It's akin to Billionaire sports team owners demanding the PUBLIC pay for the teams new stadium, instead of paying for it themselves. And that has shown time and time again, the promised benefits are never realized.
And my city is a perfect example of it. If Seattle voters had appeased the owners group of the SuperSonics by paying for their new stadium, there would not an NBA team in an arena 20 minutes from my house in OKC.
In reply to z31maniac :
My favorite story of voting involves a stadium. Many years ago, it was put to a vote about replacing Three Rivers Stadium in Pittsburgh, despite still owing like $300 million on it, with something a bit more modern. The publicly overwhelmingly voted NO. like 65 percent plus of people voted no. And then what happened you may ask? We got TWO new stadiums, paid for by the city.
Greg Smith said:Hm, so what you're saying is, if cutting taxes to get Amazon jobs works, they should consider cutting all business taxes? I'm down with that :)
That’s exactly what I’m saying. There are plenty of employers already here struggling to stay open because of the various taxes and fees the state and city collect from them. One of the reasons the property Amazon wants is available is due to companies moving to less expensive states. Why is it ok to tell existing small and midsize companies to leave if it’s to expensive then give what is now looking like it could be up to $3 billion in tax breaks, grants, etc to Amazon?
xflowgolf said:Not sure this has any merit, but this "expert" believes it's down to D.C. or New York City, with a dark horse being Miami.
Sound points though. Bezos has homes in New York and D.C. already. Regulatory action and impact is going to be a part of their corporate existence. Young talent wants to live there (don't care about housing costs).
good call mr "expert". back in feburary haha.
I do think that for all cities on the short list, they should have been well aware that they were going to have to compete with the cities where bezos lives...
z31maniac said:It's akin to Billionaire sports team owners demanding the PUBLIC pay for the teams new stadium, instead of paying for it themselves. And that has shown time and time again, the promised benefits are never realized.
And my city is a perfect example of it. If Seattle voters had appeased the owners group of the SuperSonics by paying for their new stadium, there would not an NBA team in an arena 20 minutes from my house in OKC.
It also may be pretty unethical to sell tobacco and alcohol like phillip morris and budweiser. Or to manufacture your tech gadgets in china, sell them in USA, and pay taxes on the whole process from your "HQ" in ireland. But obviously they CAN do it.
It's not that I disagree with you guys. I'm just trying to point out that there are usually realistic arguments for both sides of any story.
Our brilliant Mayor answered some questions today.
When asked why he’s such an enthusiastic supporter of Amazon while he’s spent a decade making sure Walmart doesn’t open a store in NYC he said:
“The difference here is … the actual front-line work of Walmart,” the mayor responded. “They were going to put vast big-box stories in New York City that would have started to undermine [local] retail.”
“Amazon is … part of the American economy,” he continued. “I would ask every good progressive, every listener out there who has a concern about Amazon: How many are using Amazon as part of their daily lives? Whatever you like or dislike about Amazon, Walmart is an entirely different universe in terms of the efforts they’ve undertaken to not only undermine labor, small business, the environment … and obviously the politics of [Walmart’s owners] the Walton family to add to it,” referring to the Waltons’ track record of funneling megabucks to conservative causes.
https://nypost.com/2018/11/16/heres-de-blasios-logic-for-loving-amazon-but-hating-walmart/
Wally said:Our brilliant Mayor answered some questions today.
When asked why he’s such an enthusiastic supporter of Amazon while he’s spent a decade making sure Walmart doesn’t open a store in NYC he said:
“The difference here is … the actual front-line work of Walmart,” the mayor responded. “They were going to put vast big-box stories in New York City that would have started to undermine [local] retail.”
“Amazon is … part of the American economy,” he continued. “I would ask every good progressive, every listener out there who has a concern about Amazon: How many are using Amazon as part of their daily lives? Whatever you like or dislike about Amazon, Walmart is an entirely different universe in terms of the efforts they’ve undertaken to not only undermine labor, small business, the environment … and obviously the politics of [Walmart’s owners] the Walton family to add to it,” referring to the Waltons’ track record of funneling megabucks to conservative causes.
https://nypost.com/2018/11/16/heres-de-blasios-logic-for-loving-amazon-but-hating-walmart/
There was a big “NY is open for business” TV campaign that ran out here in California not too long ago.
I thought the whole thing was really awkward and tone deaf. So, you’re hoping to lure my business to NY by placing your own loyal companies at a competitive disadvantage.
Um, am I not supposed to realize that you’ll be throwing me under the bus (see what I did there Wally) next???
In reply to Wally :
How has your brilliant mayor not drowned in his own saliva yet? That's just...wow.
In reply to RevRico :
He’s very tall
In reply to RX Reven' :
That was the latest in a long string of programs aimed at throwing money at new companies. Some existing companies were able to cash in by threatening to leave and others got money by changing their names and rehiring everyone as a new company. It even got a catchy name, shirt changing, and had to be banned after a while.
Thankfully no one was actually thrown under a bus. There’s a lot of paperwork to do then and the last time it happened I ruined a nice tie crawling around taking pictures.
Robbie said:z31maniac said:It's akin to Billionaire sports team owners demanding the PUBLIC pay for the teams new stadium, instead of paying for it themselves. And that has shown time and time again, the promised benefits are never realized.
And my city is a perfect example of it. If Seattle voters had appeased the owners group of the SuperSonics by paying for their new stadium, there would not an NBA team in an arena 20 minutes from my house in OKC.It also may be pretty unethical to sell tobacco and alcohol like phillip morris and budweiser. Or to manufacture your tech gadgets in china, sell them in USA, and pay taxes on the whole process from your "HQ" in ireland. But obviously they CAN do it.
It's not that I disagree with you guys. I'm just trying to point out that there are usually realistic arguments for both sides of any story.
100% agree.
RX Reven' said:Wally said:Our brilliant Mayor answered some questions today.
When asked why he’s such an enthusiastic supporter of Amazon while he’s spent a decade making sure Walmart doesn’t open a store in NYC he said:
“The difference here is … the actual front-line work of Walmart,” the mayor responded. “They were going to put vast big-box stories in New York City that would have started to undermine [local] retail.”
“Amazon is … part of the American economy,” he continued. “I would ask every good progressive, every listener out there who has a concern about Amazon: How many are using Amazon as part of their daily lives? Whatever you like or dislike about Amazon, Walmart is an entirely different universe in terms of the efforts they’ve undertaken to not only undermine labor, small business, the environment … and obviously the politics of [Walmart’s owners] the Walton family to add to it,” referring to the Waltons’ track record of funneling megabucks to conservative causes.
https://nypost.com/2018/11/16/heres-de-blasios-logic-for-loving-amazon-but-hating-walmart/
There was a big “NY is open for business” TV campaign that ran out here in California not too long ago.
I thought the whole thing was really awkward and tone deaf. So, you’re hoping to lure my business to NY by placing your own loyal companies at a competitive disadvantage.
Um, am I not supposed to realize that you’ll be throwing me under the bus (see what I did there Wally) next???
That article is just, wow. I'm dumbfounded by.......no words.
'Depression. Here it’s all about keeping things in perspective. One the one hand, yes, it’s a shame to miss out on the jobs and infrastructure investment. On the other hand, on sunny Saturdays not every inch of green space will be tied up with impromptu Quidditch matches.'
What the heck is Quidditch? 
I thought the pharmas already proved that paying government officials is the best ROI of any other business growth spending, by like 10,000%.
Walmart, it would seem, made a large mistake by picking a side.
It's much more effective to give all represetatives $1m than it is to give half of them $2m. Silly Walmart.
In reply to nutherjrfan :
Quidditch is a game from the Harry Potter books. Nothing will make you miss the days of tripping over junkies and hearing gunshots quite like seeing “grown” adults prancing around on broomsticks.
ok Fox News alert. Run away. 
also with the Green New Deal musings on air travel and LaGuardia being in her district will the young lady even win re-election?
Hey possibly more jobs for the Washington area if Amazon does bail on NY,NY. 
Of course Nashville could be back in the running.
In reply to nutherjrfan :
There's a lot of opposition to Amazon locating HQ2 (3?) in New York by residents of the surrounding suburbs as well as many of the unions there. I hear something probably once a week on NPR during my trip home about the organized opposition to the Amazon HQ for various reasons.
Residents are opposed because the location is close to the last "affordable" suburbs of NYC and is guaranteed to push valuations, and thusly property taxes, over the edge for current residents.
Most unions are opposed because, well, Amazon is staunchly anti-union. I believe the security contractors union is on board.
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez really is representing the views of her district in this case.
OTOH Crystal City (trying to re-brand as "National Landing") is pretty excited to get HQ2(3?) because it helps diversify the community away from its near sole reliance on government contractors. Even more so now after the 35 day shutdown.
In reply to The0retical :
They aren’t looking to build in a suburb but in the city. There’s plenty of opposition from the left and the right because the state and city both bypassed all the channels they are supposed to go through when giving out money. This is usually a good sign that there’s a lot wrong with the deal. The Governor already has associates headed to jail of similar deals and the mayor seems to be easily corrupted as well. That they admitted to $3 billion in giveaways makes people think the deal is pretty bad. Our Governor has a habit of grand projects he can put his name on that won’t pan out with the hope that they stay together at least until he runs for President.
In reply to nutherjrfan :
She’ll easily win re-election. That she managed to get and then win a primary against a well entrenched party boss shows how much support she has there. Like many supporters of the President, most of her constituents know a lot of what she’s pushing won’t happen but they like that she’s shaking up the establishment.
In reply to Wally :
You'd know better than me. Suburb was the wrong term, I should have said neighborhood as it is Queens proper.
I just know they're going to base it in Long Island City and there has been concerns from both residents of Long Island City and Sunnyside about what it's going to do to housing prices. They're being vocal enough that it's made it to the Philadelphia news channels. Those are the people that appear to compromise most of AOC's base.
As for the deal Amazon got, I've said my piece in this thread.
In reply to The0retical :
I have to give the Governor credit for one thing, people on both sides of the political spectrum feel this is a bad deal and want more details to prove its value and since no one is answering any questions makes it look like this is every bit as ugly as it seems. Housing is a issue because there’s not much available in the area already and the existing transit infrastructure is very old and running pretty much at capacity. When pressed for how they plan to address it they pointed out a helipad and ferry that are heavily subsidized by the city.
In reply to Wally :
I caught the helipad bit a few weeks ago... It's a very married a Kennedy answer to the problem. (Or was at one point anyway.)
I'm glad my area didn't make the cut. They're still being sued by numerous organizations to release the offer and justification. Nothing like wasting resources.
More jobs here please.
Workers unite. Just say no to jobs people!
It's an interesting situation for both NYC and Amazon. One of the things that is always off is the expected economic benefits that these incentive packages always list. Most of them never actually come true. They are usually a pie in the sky proposal that looks great on paper but long term never comes true.
I'll use my company Dell as an example. While we have been a long time staple in the Austin tech scene, We only met the projections for the total HC in the region twice in 25 years that we outlined in the overall tax benefit proposal when we built the campuses. Now we just a little over half of what our highest ever HC has been in Austin area. We have sold off building after building in the area and now are half the overall real estate holding too.
If there was a payback clause or a performance clause in the contract it would be a different story. I don't ever see any of those details brought up when they are discussing the contracts publicly. It would be an entirely different story if Amazon was penalized for missing HC and salary goals. Of course I don't think any company would accept a proposal like that.
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