people so I want to get that out of the way. But it seems to me (I could be wrong, I was wrong once back in '83 when I thought I made a mistake but didn't) many engineers think that the degree puts them so much higher than anyone else. I would never argue that they aren't very smart, smarter than me I'm sure since I know I would bomb out at calculus but they seem to think anyone else is lower than them. Funny how when I was a tech at a Jeep dealer (only for a year or so at this point) and a group of engineers from Jeep/Truck Engineering came to me for help. There was a common water leak that plagued YJ and early TJ Wranglers. I found the leak and was fixing them by the dozens. They came to me so I could show them the leak and how I fixed it so they could put that into production. But the whole time I felt I was looked down upon because my hands were dirty.
On the up side, one of the engineers was hot

z31maniac wrote: I completely agree with everything alfadriver has said in this thread, so I won't repeat it. But it sure sounds like a lot of sour grapes in here.

Heck yeah it's sour grapes. Let me pose the question to you. You have worked in a certain job or field for 20 years. Learning everything you can (including getting, say 8 ASE certifications [BTW, most folks consider this equal to a 4 year degree as far as credit hours are concerned] and many certifications from other manufacturers including Bosch, Chrysler, SEMA, Kawasaki and others along the way on your own time and dime. You have constantly strived to better yourself and your career. Everything has gone swimingly. Then one day you find out that all those years of learning (both REAL world and classroom) are worth nothing. Some guy with a brand new degree and not much else get's the job simply because of the degree. Here comes the question, sorry but I got wordy there. Would you be upset and irritated? Would you really think that's fair when it's you and your family? Would you go out and get a degree (again, yes I am)?

BTW, I agree with Alfadriver as well. He's not discounting experience but his employers are, and nearly every other one out there.

In reply to DrBoost:

I feel for you Doc. I'm 37 too but I was able to finish up my BSME last year. Our son who is 3 1/2 came in the picture about half-way through my engineering degree. Luckily for us my wife had her Pharm D, so she was able to support our household on less than 40 hours a week (we lived very modestly) and we had help from her parents with watching the baby.

I really do feel for some of the folks who do have the experience but not the degree. Alfadriver is right though, the bottom line is you need to have a degree to be considered for a lot of jobs, especially those that are well paid. I don't know about older folks, but when I was in high school it was made pretty clear to us that in order to make a good living you needed to go to college. I started out with a journalism degree, my wife an anthropology degree. Both of us started out making $20K/year out of college. After a few years both of us knew that this wasn't going to cut it and we needed to go back and better ourselves. She spent 6 years busting her ass for that Pharm D. After she was done I went back and busted my ass for 5 years for my BSME. Luckily we only have $10k of student debt left to pay off. We were pretty lucky with our timing and help from others. I understand other folks sometimes don't have those opportunities.

What I think is a load of crap is the "I can't learn in a classroom" mantra or "I get bored easily because I"m too smart" or "I only learn by doing." Those are all excuses. I should know, I used them myself for years. I had always wanted to get an engineering degree but had not because I wasn't willing to sacrifice the time to sit down and study. I complained that "the system" was stacked against people like myself. What I finally realized that the problem was me, not the system. Once I made my mind up to sit down, focus, and put in some hard work I got results.

Is the system perfect? No. Could we teach things like calculus and heat transfer in a better, more applicable way? Sure. But the bottom line is if you want it bad enough you can do it. I wasn't the brightest guy in my classes, but I'll bet I was one of the hardest working.

Family situations can make it very difficult for folks to make that time. That is understandable and unfortunate. Of course there are plenty of people out there with degrees that are dumb-asses. I went to school (both times) with a few. But personally I've always known that in order to provide security for myself and my family it's a big hoop I had to jump through. Is it always right or fair? No. But it is the world we live in.

Doc, I truly wish you the best of luck. I can't imagine how difficult your situation must be.

mblommel wrote: In reply to DrBoost: I feel for you Doc. I'm 37 too but I was able to finish up my BSME last year. Our son who is 3 1/2 came in the picture about half-way through my engineering degree. Luckily for us my wife had her Pharm D, so she was able to support our household on less than 40 hours a week (we lived very modestly) and we had help from her parents with watching the baby. I really do feel for some of the folks who do have the experience but not the degree. Alfadriver is right though, the bottom line is you need to have a degree to be considered for a lot of jobs, especially those that are well paid. I don't know about older folks, but when I was in high school it was made pretty clear to us that in order to make a good living you needed to go to college. I started out with a journalism degree, my wife an anthropology degree. Both of us started out making $20K/year out of college. After a few years both of us knew that this wasn't going to cut it and we needed to go back and better ourselves. She spent 6 years busting her ass for that Pharm D. After she was done I went back and busted my ass for 5 years for my BSME. Luckily we only have $10k of student debt left to pay off. We were pretty lucky with our timing and help from others. I understand other folks sometimes don't have those opportunities. What I think is a load of crap is the "I can't learn in a classroom" mantra or "I get bored easily because I"m too smart" or "I only learn by doing." Those are all excuses. I should know, I used them myself for years. I had always wanted to get an engineering degree but had not because I wasn't willing to sacrifice the time to sit down and study. I complained that "the system" was stacked against people like myself. What I finally realized that the problem was me, not the system. Once I made my mind up to sit down, focus, and put in some hard work I got results. Is the system perfect? No. Could we teach things like calculus and heat transfer in a better, more applicable way? Sure. But the bottom line is if you want it bad enough you can do it. I wasn't the brightest guy in my classes, but I'll bet I was one of the hardest working. Family situations can make it very difficult for folks to make that time. That is understandable and unfortunate. Of course there are plenty of people out there with degrees that are dumb-asses. I went to school (both times) with a few. But personally I've always known that in order to provide security for myself and my family it's a big hoop I had to jump through. Is it always right or fair? No. But it is the world we live in. Doc, I truly wish you the best of luck. I can't imagine how difficult your situation must be.

Thanks man. I know the hoops and I'm jumping

mblommel wrote: What I think is a load of crap is the "I can't learn in a classroom" mantra or "I get bored easily because I"m too smart" or "I only learn by doing."

Which makes it obvious your degree is not in an education or psychology field. There are certainly people who do not learn in a classroom setting.

I'm not using that excuse for myself, I can learn in a classroom, the issue I find is the pace is usually too slow but that's actually not an issue it just leads me to self study ahead of the material.

But it doesn't change the fact that there do exist people who do not take to book learning. That's not conjecture.

On both sides of the argument I see everyone agree that the system isn't fair but it is what it is. Well if you don't challenge what is not fair then it will not change.

If you can without a doubt say that a person with a degree is ALWAYS the better candidate for a job then I'll quit now. But I would hope the rational minds here do not honestly believe that. And if the reality is that a degreed individual is NOT always the best candidate for a job than people without degrees deserve fair and equal consideration when applying for a job, period. Beyond that its discrimination.

It may sound like sour grapes, its not, I sound like a broken record but a degree has never held me back from anything so I'm not sore about anything. I could have a degree if I wanted it, but it doesn't personally hold me back so I don't care. But it is a shame to see highly qualified employees summarily dismissed for not "playing the game"