American attitudes, where are we at today.

Unfortunately, FS' diatribe is indicative of the problems of our country. Straight out of the left's "today's reading material." Don't like the President. See, he already made it personal right there. At least he didn't use the "don't like the President's skin color" as that line is just too overplayed, to the point of being comical. Logan Act. Uh-huh. I'm pretty sure that our Senators, who vote on the treaties, remember, are involved in the process and are in fact, authorized. You want examples of unconstitutional things happening today? Do I really need to start pulling out executive orders?

Here's a sign of the problem (hint, IT'S THE MONEY):

oldsaw wrote:

Flight Service said: I have friends, that are intelligent, responsible people that have political and social views that are as fragmented, contradictory, and hypocritical on almost everything they stand for.

You are aware that your friends are thinking the same of you, right?

Maybe, if they do they never bring it up in the conversations we have had about it.

In reply to Dr. Hess:

Dr. Hess, unless you are a member of US congress, and advisor to or member of the Republican National Committee. That could not have been personal. If it was, wow, sorry, my bad.

They don't like the President, he is a Democrat, particularly one from out of nowhere, a newbie on the scene. That beat an establishment Republican, twice. Don't say I said things I didn't. This is how not nice conversations start. Don't start debasing a question. If you don't like the question, you don't have to participate in the answer.

Sure pull out whatever executive orders you think makes your point on how you feel as a citizen. Obama has written a little over 200. Bush Jr. 291, Clinton 364 (only President to balance budget) Bush Sr. (166) Reagan (380)

Flight Service wrote: In reply to Dr. Hess: Dr. Hess, unless you are a member of US congress, and advisor to or member of the Republican National Committee. That could not have been personal. If it was, wow, sorry, my bad. They don't like the President, he is a Democrat, particularly one from out of nowhere, a newbie on the scene. That beat an establishment Republican, twice. Don't say I said things I didn't. This is how not nice conversations start. Don't start debasing a question. If you don't like the question, you don't have to participate in the answer. Sure pull out whatever executive orders you think makes your point on how you feel as a citizen.

Sorry about that, I am not trying to be curt. Although we both just proved my point from both sides.

You got wrapped around the axle as a GOP member and myself as a Lefty, when neither argument was based on the question.

why as citizens do we have this knee jerk reaction to the other side? Truthfully, unless you are a politician or a paid political adviser, neither party has done anything for you or me, and I have ran for office. Just things that they believe will keep our vote.

Politics disappoint me. I know there's a problem with politicians, but I have no idea what the fix might be.

(edited a much longer post here)

• I think the news has become nothing more than televised tabloids.

• I was once super conservative, then leaned liberal, now I'm not amused by either side's antics.

• I can tell you that in Hungary, it's no better. The benefit an expat might have (or should I say "has"?) there versus here (besides income) is the lack of language understanding necessary to catch what's happening in the news. Ignorance, it turns out, really is "bliss".

There's definitely a big problem with 'infotainment' worldwide. It really screws up the political process. The problem is, in order to pull ratings to make money the news has to be dumbed down. So what we see is really a reflection of the electorate and that's scarier than the politicians who get elected.

"States passing voter restriction law citing election fraud that they have no evidence of."

Could you cite an example? Being asked for I.D. when voting sounds like common sense to me. Do you want non-citizens voting? Do you want to vote in the elections of other countries? Would they want you to vote there?

Showing your citizenship should be a point of pride, not a restriction.

Gearheadotaku wrote: "States passing voter restriction law citing election fraud that they have no evidence of." Could you cite an example? Being asked for I.D. when voting sounds like common sense to me. Do you want non-citizens voting? Do you want to vote in the elections of other countries? Would they want you to vote there? Showing your citizenship should be a point of pride, not a restriction.

For the longest time, showing your voters registration card was enough. You did not need a drivers license or any other form of identification. Now this was a time when not all drivers license had photos. I know as technology marks forward and all that, and I tend to vote with my DL. But that isn't all that has been in these bills and not everyone has a DL. Especially the elderly. Then you look at what they will allow as an allowable ID. gun permits and not state college IDs, you can see it is just another form of gerrymandering.

I have no problem with having to show a photo id, I like the idea, but that isn't the nuances they are listing to cull voting. Also, why can't you, with a valid federal or state identification register to vote the same day? Just seems like road blocks for no reason.

I hope I answered your question

fujioko wrote:

Flight Service wrote: "because they don't like the President"

It is not a matter of like/dislike, it is a matter of agree/disagree with the president.

I believe what is being referred to is a meeting held shortly after Obama's election where it was decided to unilaterally oppose anything he wanted to do.

That's not about agreeing or disagreeing. That's also not responsible in the least. That is deliberate and premeditated obstructionism on a wide scale.

I'm of the opinion that, since each citizen has a Social Security number, one SSN = 1 ballot. Done. Those with DL's can show them to prove residency, voter registration cards the same, those with no pic ID can show a Social Security check (the number's printed on it) because it will have their address on it. They vote in the district the check gets mailed to, bing done. Get their SS via direct deposit? Show a copy of the statement with the address, done.

But this is far too simple and difficult to corrupt so it'll never happen.

Knurled wrote:

fujioko wrote:

Flight Service wrote: "because they don't like the President"

It is not a matter of like/dislike, it is a matter of agree/disagree with the president.

I believe what is being referred to is a meeting held shortly after Obama's election where it was decided to unilaterally oppose anything he wanted to do. That's not about agreeing or disagreeing. That's also not responsible in the least. That is deliberate and premeditated obstructionism on a wide scale.

Mitch McConnell's statement was probably the single-most stupid public political utterance ever made. Republicans should have followed their opposition's example by voting for legislation then lie about being duped with manipulated and fabricated information.

OK, that last sentence was snarky BUT if anyone can't believe that the sentiment hadn't existed after previous elections, those people are political morons. And, yeah, we have a population dominated by them.

The only thing I want to say about politics is that term limits are stupid- and lead to MORE of a problem that we face now- people who are not willing to compromise their position. It becomes more about agenda than running a country. We'd be far better off if we had open primaries, and then a run off in November. Plus, cutting off this constant election period- have ONE primary day for all states. This whole election season that's starting up now is very distracting.

Then the Media- they do a great job of telling you that you should be angry. And willing to fight about it. It's been that way forever, with the result that the less have to fight and die for the more.

But what really kills me (not really- just being ironic), this whole pessimism. Missed through the smoke screen of being angry and afraid are hard working people who are doing a heck of a job building a society in spite of the government. We were all convinced that this bad recession was the worst thing ever- and not to say it wasn't bad- it was bad. But quickly after it hit the bottom, large chunks of markets were coming back. Mine, for one- we bottomed out at ~10M cars/year, and the gloom and doomers were trying to convince us that that's going to be permanent. The reality was that we passed that pretty quickly, and are up to ~16M/year in the US. Other "depressed" areas are having comeback's without the help but anyone other than someone seeing an opportunity. Just spent a weekend in Detroit- which I'm sure most of you think is some kind of hole of rubble north of Windsor. Ignoring the stores, and restaurants, and bars, and all the people coming down to just hang out and live. It's got a LONG way to go- but it's light years from what most people think.

Look around people. People have been predicting "the end" for centuries. None of them have been right.

IMHO, the world is in better shape that it looks, and for sure, our country is in better shape that most of you think.

In reply to Curmudgeon:

SS cards are extremely easy to fake, and VERY common.

There were over 50 employees of the company I just left who all had SS cards, and not a single one of them was a US citizen.

Most of them bought their SS cards at the local flea market. I know several had been employees for over 10 years, had taxes withheld every week, and filed returns every year with fraudulent cards, and were never caught.

SS card is not an adequate form of ID.

In reply to alfadriver:

Not all industries were as fortunate as yours.

Guess I could include this one too:

I guess you could call that media pessimism. I call them my friends and co-workers.

Eric, your industry benefited greatly from government bailouts which enabled consumers to buy more product.

My industry experienced the opposite. Government bailouts of banks coupled with tighter lending restrictions led to banks putting money in their vaults which should have been put back into circulation. Consumers could not buy product, and still can't.

I am not disagreeing about the benefits to the auto industry. But please don't suggest that the detriments to the construction industry were imaginary.

In reply to SVreX: The construction industry is an offshoot of the banking industry- it's more about taking massively long loans out and making money that way. Our loans are MUCH shorter, and have less of an impact from the banking industry in terms of a recovery. Your industry lead the financial problems- making houses that nobody wanted to buy, all spurred on by a banking industry ignoring the basics of economics.

Still, I appreciate you making my point. Instead of seeing that life isn't nearly as bad as it appears, you find reasons why we should be mad and afraid. Which goes a long way in letting the manipulators do what they want.

Flight Service wrote:

Gearheadotaku wrote: "States passing voter restriction law citing election fraud that they have no evidence of." Could you cite an example? Being asked for I.D. when voting sounds like common sense to me. Do you want non-citizens voting? Do you want to vote in the elections of other countries? Would they want you to vote there? Showing your citizenship should be a point of pride, not a restriction.

For the longest time, showing your voters registration card was enough. You did not need a drivers license or any other form of identification. Now this was a time when not all drivers license had photos. I know as technology marks forward and all that, and I tend to vote with my DL. But that isn't all that has been in these bills and not everyone has a DL. Especially the elderly. Then you look at what they will allow as an allowable ID. gun permits and not state college IDs, you can see it is just another form of gerrymandering. I have no problem with having to show a photo id, I like the idea, but that isn't the nuances they are listing to cull voting. Also, why can't you, with a valid federal or state identification register to vote the same day? Just seems like road blocks for no reason. I hope I answered your question

You can get a "state I.D." card from the DMV without getting a "drivers license"

College ID's are issued to students, not all students are citizens. (student visa's etc) Gun permit? that's an odd one, but you would have to have valid ID to get one in the first place. Not sure if you could get one on a visa etc.

I couldn't tell you where my voter reg card is, never been asked for it. I can see the delay in registration, they need to confirm you are who you say and process paperwork to get on the polling list.

Yes any document can be forged, perhaps enforce that law harder?

SVreX wrote: In reply to Curmudgeon: SS cards are extremely easy to fake, and VERY common. There were over 50 employees of the company I just left who all had SS cards, and not a single one of them was a US citizen. Most of them bought their SS cards at the local flea market. I know several had been employees for over 10 years, had taxes withheld every week, and filed returns every year with fraudulent cards, and were never caught. SS card is not an adequate form of ID.

I realize that. It's why my statement was NOT 'one SS card one ballot', it was 'one SS number one ballot'.

Gearheadotaku wrote:

Flight Service wrote:

Gearheadotaku wrote: "States passing voter restriction law citing election fraud that they have no evidence of." Could you cite an example? Being asked for I.D. when voting sounds like common sense to me. Do you want non-citizens voting? Do you want to vote in the elections of other countries? Would they want you to vote there? Showing your citizenship should be a point of pride, not a restriction.

For the longest time, showing your voters registration card was enough. You did not need a drivers license or any other form of identification. Now this was a time when not all drivers license had photos. I know as technology marks forward and all that, and I tend to vote with my DL. But that isn't all that has been in these bills and not everyone has a DL. Especially the elderly. Then you look at what they will allow as an allowable ID. gun permits and not state college IDs, you can see it is just another form of gerrymandering. I have no problem with having to show a photo id, I like the idea, but that isn't the nuances they are listing to cull voting. Also, why can't you, with a valid federal or state identification register to vote the same day? Just seems like road blocks for no reason. I hope I answered your question

You can get a "state I.D." card from the DMV without getting a "drivers license" College ID's are issued to students, not all students are citizens. (student visa's etc) Gun permit? that's an odd one, but you would have to have valid ID to get one in the first place. Not sure if you could get one on a visa etc. I couldn't tell you where my voter reg card is, never been asked for it. I can see the delay in registration, they need to confirm you are who you say and process paperwork to get on the polling list. Yes any document can be forged, perhaps enforce that law harder?

In my area, you must be a US Citizen to have a firearms license....but you can be a legal alien(here on a visa) and legally purchase a firearm.

The difference here is that State issued ID's are accepted, but collegiate institutions are not....even though usually they are funded by the state(but are separate in most states thanks to state constitutions)

The way I see it, voting is a right, just like possessing firearms....So long as I have to have an ID to carry/purchase them, I'll support voter ID.

Curmudgeon wrote: I'm of the opinion that, since each citizen has a Social Security number, one SSN = 1 ballot. Done. Those with DL's can show them to prove residency, voter registration cards the same, those with no pic ID can show a Social Security check (the number's printed on it) because it will have their address on it. They vote in the district the check gets mailed to, bing done. Get their SS via direct deposit? Show a copy of the statement with the address, done. But this is far too simple and difficult to corrupt so it'll never happen.

Nice Solution!

Curmudgeon wrote:

SVreX wrote: In reply to Curmudgeon: SS cards are extremely easy to fake, and VERY common. There were over 50 employees of the company I just left who all had SS cards, and not a single one of them was a US citizen. Most of them bought their SS cards at the local flea market. I know several had been employees for over 10 years, had taxes withheld every week, and filed returns every year with fraudulent cards, and were never caught. SS card is not an adequate form of ID.

I realize that. It's why my statement was NOT 'one SS card one ballot', it was 'one SS number one ballot'.

That sounds like splitting hairs.

The 50+ employees at my previous employer each had their own SS number (though they were not citizens). None of which were rejected when processed by the IRS.

How would you suggest a poll worker define the difference?

With all the wunnerful connectivity of teh int3erw3bt00bz it wouldn't be hard to have SS verify each unique number for a given election. Use it once, then no more for that SSN till the next election in that area. Done.

The IRS does not necessarily cross check with SS about whether a given SSN is valid. That's where a lot of their problems have come from. They have most definitely found that some people have filed fraudulent returns early before the true owner of the SSN files, though so it's not like some of the infrastructure for what I propose isn't already in place.

Also, credit card companies can immediately match card number/expiration/V code. Should be pretty simple to do similar with SSN's.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to SVreX: The construction industry is an offshoot of the banking industry- it's more about taking massively long loans out and making money that way. Our loans are MUCH shorter, and have less of an impact from the banking industry in terms of a recovery.

Agreed.

alfadriver wrote: Your industry lead the financial problems- making houses that nobody wanted to buy, all spurred on by a banking industry ignoring the basics of economics.

Complete and utter bullE36 M3. The construction industry made what people wanted to buy, just as the auto industry did. In fact, the auto industry product inflated at a much higher rate than construction.

In fact, consumers wanted to buy more. Much more. They could not afford more.

The price was driven by bankers, and consumers, not the construction industry.

alfadriver wrote: Still, I appreciate you making my point. Instead of seeing that life isn't nearly as bad as it appears, you find reasons why we should be mad and afraid. Which goes a long way in letting the manipulators do what they want.

More BS. I see no reason for people to be mad or afraid, and I am certainly not.

I am simply recognizing reality, and adjusting as needed.

Auto industry got bailed out. Construction industry is completely on its own, and has suffered a downturn somewhere around 50%, which was completely beyond their control.

Eric, I am happy for you. You got a sweet deal. But you are part of an elite group, and completely blind to the reality that many people are facing.

You are also part of an industry which is thoroughly led by unionization- one of the last. The auto bailout was a deeply politically motivated vote grab. Keep jobs for Dems, but screw the industries that are predominantly Repub.

Regarding the thread subject, your post makes my point precisely. Divisiveness is a tool, chaos is the goal. Thanks for being such a patriotic devoted party loyalist, alfa.

Curmudgeon wrote: With all the wunnerful connectivity of teh int3erw3bt00bz it wouldn't be hard to have SS verify each unique number for a given election. Use it once, then no more for that SSN till the next election in that area. Done. The IRS does not necessarily cross check with SS about whether a given SSN is valid. That's where a lot of their problems have come from. They have most definitely found that some people have filed fraudulent returns early before the true owner of the SSN files, though so it's not like some of the infrastructure for what I propose isn't already in place. Also, credit card companies can immediately match card number/expiration/V code. Should be pretty simple to do similar with SSN's.

You are partly correct. IRS doesn't check validity of SS numbers.

Bu they DO check already for duplication, and it isn't happening.

You are assuming the SS numbers are being reused. They are not.

They are only used once in tax filing. They are fraudulent, but they are still unique.

Therefore, I don't think your plan would work. Duplicates would not show up at the polls.

Actually, I KNOW your plan wouldn't work. If some folks object to the requirement of ID's at the polls, just imagine the uproar if SS numbers were linked to voting (it's illegal to use SS numbers for identification purposes).

Gun permits are issued by the state.

School ID's are issued by schools.

That's why one is OK, and the other is not.