Am I really unemployable???

Datsun1500 wrote:

JThw8 wrote: than people without degrees deserve fair and equal consideration when applying for a job, period. Beyond that its discrimination.

It's not discrimination if you don't meet the requirements of the guy hiring. You do not have the right to demand that I hire you, i do not owe you a job. If you want to work for me I have certain rules/requirements that you need to meet. It would be the same as me claiming discrimination if you don't let me on the autocross course because I don't have a helmet big enough for my head, If I want to run, I need a helmet, My lack of helmet is not caused by the sponsors of the course. How's that for a GRM example?

Again I refer back to previous posts. At one time it was fair to say a your criteria was that a woman couldnt do the job or someone of a certain ethnicity. It's only acceptable if we accept it. If the we can agree that a person without a degree can be just as qualified, if not moreso than one with a degree then it is at best unfair and could eventually be discerned as discriminatory. By current definitions it is not, but the definitions of discrimination are not fixed and a case could be made to change the "rules" as they exist today.

And I'm not talking about a right or demand to be given a job, I'm talking about the right to be considered equally based upon actual skill sets and tangible qualifications for the position.

JThw8 wrote: I can learn in a classroom, the issue I find is the pace is usually too slow but that's actually not an issue it just leads me to self study ahead of the material.

To me this means two things:

1. You're taking the wrong sort of classes. If the pace is too slow in something like "psychology 101" or "art history 202" try "heat transfer II", "kinematics of mechanisms" or my wife's personal favorite "organic chemestry III". Those should fix your pace too slow issue.

2. Since the pace is usually too slow you should be able to make an "A" in most classes and easily earn a degree in no-time flat.

My Dad never finished high school. He always told me to get as much education as possible because it would never hurt you, and nobody could ever take it away from you. I think he was a pretty smart guy.

mblommel wrote:

JThw8 wrote: I can learn in a classroom, the issue I find is the pace is usually too slow but that's actually not an issue it just leads me to self study ahead of the material.

To me this means two things: 1. You're taking the wrong sort of classes. If the pace is too slow in something like "psychology 101" or "art history 202" try "heat transfer II", "kinematics of mechanisms" or my wife's personal favorite "organic chemestry III". Those should fix your pace too slow issue. 2. Since the pace is usually too slow you should be able to make an "A" in most classes and easily earn a degree in no-time flat. My Dad never finished high school. He always told me to get as much education as possible because it would never hurt you, and nobody could ever take it away from you. I think he was a pretty smart guy.

I will agree with point 2 and have said as much without trying to sound to arrogant about it. I could take and ace any class I wanted. But for me the desire is not there. I do not need someone else to define me or my qualifications.

I have received plenty of education, I take training and education anywhere and everywhere I get it. I have qualifications and skills ranging from art to science to literature and many in between. What I don't have is a combination of those which equate to someone else's definition of what "educated" means to be able to put it on a piece of paper to say I'm smart, nor do I care what other people define me as.

DrBoost wrote:

JThw8 wrote: I do find it interesting, and really have no opinion on it other than it's interesting, that the ones that so vehemently oppose what I am suggesting are engineers. Could just be that engineers represent a larger makeup of the board, dunno.

Now I know I'll get flamed here but here goes. I don't think that's just a co-inky-dink. Many of the engineers I've met are terribly arrogant. Now the only one from this board that I have met and I know is an engineer is Alfadriver. Eric is anything but arrogant, he and his wife are great people so I want to get that out of the way. But it seems to me (I could be wrong, I was wrong once back in '83 when I thought I made a mistake but didn't) many engineers think that the degree puts them so much higher than anyone else. I would never argue that they aren't very smart, smarter than me I'm sure since I know I would bomb out at calculus but they seem to think anyone else is lower than them. Funny how when I was a tech at a Jeep dealer (only for a year or so at this point) and a group of engineers from Jeep/Truck Engineering came to me for help. There was a common water leak that plagued YJ and early TJ Wranglers. I found the leak and was fixing them by the dozens. They came to me so I could show them the leak and how I fixed it so they could put that into production. But the whole time I felt I was looked down upon because my hands were dirty. On the up side, one of the engineers was hot

Wow. I have been in that exact place before. Out of the blue one day, the STAR call center is calling to talk to me, some backyard schooled auto mechanic, looking to find out what I had found out on some POS Chrysler that I had called about previous to see if THEY knew anything about how to fix it.

Now if those fudgepacking idiots could fix the outer tierods on the LX bodies, the junky azz swaybar links on caravans, and the kicker actually have a phucking clue on transmission calibrations,I would have been out of bizness.

DrBoost wrote: I don't think that's just a co-inky-dink. Many of the engineers I've met are terribly arrogant. Now the only one from this board that I have met and I know is an engineer is Alfadriver. Eric is anything but arrogant, he and his wife are great people so I want to get that out of the way. But it seems to me (I could be wrong, I was wrong once back in '83 when I thought I made a mistake but didn't) many engineers think that the degree puts them so much higher than anyone else.

i'm one of the arrogant engineers. angrycorvair's the name, pleased to meet you. there's a big difference between coming up with a clever field-fix for an existing design and penning a new design on a blank piece of paper, that is subsequently put through a complete battery of DV and PV testing before going into production. you fixed dozens of vehicles and are to be commended for that. but the engineers who designed and developed that vehicle are responsible for the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. even if, and especially if, we're talking about CYA from a liability standpoint, i'm hiring the guy with the degree.

oh, and DrBoost, i kick ass at writing resumes, so if you'd like me to take a look at yours, i'm pretty sure you've got my email addy.

AngryCorvair wrote: even if, and especially if, we're talking about CYA from a liability standpoint, i'm hiring the guy with the degree.

Interesting comment, do you think in the instance say of the Toyota unintended acceleration fiasco, having a degreed engineer responsible for the catastrophic berkeley up reduces their liability or culpability in any way? If anything with a non-degreed person on staff they'd have a scape goat ;)

So Dr. Boost doesn't have a degree and isn't a real doctor? He's been boosting unlicensed? I can't imagine his spark plug status.

Sorry, just wanted to throw in some lightheartedness in the thread.

I'm 38, have my BA I got after high school. I worked full time and took early morning and night classes to put myself though. I did this because when I was in middle school I saw a friend of my parents going through what Dr. Boost is now.

Like Pinchvalve my BA is in Communications. Like JThw8 I work in IT. I've worked in IT in one form or another for more than 20 years. The degree isn't in my field, but the company I work for won't let you get a foot in the door without a BA. And the Com degree does come in handy on a daily basis, especially with all the documentation I need to write, and people I have to deal with.

When I started they allowed for “equivalent experience” but that got dropped after the last merger. One of my colleagues couldn't be hired today.

My brother-in-law has an associates degree and more than a decade of IT experience. He cant' get anywhere in his company without a bachelors. Can't get hired anywhere else either. I tried getting him in where I am. He got in for the interviews and was liked by management. Got kicked to the curb by HR.

I also work with some folks that have degrees, and masters in IT and are completely clueless and unqualified (in a practical sense) for their job. Frustrates the E36M3 out of me.

We're going through a reorg now. My job could cease to exist at any time. I've had it with IT, and the corporate world. I have a fallback plan in the works. It won't pay as well as what I make now, but nothing else will either.

I look at the college degree as a quarter mile time. It's a way to have a standard to measure dissimilar people. Run a car to 14 flat and you know it can go 14 flat. A person with a BA/BS has a BA/BS. Because the car can run 14 flat doesn't mean it can take a corner. Because a person can get a degree doesn't mean they can do a job. But it gives a standard to form a baseline.

Sorry for the rambling on. Good luck Boost.

-Rob

I have an odd feeling I know where you work Rob ;) I left there after the 50th re-org of the year.

Despite their "policies" about degrees they still ask me to come back so everything is negotiable.

Angry, I hope you don't think I said you were arrogant right? And yes, something I meant to say more specifically is that I do have respect for engineers some of the time. The truth is as my years as a mechanic I saw so many flaws that some times could be attributed to just stupid design/engineering work that I sometimes spout poison about engineers but if I were to engineer the front suspension if a car it would look like 2 praying mantises making hot monkey sex. Engineering, the Medical field, Law are a few of the areas that yes you DO need a degree but Technical Writing or Technical Training? Those are the two jobs I can't land right now even though I've done them for years. Yes you CAN get a degree in either one of these but I would think a tech writer with actual experience repairing cars would be a better writer.
To illustrate both of our points; a good friend of mine is VERY smart. He's the kind of guy that can be given a complex machine, 20 minutes and a few tools and have it apart, back together, understood and improved upon. But he can't express himself very well verbally or worse in written form. He's done some serious engine swaps but as an engineer he'd fail.
And Angry, I might just send you a copy of my resume. I had it professionally written but you can never have too many critical eyes looking at something for you.

DrBoost wrote: Angry, I hope you don't think I said you were arrogant right?

i know you didn't. i just finally felt like i had something to add to this thread. it's all good.

Ok, this thread is getting a bit ugly I think. So, I'll post a picture of a well engineered piece and let our wonderful engineers see if THEY can figure out what's wrong with it

Hotlinked cuz that's how I roll.

DrBoost wrote: To illustrate both of our points; a good friend of mine is VERY smart. He's the kind of guy that can be given a complex machine, 20 minutes and a few tools and have it apart, back together, understood and improved upon. But he can't express himself very well verbally or worse in written form. He's done some serious engine swaps but as an engineer he'd fail.

Similar but not degree related. I spent 12 years in the military, the promotion system is based on a few factors but the largest factor is an annual test on general miliatry knowledge and carrer field specific knowledge. In my 12 year I passed by guys who had been on the job for 20+ in rank. Because I was better at the job than they were? No, because I could take a test blind and pass it whereas they had infinite knowledge of the subject matter but were terrible at testing. Was it fair, hell no, am I a hypocrite because I exploited an unfairness just like I am rallying against here? Perhaps, but the reason my 12 year career wasnt a 20 year (retirement eligible) career was because I chose not to be a part of that system anymore.

DrBoost wrote: Ok, this thread is getting a bit ugly I think. So, I'll post a picture of a well engineered piece and let our wonderful engineers see if THEY can figure out what's wrong with it Hotlinked cuz that's how I roll.

Needs more JB weld :)

And Dr Boost I should apologize for the threadjack. Your plight just resonates with me and the "status quo" annoys me.

DrBoost wrote: Ok, this thread is getting a bit ugly I think. So, I'll post a picture of a well engineered piece and let our wonderful engineers see if THEY can figure out what's wrong with it Hotlinked cuz that's how I roll.

Because someone without a degree designed and made it!!!!

JThw8 wrote: If you can without a doubt say that a person with a degree is ALWAYS the better candidate for a job then I'll quit now.

You give me two absolutely identical people. Same background, same experience, same personality. Person A has a degree to back it all up and person B doesn't, then yes, Person A IS better and WILL get hired, every time.

Now, no 2 people are ever identical. But the theory still stands.

tuna55 wrote:

friedgreencorrado wrote: I don't want to insult xd here, but ever since the Corporate Overlords overran my once wonderful privately held company, I'm beginning to understand that the HR department is often the *enemy*, from resume to retirement. They're no longer just administrators dealing with employee benefits, etc., but now a full-fledged member of the "think of the stockholders" cadre. They are not there to find qualified people to recruit, they're not there to make the workplace a better environment, and they're certainly not there to represent your concerns to the organization at large. They're there to protect the company *from* it's employees. From finding "legal" ways to jettison older or newly disabled workers, to protecting the "rights" of the thin-skinned shiny happy people who take offense at *any* other employees' habits/appearance/words/etc. (after all, the `pantywaists' may sue!), to Zero-Tolerance documentation of simple mistakes in advance, so they can dissmiss at will *anyone* they wish for "non-performance issues". (so that they can illegally dismiss older/disabled workers without having to admit the *real* reasons for such dismissals)

Thanks for saying that, dude. I've worked in three different places as an engineer, and HR is always that way at every place. The first was the worst, though. I remmeber vividly walking into his office determined to get something, walking out with a bright sunshine smile on, making it ten steps, stopping in my tracks and realizing that I got nothing and he made me happy about it. The guy was good, but an ass. HR is supposed to deal with humans as a resource to the company. To liason your employment. What they actually do is consiper with other companies to fix wages, fire people for stupid reasons (sexual harrassment, holy cow!) and produce forms and paperwork while telling you you're not working hard enough, long enough, and you're not getting that rise we promised. I have no idea why. At some point, it's going to topple down, lawyers (and judges) and whiners will all die off, and the capitalism can work again. Right now, with all of the corporate welfare and personal welfare there is, it'll run just like this straight into the ground.

Thanks. I really believe that the evolution of HR from the simple admin of employee matters such as benefits/etc. to "potential profit center" really has a lot to do with this situation...and in the end, has much more to do with these matters than the question of whether or not one possesses a degree.

For example, recall what RobMopar said about his BIL?

Rob_Mopar wrote: I tried getting him in where I am. He got in for the interviews and was liked by management. Got kicked to the curb by HR.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. And in the spirit of "full disclosure", I'll admit that I've recently witnessed my own HR department do something that absolutely disgusted me..a friend at work (again, in FD, actually an ex-girlfriend) was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis a couple of years ago. We work in TV, and her position at the time was with our "Live Event" group (the folks that coordinate the playback of commercials during ballgames, etc. with the remote truck broadcasting the signal to our home base before we sent it up to the sat for y'all to watch at home).

When she was diagnosed with MS, she (and our company) was told by her doctors that she should be reassigned to a position with less stress. Our company responded by returning her to the Master Control pool (the people who are responsible for maintaining the signal you recieve at home). That position "on paper" is less stressful, because the ad rates for commercials is less, but the low-level stress actually lasts longer because you're "on the air" for 4 or 8 hours, instead of the two or three hours that a live event (ballgame, etc.) lasts. She had further flare-ups of her disease, and suffered side affects from her medication. One of those was an increased need to urinate, which is a very bad thing for someone who is "on the air". One fine day, her management had a "consultation" with her about her frequent restroom visits, ignoring the reason for them, and with complete documentation of the exact dates and even the exact times of day she'd had to be relieved by another MC board operator to attend to her condition. She was repremanded for it.

We discovered later that HR had "commanded" her new supervisors to document this kind of thing, because they knew that although it was illegal to fire her for having MS, they thought they could do the deed by ignoring her condition existed (ironically, in the "spirit of equality with other employees") and using the side affects of her treatment as a weapon against her. Fortunately for her, one of the best MS clinics in the country is here in Atlanta, and their staff is familiar with the behavior of large companies for this kind of thing. Fortunately, they were able to get her on "long term disability", and eventually get the company's disability insurance she'd paid for for so long to pay her back.

Weird thing is, before our Corporate Overlords decided they wanted to kick her to the curb, she had an experience just like that of RobMopar's BIL. She wanted to keep working. She actually found a good position with our transmission (the folks that insure our signals from our output center reach the satellites, and also schedule/process the signals from our live remotes into and out of our facility) crew. The boss in that department valued her skill, her experience, and her desire...but HR squashed it because she'd have to take a pay cut to take the job. A pay cut she was ready to take for the opportunity to continue to work.

1.) Aplogies for the length of this post...It just takes a bit to explain what I'm trying to say.

2.) And again, aplogies to anyone who actually works in HR. I'm just hoping that you guys are different than the people that work in that department where I work.

3.) And back to the original topic...I really don't think whether or not you have a degree is really the problem here. I find that (once again, as Rob mentioned about his BIL) there is an artificial, bigoted wall in many companies (but not all..) between the applicant, and the manager that would like to hire that applicant, but can not. IMO, a "bad" HR department is often responsible for the inability to hire the right person for the job...and furthermore, responsible as well for inability of corporations to retain talented workers on the few occasions when other corporations are actuallly hiring. I know that the only reason I'm still where I am is because I'm a native Southerner, and I don't want to move to NYC or LA (or even Miami). If another "major player" in TV moved to Atlanta and offered equal wages/benefits for the same position I hold here, I'd walk away in a heartbeat.

DrBoost wrote: Ok, this thread is getting a bit ugly I think. So, I'll post a picture of a well engineered piece and let our wonderful engineers see if THEY can figure out what's wrong with it Hotlinked cuz that's how I roll.

Ouch. I thought digging bugs out of the fins was tough..
Digging out JB Weld? No thanks...

P71 wrote:

JThw8 wrote: If you can without a doubt say that a person with a degree is ALWAYS the better candidate for a job then I'll quit now.

You give me two absolutely identical people. Same background, same experience, same personality. Person A has a degree to back it all up and person B doesn't, then yes, Person A *IS* better and *WILL* get hired, every time. Now, no 2 people are ever identical. But the theory still stands.

But my question was not based on 2 identical people. My question was in a pool of dissimilar candidates can you ALWAYS say the degreed candidate is the better/more qualifed person for the job.

P71 wrote:

JThw8 wrote: If you can without a doubt say that a person with a degree is ALWAYS the better candidate for a job then I'll quit now.

You give me two absolutely identical people. Same background, same experience, same personality. Person A has a degree to back it all up and person B doesn't, then yes, Person A *IS* better and *WILL* get hired, every time. Now, no 2 people are ever identical. But the theory still stands.

I don't think anyone has a problem with that.

What people have a problem with is the less experienced unrelated degree-holding mouthbreather getting the job over something that's got a ton of experience in the field, and may already currently be doing that same job.

It's the fact that the piece of paper seems to magically make up for shortcomings.

Yeah yeah yeah, jump through the hoops, qualifications and all that. Still doesn't really make it right. But employers can and will do what they want, and that's the end of it.

friedgreencorrado wrote: For example, recall what RobMopar said about his BIL?

Rob_Mopar wrote: I tried getting him in where I am. He got in for the interviews and was liked by management. Got kicked to the curb by HR.

Keeping in the spirit of full disclosure as well, my BIL signed up for night classes and is working on an accelerated business degree. It's going pretty well. Sure there are some classes he has to take that don't hold any value for him other than a requirement for the degree, but he knows to give the professor what they are looking for.

My colleague signed up for an online degree program as well. I haven't talked to him to see where he's at with it, but last time I did he said it was going well. He's doing that as his backup plan should the latest reorg "dis-org" him.

And for that friend of my parent's that inspired me to push through getting my degree, he got a bachelor's taking night classes and raising 3 kids. Got him into a good company. That company paid for his masters degree and he's still employed there.

So chalk this post up to positive karma or something. I need to get back to work before I'm unemployable...

-Rob

Also, FWIW, places really do value our kind of experience. During the interviews for the current job, one of the interviewers skipped past all of the stuff about school, previous jobs, etc., and went right to the bullet point I had under "Other" about being on the Board of Directors for the Atlanta Region SCCA. He said, "So - you're a car guy. Tell me about that." I got about 2 minutes into describing my homebrew Turbo Civic and he interupted me by saying "Damn - well I guess I don't need to know any more about your technical qualifications. If you can built that, you can handle anything we throw your way."

Of course, one of the other interviewers went to the same school as me. We spent most of the interview comparing notes on previous professors that we had both had. That's one of the unquantifiable benefits to the college degree.

I have a Journalism degree and I am a Technical Writer by trade.

DrBoost wrote: Engineering, the Medical field, Law are a few of the areas that yes you DO need a degree but Technical Writing or Technical Training? Those are the two jobs I can't land right now even though I've done them for years. Yes you CAN get a degree in either one of these but I would think a tech writer with actual experience repairing cars would be a better writer.

In reality, you need both types of people, so I understand your plight on this one. Most of the other Tech Writers (when I worked at MerCruiser) had been pulled off the line, so they intimately knew the products. However, most were mediocre writers at best.

Fortunately, I'm a mechanically-minded person who can work with my hands and pick up on things FAST.

My background as a trained writer allowed me to become the most productive Tech Writer on the team of 10, while also taking over the role of Editor and Style Committee representative within a matter of 6 months. This was also my first job as a Tech Writer.

So basically, my education allowed me to come in and accomplish in 6 months, what other writers there hadn't accomplished in 10 years.

JThw8 wrote: I will agree with point 2 and have said as much without trying to sound to arrogant about it. I could take and ace any class I wanted. But for me the desire is not there. I do not need someone else to define me or my qualifications. I have received plenty of education, I take training and education anywhere and everywhere I get it. I have qualifications and skills ranging from art to science to literature and many in between. What I don't have is a combination of those which equate to someone else's definition of what "educated" means to be able to put it on a piece of paper to say I'm smart, nor do I care what other people define me as.

I'm now more confused by your position. You choose not to finish the education, since you do not desire it, but since you do not desire an education, you feel that people should still reguard your skill sets as having it??

Jobs are defined by skill sets/qualifications required- much like how parts need to be designed and put into production. But you don't want your skills to be defined and used?

I just don't get it.

AFAIKT, you are being more stubborn that we are- insisting that you CAN get the education (easily, by your own posts), but insist that your choice should not be held against you. Odd.

BTW, what's interesting, you say you get the shaft, and others have posted about affirmative action being unfair. Well two things on that- first, since you are military, you actually have affirmative action working in your favor- not in the sense of minorities, but government positions automatically give you an advantage when hiring for a job. Try a govenment agency.

Second, actual affirmative action- the whole "quota" thing has been thrown out, based on a lawsuit vs the University of Michigan Law School. What affirmative action should do is attempt to find minority candidates, and then judge them on an equal playing field. If you are blaming affirmative action on you not geting a job, you should look in the mirror, and find your issues first before blaming someone else.

I see nothing wrong with that intercooler, that's just a 'field repair.' Rev2 will have full alum end tanks and be welded.. not because of a defect, but because it aids production ;)