American attitudes, where are we at today.

Thanks Gary. I'm not looking for sympathy, I just want everyone to understand that while the playing field isn't level and not everyone has the same opportunity, your chance at success goes even beyond that. Lots of luck involved. Good and bad.

I have question, not an argument, for all those saying there are opportunities, or another way to those on the lower end of the socioeconomic way of the spectrum.

How is someone who has never known any different, supposed to recognize/create these opportunities?

By being told it?

That argument doesn't hold water anymore with modern day technologies. You have to be willfully ignorant at that point to not hear the message.

I do agree, if you (general you) grew up with deadbeat parents, the tides are against you in being successful with life. But I think it comes down to personality as well. Some people simply are not meant to succeed in life because of themselves.

There is literally NOTHING stopping ANYONE from getting an education in North America. Sure, you'll have to sell your soul for loans, but take your #yoloswag420 attitude and maybe apply it to success.

I would argue that there are two types of poverty; forced and self-inflicted.

We are not talking about people who are forced into poverty (mentally ill which I do not include drug addicts in, physically disabled, etc). These people need our help.

But I hear a lot of excuses in this thread for people who are capable of working. Single mom with three kids? Well, I can point out a couple issues there. But MOVE. Bus tickets aren't expensive. Sure you may have to sleep in a shelter for a while to save up for rent in a new place, but if you want a better life, that is what you have to do. People shouldn't have to pay that for you (of course, I think a program where you could get a government assisted damage deposit on a place would be amazing for those who can demonstrate they need it and will put it to good use)!

Let me share a story about "the poor". Might help some of you frame your perspectives.

Years back, when I was working with Habitat for Humanity, they were struggling with homeowners failing to maintain their homes. They would do house visits, and the houses were totally crapped out. Garbage everywhere, clothes in heaps on the floor, vermin infestation, etc.

Then they noticed that most of the bedroom closets were empty, or full of boxes, but not clothes.

They started asking people why they were not using their closets.

Turns out, a lot of people simply didn't know what that "tiny room in the corner" was for.

Not only had none of these people ever owned houses, neither had any of their families before them, and they didn't have a clue about the most basic of basics. The E36 M3ty slum shacks they had lived in certainly didn't have closets- many didn't have a floor or running water. They had bigger things to consider, like will my baby get rabies if bitten by a rat, or who the berkeley the pusher is who is trying to sell my teens crack in our front yard.

Habitat re-vamped everything to have a much more involved homeowner training and awareness program, and helped a lot of people make some important life changes (including jobs, education, family planning, etc.)

So, when I hear suggestions like "It's a choice- they should move", it makes the hair stand up on my neck. Frankly, some folks are clueless. Both sides- poor people don't understand how to make positive changes, and wealthier people (like everyone on this board) have no idea how to help them, or what they are dealing with.

I'd rather not argue about "the poor" like some political football by throwing around elitist bullE36 M3, and start relating to struggling people as humans who need a hand.

And I find it offensive to lump "poor college kids" with truly chronically poor, so I will not be able to agree with any "transitional" perspectives (although I understand these people are often included by politicians and others when referencing the "poverty line").

HiTempguy wrote: By being told it?

I just want to back up and give a parallel here to more of the human condition than to actually being a direct example.

I came from a lower middle class family in East Tennessee. I was raised by a father, that more or less, never had a stable job the entire time I can remember. He did collections and repo-ed and never had enough money saved up for next months bills. We ended up living with my grandparents and aunt and all the funds that actually took to raise a child came from them. He rarely had them. He knew better. He had a degree in broadcast engineering right when local TV was starting to get big, he was a sergeant in the Army, and his only problem was his attitude, and toward the end work ethic. I was never taught about money, I was never taught about how to plan for the future. I am just now, at 39, realizing the mistakes of my youth. I have missed meals because I had no money and I have been 1 weeks away from having my family on the streets. I am now actively searching for ways to improve my situation. For the last 8 years I have had a mechanical engineering degree from a Top 30 Engineering school, I have worked for companies that have sent me around the world and even after I have quit still ask me for advice on product issues. I am considered by many as a very smart person, I consider myself clever with a very varied background that gives me a unique perspective.

After all of that, why am I not rich? I have no work ethic? Up until I went to my second job after college I had two jobs. I was an engineer and sold cars, before that I went to college, did a school job that was research for American Honda and sold cars, before the cars thing in college I worked for the food service company and still had my project and school. Before that I was a bartender and did wrenching and autobody for people. Most of my life I have had 2 major employments or employment and academic commitments since I was 15. I think I have a decent work ethic.

Yesterday, I had $143 to my name. I got paid today so after rent on Wednesday add $200 to that, to last a family of 4 two weeks of food and groceries and fuel and my oldest eats like he is a 17 year old.

I have skills and work ethic and ability yet I still struggle hand to mouth. I have listened to that tired line "pick yourself up by your bootstraps and work harder and you will succeed." I will tell you right now, that is not the answer. Those are required to succeed, that is not what will make you succeed. Kind of like "To finish first, you must first finish" in the real world it's "To Succeed, you must first work hard" Just because you finish, doesn't mean you are first the same way hard work doesn't guarantee you to be succesful and have a steady income or financial security. Ask anyone who worked the railroads vs anyone running them.

I am not talking about a $1 Million either. I am talking about 1 months worth of bills.

Now my situation will get better. I am typing this between looking for a part time job I can work with my main job. I have a schedule of promotions and raises and as long as I can manage my increasing costs I should be fine. I don't want a pity party. I am just saying with my advantages, I am not far off those that you are vilifying and I know better than most of them.

People who don't know, need alot more than a "get off your dead ass and work harder" They need someone to teach them what they don't know. what they don't even know they don't know. This isn't a bench racing exercise for me. I have walked through projects and knocked on doors and volunteered in organizations that deal with the working poor and most of the time it is they don't know that they need to know, that takes mentoring and that takes time. You say it is easy in todays modern world. The person working two jobs with kids does not have the time to take care of them to find somewhere that has a free internet, or an open all night library, and pay someone to watch the kids, or let them sleep in the corner, while they make a plan trying to figure out what they don't know.

Now, I think I understand, if I am right, I agree, that there are a large portion of people that just don't want to do it. Most I have found vote Republican, which I find perplexing and a whole other issue, and I have a great example. Buddy of mine was looking for a job. I knew a company that would like to have his skills and would give him $40k to start, feed him while he was working, and at the end of year 1, if he did what he was told, would be making $65k. It went up from there and you get the idea. (I shared this with a GRM member late last year for him) My buddies response? "I aint moving and all my problems are because of Obama." His poverty is his fault. I get that. Those people, IMHO are the minority not the majority. Maybe that is where we have a different point of view, the volume of those people.

HiTempguy wrote: That argument doesn't hold water anymore with modern day technologies. You have to be willfully ignorant at that point to not hear the message.

How about the 14% of Americans who are illiterate and can't read things on the internet?

Your technology is only helpful for them to watch cat videos on YouTube.

You make a very good point SVrex. It is not enough to work hard or have a good work ethic.. you need to know what it is you do not know. Telling people to "work hard and you will succeed" is like telling a 1st grader that he needs to take a basic algebra test to get into second grade.. without being taught how to do it

I grew up poor, my Father came out of the service with two artificial hips and a medical discharge that allowed him to collect just enough benefits to survive.. and they used to periodically cut them off so they could re-evaluate him to see if maybe his hips had grown back and he could go back to work. He had no skills besides what he learned in the navy, no school (HS dropout) and when he did try to better himself through education, they came along and told him.. that if he could go to school, he could go to work, and that was the end of the benefits.

By the time he got them back.. we had sold everything but the house and car.. and those were for sale.

In reply to wbjones:

not every single Mom is a baby factory because … welfare yo …. many people get married way young, then break up after having kids … many times the Dad becoming a dead beat Dad … leaving Mom to take care of the kids … many times without any family structure behind them … and as often as not, with zero skills … this usually equals min. wage jobs ..assuming they can find some way to take care of the kids AND work .. day care is more expensive than a min. wage job can support … that throws them back into the welfare racket

What state doesn't have child support laws? Why isn't the father providing for his kids? Divorce happens, there are a lot of single mothers. Most care for their kids. Did she have a kid with a man unwilling or unable to support their child? Bad choice. Can only get a minimum wage job? No family support on either side? No ties to where they live (job, family) but still can't leave? I call bullE36 M3 on that one. The truth is, it's easier to play the victim than to fix the problem. And people like you hurt them when you pat them on their head and say "It's not your fault, and there is nothing you can do. I'll take care of you. And by "I" I mean other people. And by "take care," I mean keep you poor and reliant on the government until you die." And don't get me started on deadbeat dads. They are one of the lowest forms of life. They aren't men.

your rant sounds a bit elitist, snobby, and condescending (as do the rest of your rants … i.e. "if you're trying to raise a family on a min. wage job, you're doing something wrong" ) keep in mind that without skills min. wage is often the only thing available … assuming it's available at all … and "just move" … ain't possible in many cases … like I said, very condescending and snobby … sounds to me like you've never been it that type of situation and had responsibilities that "kept" you down … it's a pretty vicious cycle

You have got it backwards. I'm not elitist... I'm the one saying that just about everyone has the ability to avoid or pull themselves out of poverty. They just need to try. And work. And sacrafice. Generations before us sacraficed everything so that we have the opportunities that we have today. Your comments on the other hand, betray you as the elitist. You don't believe that these people have the ability to improve their situation? To make more than minimum wage? Why not? In your opinion, are they not smart enough? Not capable of hard work? Do you pity them? The sad thing is people like you are very convincing. You come off as their savior, when in fact you are their greatest threat.

As for me, I've busted my ass my whole life. I come from a poor family. With a single Mom. And a deadbeat dad. I've seen first hand both of our solutions play out in with real lives over 40 years, multiple generations and multiple families. Those that took the easy way initially were happier at first- for a blink of the eye on a lifetime scale. And today, most of them are no better off than they were back then. I call them the lucky ones. Others ran into a frequent bedfellow of poverty, substance abuse (both a cause and an effect of poverty.) Sadly, most of their children followed in their footsteps. The group that didn't make excuses and pulled themselves up? All doing great today. And so are their children. Better than the parents in fact, which is the goal of being a parent. I'm not Elitest or snobby. If I sound harsh, it's because I've been there, done that. While you are well intentioned, you are not helping. You are enabling.

A side note- I used to run fast food restaraunts. I employed a lot of low wage employees. Very, very few tried to support a family like that, and they did not make minimum wage. Much like poverty, minimum wage is a transitional period for most people. It's not the same people- they move on to better jobs once they get experience, or move up where they are working. I reiterate, if you are an adult working a minimum wage job, there is something wrong with you. Fix it, and move on. In my current industry, which pays very well for entry level no or low skill positions- it is very hard to find people willing to work. This in a state with high unemployment.

In reply to The Jeeza:

I am not sure if your questions are rhetorical- maybe you are already on a good path.

I would respond with a couple of things:

• Don't get down on yourself. Sounds like you are doing well, and learning how to make good decisions. Keep it up, and be patient.

• 39 is generally too early to be wealthy. Patience is a hard skill to learn, but becoming financially stable and/or wealthy is often something that takes many years of good decisions to achieve. It doesn't happen overnight.

• You have shared that you work hard, but your cash position is terrible. It is likely this is an indicator of problems on the expense side of your life. That's a fancy way of saying you may be spending too much. You can't fix that by working harder.

• Have you pursued any budget management training? I know the "Dave Ramsey" mantra gets a little tiring, but have you tried it? You are not going to get there no matter how hard you work if you don't also learn how to manage what you have.

I'm not trying to get in your life. We agree about the challenges poor people face, and that it is often what they don't even know they don't know. Hard work is one piece, but learning is another. Income is one side of the equation, but spending is the other.

Balance, patience, and many years of diligence and good decisions will get you there. A good mentor (or accountability partner) can help too.

Good luck!

In reply to The Jeeza:

You've got mail

Boost_Crazy wrote: In reply to wbjones:

not every single Mom is a baby factory because … welfare yo …. many people get married way young, then break up after having kids … many times the Dad becoming a dead beat Dad … leaving Mom to take care of the kids … many times without any family structure behind them … and as often as not, with zero skills … this usually equals min. wage jobs ..assuming they can find some way to take care of the kids AND work .. day care is more expensive than a min. wage job can support … that throws them back into the welfare racket

What state doesn't have child support laws? Why isn't the father providing for his kids? Divorce happens, there are a lot of single mothers. Most care for their kids. Did she have a kid with a man unwilling or unable to support their child? Bad choice. Can only get a minimum wage job? No family support on either side? No ties to where they live (job, family) but still can't leave? I call bullE36 M3 on that one. The truth is, it's easier to play the victim than to fix the problem. And people like you hurt them when you pat them on their head and say "It's not your fault, and there is nothing you can do. I'll take care of you. And by "I" I mean other people. And by "take care," I mean keep you poor and reliant on the government until you die." And don't get me started on deadbeat dads. They are one of the lowest forms of life. They aren't men.

your rant sounds a bit elitist, snobby, and condescending (as do the rest of your rants … i.e. "if you're trying to raise a family on a min. wage job, you're doing something wrong" ) keep in mind that without skills min. wage is often the only thing available … assuming it's available at all … and "just move" … ain't possible in many cases … like I said, very condescending and snobby … sounds to me like you've never been it that type of situation and had responsibilities that "kept" you down … it's a pretty vicious cycle

You have got it backwards. I'm not elitist... I'm the one saying that just about everyone has the ability to avoid or pull themselves out of poverty. They just need to try. And work. And sacrafice. Generations before us sacraficed everything so that we have the opportunities that we have today. Your comments on the other hand, betray you as the elitist. You don't believe that these people have the ability to improve their situation? To make more than minimum wage? Why not? In your opinion, are they not smart enough? Not capable of hard work? Do you pity them? The sad thing is people like you are very convincing. You come off as their savior, when in fact you are their greatest threat. As for me, I've busted my ass my whole life. I come from a poor family. With a single Mom. And a deadbeat dad. I've seen first hand both of our solutions play out in with real lives over 40 years, multiple generations and multiple families. Those that took the easy way initially were happier at first- for a blink of the eye on a lifetime scale. And today, most of them are no better off than they were back then. I call them the lucky ones. Others ran into a frequent bedfellow of poverty, substance abuse (both a cause and an effect of poverty.) Sadly, most of their children followed in their footsteps. The group that didn't make excuses and pulled themselves up? All doing great today. And so are their children. Better than the parents in fact, which is the goal of being a parent. I'm not Elitest or snobby. If I sound harsh, it's because I've been there, done that. While you are well intentioned, you are not helping. You are enabling. A side note- I used to run fast food restaraunts. I employed a lot of low wage employees. Very, very few tried to support a family like that, and they did not make minimum wage. Much like poverty, minimum wage is a transitional period for most people. It's not the same people- they move on to better jobs once they get experience, or move up where they are working. I reiterate, if you are an adult working a minimum wage job, there is something wrong with you. Fix it, and move on. In my current industry, which pays very well for entry level no or low skill positions- it is very hard to find people willing to work. This in a state with high unemployment.

Jason, you may well mean what you're saying … but how you're saying it doesn't come off that way …. there truly are situations where there just aren't the solutions you seem to think anyone can make happen … there are many situations where there just isn't any family help available …

have you checked out what the state provides (hint: it's not all that much) and God forbid if the recipient tries to better themselves while on state support … the support goes away immediately

have you never heard of fathers that just disappear ?

and you've got me wrong if you got from that, that I support them in their misery … no head patting from me… I would like to help, but in a way that has them helping themselves

as for the elitist comment… you sound like you're "preaching" from above … being very condescending about their inability to get a better job … if no money, it's hard to just up and move, it's next to impossible to get training, to be able to get a better job

you're pointing out that they obviously made bad decisions … come on dude … get off you pedestal … not everyone is as well grounded as you must be … call bullE36 M3 all you want … like I said, not everyone is as wonderful as you must be

like I said, maybe you aren't like you sound ….

Hmm...

I think that is the third time someone in this thread has been called "elitist and condescending."

Thread still unlocked...

(I'm kinda glad it hasn't been locked, though I am not sure it serves a useful purpose anymore)

In reply to SVreX:

Well, in some ways it can be hard to have discussions like this without occasionally coming across as "elitist and condescending".

In reply to Ian F:

Yep. Understood (and I realize I have sometimes been perceived as the elitist condescending ass).

That's why I said I was glad it wasn't locked. I think these things have a way of working themselves out, and the lock is used far too frequently.

Same way I feel about political discussion.

In reply to Ian F:

Essentially. Guys like Datsun above fight their way out of it. Others don't. Can't say why some are driven to fight and others aren't. Or why some look at the "American Dream" and just see the road blocks in front of them and why others say "berk-you!" and push past those obstacles.

I think a lot of it boils down to choice. Some see the choice to get out, some see the choice to stay. Unfortunately, a lot of the assistance given also makes the choice to stay easier.

My county has a 6.4% unemployment rate, down from 7.2 a year ago vs a now statewide 5.2%. Was the poorest county in the state at one time but it's risen slightly, still E36 M3 but not just whale E36 M3.

Hired in a local factory three plus years ago. Entry test was equivalent to a 9th grade aptitude test, basic math w/ fractions and decimals, read a rule, basic problem solving etc., i.e common sense. I applied for skilled trades and believe me they were being completely generous w/ that level of a test.

Surprised when told by HR guy how many applicants couldn't pass that test. The other half of the problem he said was finding applicants who could pass the drug test.

Entry level pay is around $14/ hr. for utility, $16+ after one year. Top rate is $23 for production line mechanic. Decent bennies too. Plenty of OT available too at time and a half, not a bad paycheck considering there's nothing else even comparable in the area.

So, if you paid attention in HS and don't do drugs you could clear at least $1100 or more/ week w/ OT after a year or two in the plant.

In reply to wbjones:

I'm saying what needs to be said, in clear unambiguous language. To do otherwise just glosses over the problem. I said that if you are adult working a minimum wage job, there is a serious problem with you. Not finishing high school, choosing to have children with a man who can't or won't support his children, not having any family ties, and not having enough skill or personality to get more than a minimum wage job- that qualifies as "something wrong with you" in my world. They still have the opportunity to fix their life. What you are describing- is a fraction of a fraction of the situations that result in poverty in the real world. Your solution may work in that case. You could also suggest that people don't wear seat belts, because in some cases you will be thrown free. I'll continue wearing my seat belt. And I'll keep recommending personal responsibility and encouraging people to pick themselves up, rather than say they are doomed and not offer a workable solution.

Your attitude towards me is a direct example of your flawed thinking. You attack me for making the right choices in life. I take responsibility for myself and provide for my family. I made personal sacrafices to get where I am. Yet you make me the bad guy for being the good guy. It's increasing theme in today's society. It's easier to blame, put down, and try to discredit those that succeed rather than stepping up and taking responsibility for your own actions. Good luck with that strategy, I don't see it working any time soon.

Maybe 25 years ago my dad gave me a book 'The Millionaire Next Door' which is an excellent review of how and why some people make it and some don't. The gist: there are far too many people who confuse the appearance of wealth with the reality. Some people just never get it; they are so busy trying to 'look' rich that they blow all their available cash and time on it, then wind up with nothing. Thus they stay poor while the companies and people who have figured that out get rich off of them. Trivia: the vast majority of Mercedes sales are to people of lower middle class. No lie.

I picked a bit different path than my dad; he was driven in no small part because he measured success in dollars. He lost out on a lot of life's pleasures because of that; he didn't not have ANY fun but he did spend a lot of time working. Me, I don't let money rule my life. I do my best to strike a balance between making money and having time for my family, friends and hobbies. I could not possibly care less what the neighbors think of what I drive etc and that has helped a lot.

There are a lot of people who are poor because of their circumstances but they don't make the effort to fix that; the problem is they don't hunt options. Example: stuck in (insert crappy town with no future here) and don't know how to move to where things are better? Are you 18 and need to move but are broke? Sign up for 2 years in the military; play your cards right and you can come out not only with a bit of a nest egg but also a different perspective. Sometimes I honestly wish I'd done that; many of my friends did and it really helped them. One guy who stands out in particular was in the Air Force for, IIRC, 8 years and got trained as a pilot. When he got out an airline snapped him right up, sent him to school for two years to train on civilian aircraft, paid him a salary while doing so and bam he was on a good career path which cost him exactly zero $.

There are honestly a lot of people who are poor and don't mind being so. That's fine; who am I to tell them how to lead their lives? In some ways they are better off than those who are always looking to move upwards and onwards, they have a much more leisurely existence. I have known people who fished two or three days a week and worked at a low paying job another few days because that's all they want out of life. That's cool, just don't bitch about being broke.

But being poor, being pissed about it, then skipping over a golden opportunity such as the military for (insert reason here) which amounts to nothing more than 'don't want to put forth the effort'? Uh, don't look to me for sympathy.

In reply to The Jeeza:

It sounds like you are definilty on the right track. As others have said, you may want to explore your spending situation. Often it's not just what you spend, but how you spend it- putting things on credit really hurts your overall buying power.

Are you a one income family? It's very hard to get by on a single income in today's world- we have a lot of expenses that weren't in the picture when single earner families were more common. My wife works, and we are considering her staying home with the kids. It would mean a drastic change to our life style.

Have you worked for your current company for a long time? I've had the problem of being too comfortable and loyal for my own good. It's not often rewarded in today's business world. Check what others in similar jobs are making in other companies, and other areas. Use that to negotiate a raise, or find another place that pays better. My last job I really liked, but I went in with an expectation of where I wanted to be in one year. While I liked the job, I left for another exactly one year later. It was the best move I ever made. I should also note that they made me many offers when I left that I never would have gotten had I stayed. I'm pretty much at that point again with my current job, it isn't easy.

OK, so maybe out of left field here, but I was wondering:

Of all the sovereign nations on the planet, the USA is now the country with the highest percentage of its population locked behind bars.

That freaks me out on two levels:

1-I don't want to go there because it is obviously a country of criminals.

OR....

2- I don't want to go there because the "Man" is out to get me and toss me in jail to satisfy some unspoken agenda.

I mean, what's the deal with the USA? Have speeding and parking tickets become mandatory jail sentences? Does putting people in jail somehow help pay off the national debt? I mean, SOMEONE has to be getting rich off of all these people being in jail or they would not be there right? Kinda like wars, where we would not have those either if people were not getting rich of of making bombs and bullets.

Datsun1500 wrote: In reply to Clarty: I just looked and the average elementary teacher in Rochester MN salary is $46,475 divide by 9 months, it's $5163. That's the same as $62k a year. The median household income for Rochester is $58k. She's above that by herself. So 8 hours a day at school, and 2 more at home Is 10 hours a day. If you did that M-F it's 50 hours a week. 4.3 weeks a month, for 215 hours. That's $24 an hour. That's if you do 2 hours every night, and do not have any days off. It goes up if you have days off. I'm not picking on anyone, or saying that teachers do not work hard, or extra. I'm just saying the "teachers are way underpaid" is not supported by numbers. A quick google for Rochester MN living wage says the living wage for 1 adult is 9.55 an hour. She's making 3 times that.

How many professions that practically require a Master's degree pay $24 an hour?

In reply to NOHOME:

War on drugs, and a E36 M3load of repeat offenders.

Obvious snarky comment: It's not a country of criminals, we threw most of them in jail.

Guys, thank you for the offer for help, and the email. I looked at Ramsey a few years back and adopted some of his tips.

Here are few things.

I have moved to a new job after loosing an old one. Un-emplyment for 4.5 months is a killer. My bills have went up $800 (this includes getting rid of a vehicle) per month while my salary has went down $1000 per month. My costs are #1 Rent #2 Loans from going to college #3 Food #4 credit cards.

The salary will be adjusted as my new job is a Fed Job and I have been given my promotion and raise bonus schedule from now till they change it. I am in the highest paid GS schedule in the Fed and they do lots to keep us. (Before anyone gets on a rant, we are constitutionally mandated and actually turn a profit for the US government. We aren't part of the debt stream, we are part of the income.)

I did the job hopping leveraging my skills and went from $47k to $80k ($88 if you count bonus) in under 7 years. Then it all came apart.

My oldest son is Autistic and my wife has been sick. She is working on writing and doing stuff while the kids are in school because having someone with them is important to us. That is a family priority, we had 'em we raise them. Call this my "refuse to move" point.

Remember my definition of financially secure is to have 1 months salary in the bank. (I am not even worried about the 3 Ramsey preaches right now)

Every person I have ever met that is financially wealthy and didn't inherit it did it before they were 35. There are 6 of them. i ask them how they do what they do. Very few have been able to tell me something I didn't know and being money, no one was comfortable diving in. Not to mention I obviously wasn't asking the right questions.

The point of the entire post is, I know that I was doing wrong and have the intelligence, resources, and drive to overcome most of them.

The statements have been made that someone with drive alone can do what I am doing. That is the point of my story. It is the equivalent to saying that anyone can be Bill Gates, Richard Branson, Einstein if they would just work harder. The short answer is no, they can't. A person with approximately average intelligence, no resources, a history of bad mistakes and no one taking an interest in mentoring them can just pick them up and say, yes I can! Well statistically no, you won't. What's worse it they can't. At least one of those things has to change. Now I will help anyone who asks. I am happy to. But making the assumption that the majority of the poor in this country are that way because all they lack is work ethic, IMHO, has no basis in fact.

Now out of all of this, don't think I am saying the current welfare system works. It doesn't. We need a real jobs program and some life skills training. I don't even believe High School is covering much of this anymore.

NOHOME wrote: OK, so maybe out of left field here, but I was wondering: Of all the sovereign nations on the planet, the USA is now the country with the highest percentage of its population locked behind bars. That freaks me out on two levels: 1-I don't want to go there because it is obviously a country of criminals. OR.... 2- I don't want to go there because the "Man" is out to get me and toss me in jail to satisfy some unspoken agenda. I mean, what's the deal with the USA? Have speeding and parking tickets become mandatory jail sentences? Does putting people in jail somehow help pay off the national debt? I mean, SOMEONE has to be getting rich off of all these people being in jail or they would not be there right? Kinda like wars, where we would not have those either if people were not getting rich of of making bombs and bullets.

It's a combination of the war on drugs and 'three strikes, you are out'. The first I'm not in the mood to argue about right now, the latter was in response to a surge in the crime rate several years ago.

Violent crime rate, nationwide:

Property crime rates are harder to find for the nation, this Utah compared to the US is about the best one I could find:

California's law was passed in 1994. Other states adopted (or not) at around the same time. This study says there MAY be a correlation but quantifying it is difficult; no one is surveying potential criminals asking them 'did the three strikes laws make you decide not to kill or rob someone?'.

http://www.lao.ca.gov/2005/3_strikes/3_strikes_102005.htm

It's possible to holler 'correlation is not causation' or 'three strikes is too tough' but the fact remains that SOMETHING changed at about the time these two crossed. The price is we have more people in the slammer. Is that a perfect solution? Hell, no. There ain't no such animal.

So lemme ask: if you were a legislator faced with the same situation, what would YOU do? Keep letting your constituents get killed and murdered? Let their property get stolen? And yeah I know what a cesspool the US is compared to the oh so civilized parts of the world.

Curmudgeon wrote: It's possible to holler 'correlation is not causation' or 'three strikes is too tough' but the fact remains that SOMETHING changed at about the time these two crossed. The price is we have more people in the slammer. Is that a perfect solution? Hell, no. There ain't no such animal.

The change is from unleaded fuel, note that the rate starts dropping about 18 years after the phaseout of leaded gas began. I have some sources on this if you want me to dig them up.