America owes Toyota an apology

Toyota owes me an apology for creating a car that's a magnet for obama stickers and 5 mph below the speed limit left lane hogs. The combination of which has caused me severe brain injury due to repeated head-smacks on the steering wheel.

alfadriver wrote:

96DXCivic wrote:

Cotton wrote:

96DXCivic wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Well, to be fair, we should also apologize to Ford (Pinto and Explorer), Audi (5000), GM (trucks) etc. OTOH, it's nice to see Toyota knocked off their pedestool. Just had a Yaris rental- what a total piece of junk. Terrible car- I think people use the "reliabilty" excuse for their reason to buy such garbage. Eric

I drove a Yaris and I thought it was pretty fun.

If that's the only car you've ever driven in you life then, yeah, you may have something there.

I guess to be fair It was modified a little.

Rental, 4 speed (hello- this is the 21st century, can we say 5 or 6 speed?), 1.6l (decent enough)- terrible interior. the center dash idea is a complete fail. I hated that I had to look away from straight to see important info- that was the first thing I saw and hated. second was the horrible plastics- every single surface was hard as a rock. very uncomfortable. third was a hard to deal with driving position- but other people may like that. funny enough- a nit pick was the total manual everything- locks, mirrors, windows, everything- I guess it's the bottom of bottom line cars. What bugged me most was the lack of refinement in the powertrain. Bad idle quality, and terrible driveability in the hills- step in, step in, step in (DOWNSHIFT) back out, back out, upshift, repeat about 100 times. We fixed that problem 20 years ago- when did Toyota forget that? For thier reputation, the car was horrible. If it were a Hyundai, it would have been just bad. But T is held in such regard, the only think I could think of is people use the "reliability and reputation" as excuses for them buying complete pieces of junk. How else would this thing sell in such numbers? Eric

Yeah the interior did kinda suck but I didn't think the drivetrain was the worst thing I have driven by far but my range of cars is somewhat limited. The Yaris I drove was a five speed manual. I liked the manual everything. I was disappointed it had power steering. The only modifications were Tien coilovers, Ultra High Performance Summer tires (don't remember who made them) and new seats of some kind.

So just out of curiousity, is the NHSTA going to return the largest recall-related fine ever that they collected from Toyota?

Maybe wrapped in a Punked! sticker?

Maybe you missed my post?

racerfink wrote: Maybe you missed my post?

The link to the bullied professor and the ABC special? Is that the same special that was later discovered to have been rigged, ie the test setup sent a false signal to the ECU to "recreate" the unintended acceleration?

Believe, I'm anything but a Toyota fanboi, I actually work for one of their direct competitors. That being said, I also don't like it when the mob chooses to blame someone, whether they're guilty or not. Valvesprings, Tundra frame rust issues, Corolla steering racks, there's plenty of things you can pick on Toyota for that they freely acknowledge they screwed up. The one thing they say, "Um yeah, we checked, its not us." and everyone presses suit begging to differ, that I'll sympathize with Toyota on.

EDIT: When I say "you can pick on" I mean you in the collective sense of the public, not you in particular racerfink.

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha..

Flynlow wrote:

racerfink wrote: Maybe you missed my post?

The link to the bullied professor and the ABC special? Is that the same special that was later discovered to have been rigged, ie the test setup sent a false signal to the ECU to "recreate" the unintended acceleration? Believe, I'm anything but a Toyota fanboi, I actually work for one of their direct competitors. That being said, I also don't like it when the mob chooses to blame someone, whether they're guilty or not. Valvesprings, Tundra frame rust issues, Corolla steering racks, there's plenty of things you can pick on Toyota for that they freely acknowledge they screwed up. The one thing they say, "Um yeah, we checked, its not us." and everyone presses suit begging to differ, that I'll sympathize with Toyota on. EDIT: When I say "you can pick on" I mean you in the collective sense of the public, not you in particular racerfink.

That's the whole premise of a lab test, to try and re-create situations in the lab that happen in the field. It's spelled out rather plainly in the article that that is what he did.

racerfink wrote: That's the whole premise of a lab test, to try and re-create situations in the lab that happen in the field. It's spelled out rather plainly in the article that that is what he did.

That doesn't mean that a single college professor is smarter or more truthful than the entire Automotive Industry, NHSTA, several other government agencies, and outside test groups (Consumer Reports, etc.). Maybe the reason Toyota "harassed" him, is he was slandering? I don't know, just speculating, but I read the entire article, and it seemed a bit sensationalist. Toyota hired an outside agency to confirm his testing and couldn't? Considering what we know now, that's not terribly surprising, nor did it strike me as threatening. Most professors are used to having to defend their work, ask any Masters or PhD candidate defending a thesis about harassment. They quietly told a university official they were going to stop charitable donations to a school that is publicly badmouthing them? Not quite the same as breaking the guys kneecaps.

I'll bite on this one. I rarely do, I only feel like I should speak up when I'm semi-knowledgeable about the subject matter, but this is something I know a little about.

I'm not familiar with his entire situation and test rig, so what follows is semi-educated speculation, based on the fact that acceleration testing is one of my job responsibilities:

Most DBW pedals have six wires (Toyotas included), one of which is the signal wire, that usually runs from 0-5 Volts, varying depending on how much the pedal is pressed down (0v = idle, 5V = WOT). Typically WOT happens at anything over 4.5V. The ECU receives that signal, compares it to a Pedal vs. Throttle DBW map, and commands the corresponding voltage at the throttle body, with some adjustment for speed, rpm, or any other parameter some shiny happy engineer like me thinks is appropriate.

If you set a test rig up with switched power source on the signal line to command >4.5 V at the flick of a switch, you can command WOT at any time by turning that switch ON, regardless of what the pedal does. What exactly is that supposed to prove? To me that test is meaningless. I had an old Datsun in school that was crosswired all to hell by a previous owner. I didn't hold Nissan at fault when their factory harness didn't work right with the wrong signals being sent.

Again none of this is directed at you personally, my thinking out loud/speculation can sometimes seem like an argument, it's not intended that way. Just soliciting feedback.

Here's the bigger article that I actually read first earlier in the week. It explains a whole lot more than the condensed one I posted earlier. http://www.suntimes.com/business/2486366,toyota-lashed-out-siu-professor-071110.article

blaze86vic wrote: I really don't care, with all the BS the American auto makes have had to put up with for the past 3 years, Toyota needs to just suck it up. They wanted to be #1, well welcome to the top! Here is you #1 mug, and your 10,000,000 false allegations with years of unwarranted bad publicity from people poking any way they can at the leader.

Hmmm, I can kinda get behind this statement...

poopshovel wrote: Toyota owes me an apology for creating a car that's a magnet for obama stickers and 5 mph below the speed limit left lane hogs. The combination of which has caused me severe brain injury due to repeated head-smacks on the steering wheel.

tHIS....

I for one questioned most of the claims made. Having said that, most of Toyota's superior quality reputation should be thrown out the window. They've had their share of issues as much as most car companies nowadays. Chevrolet and Ford are probably very close to them now (as they've vastly improved in the past decade also).

That said, Toyota has no products that interest me anymore (Honda is desperately heading down this route too) so I won't be buying any of their products for the forseeable future (though my sister has been very pleased by her Scion).

^Other than the 30mpg the M-I-L gets out of her xA, they really are unpleased by theirs. Super thin paint, rattles in the interior, trim panels coming loose.... after they paid $18k. I'd be a little pissed too.

I don't owe anyone an apology, especially a corporation that doesn't give a rats ass about who I am and I hope America feels the same way. Doesn't matter what the issue be there was a defective part on a product that consumers purchased, ultimately it's Toyota's fault for letting this go by and it's not our obligation or priority to apologize to them in any manner.

Not so fast fellas! Apparently the "source" of the story is Toyota itself...

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/15/report-wsj-unintended-acceleration-story-planted-by-toyota/

Deport rupert murdoch.

P71 wrote: Not so fast fellas! Apparently the "source" of the story is Toyota itself... http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/15/report-wsj-unintended-acceleration-story-planted-by-toyota/

Dohoho!!!!

So you think that there were more than one instance out of 3,000 investigated in which there was a malfunction, and that Toyota has just dealt the final blow to their own reputation by faking results generated by the NHTSA?

I think that now it doesn't matter even if the findings were true. By Toyota secretly leaking the info, it's basically all over. Consumer backlash will be brutal.

I honestly don't think it's a computer malfunction per say (I mean come on, anybody that willingly buys a beige Toyota is probably too dumb to remember which pedal does what anyways) but I do think the corporate cultural has been a huge failure. By hiding all of the legitimate recalls and being so secretive and exploitative on this one I think they have lost their reputation, and will take decades to get back.

^ yep!

AE86 is probably at the top of my project want list, right next to 70s celicas, IS300 , and maybe a 2nd gen supra. Seriously. But you couldnt pay me to purchase a Toyota now. I think its similar to how Chebby decided they didnt care what people thought in the 80s/90s. it will haunt Yota in a similar fashion I think.

In reply to Flynlow:

saying "we think you should change your findings to reflect what we want, or we'll pull your funding" is the same as the helmet manufacturers getting that motorcycle magazine writer fired by threatening to pull their ads. for an article he didn't even write in the magazine.

its the companies trying to control the truth being said about them. any way you slice it, its morally if not legally wrong

since you're an engineer:
if you were designing a part that was likely to be stepped on with dirty, wet, muddy, etc. feet around 50% of the time that a vehicle was in operation, that was mission critical to the proper workings and safety of the vehicle, would you design that part to be made of a material that was not dimensionally stable in varying humidity? toyota's engineers did. to save .01c per car maybe. to hell with them, they're no better than all the rest. anything to save a dollar

Strizzo wrote: In reply to Flynlow: since you're an engineer: if you were designing a part that was likely to be stepped on with dirty, wet, muddy, etc. feet around 50% of the time that a vehicle was in operation, that was mission critical to the proper workings and safety of the vehicle, would you design that part to be made of a material that was not dimensionally stable in varying humidity? toyota's engineers did. to save .01c per car maybe. to hell with them, they're no better than all the rest. anything to save a dollar

I don't know any engineers that will cut corners like that except industrial engineers. It is probably the accountants and business majors that make decisions like that.

Strizzo wrote: its the companies trying to control the truth being said about them. any way you slice it, its morally if not legally wrong

I used to work in PR. What you are describing as unethical (maybe) or illegal (it's not) is done every day in every newspaper and news broadcast. It is literally everywhere, everyday. Whenever you see a big news item about a drug, a company, a consumer product, a noteworthy statistic or research study - you can bet your ass that someone (or their competitor!) has paid somebody to get the story in front of a journalist so that it might make the news.

Still doesn't make it right.

nderwater wrote:

Strizzo wrote: its the companies trying to control the truth being said about them. any way you slice it, its morally if not legally wrong

I used to work in PR. What you are describing as unethical (maybe) or illegal (it's not) is done every day in every newspaper and news broadcast. It is literally everywhere, everyday. Whenever you see a big news item about a drug, a company, a consumer product, a noteworthy statistic or research study - you can bet your ass that someone (or their competitor!) has paid somebody to get the story in front of a journalist so that it might make the news.

I don't think it's a question of getting a story in front of a news agency. As you said, that's just PR. I think it's a question of whether or not Toyota is either posing as the NHTSA and passing information off as if it were the NHTSA, or outright lying, or whatever. I only read through the article quickly, but it seemed to suggest that Toyota was telling people the NHTSA tests proved one thing, when NHTSA said they weren't even finished with them.

nderwater wrote:

Strizzo wrote: its the companies trying to control the truth being said about them. any way you slice it, its morally if not legally wrong

I used to work in PR. What you are describing as unethical (maybe) or illegal (it's not) is done every day in every newspaper and news broadcast. It is literally everywhere, everyday. Whenever you see a big news item about a drug, a company, a consumer product, a noteworthy statistic or research study - you can bet your ass that someone (or their competitor!) has paid somebody to get the story in front of a journalist so that it might make the news.

Nderwater, you are spot-on!

The job of anyone in PR is to manage their company's information, even when it concerns bad news. Sometimes the company really screws-the-pooch and sometimes the PR staff does the same, but ultimately it's the corporate side that approves what the public sees and hears.

OTOH, this whole affair also reflects on the piss-poor state of contemporary "journalism" where media outlets rush to publish "news" without due diligence towards investigation and verification of actual facts.