American shakedown: Police won't charge you, but they'll grab your money

mad_machine wrote: I never understood the whole "war on" thing. We are bad at war.. last war we won was WW2.. we lost the Korean and Vietnam Conflicts, The politicians did a real bad job of managing Iraq and Afghanistan (not going to go into why we were there) and we certainly lost the war on drugs and terrorists.. so why do we keep calling things "a war"?

First off, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Iraq2, and Afganistan were all wars, not conflicts or police actions. The war on drugs was stupid as if there is a buyer, there will always be a supplier. Terrorism, that was an evolution of the thinking behind the war on drugs. Its even worse, because how can you declare a war on an ideology and expect to win....

Im pretty sure a local appliance store recently declared war on high prices.

yamaha wrote:

mad_machine wrote: I never understood the whole "war on" thing. We are bad at war.. last war we won was WW2.. we lost the Korean and Vietnam Conflicts, The politicians did a real bad job of managing Iraq and Afghanistan (not going to go into why we were there) and we certainly lost the war on drugs and terrorists.. so why do we keep calling things "a war"?

First off, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Iraq2, and Afganistan were all wars, not conflicts or police actions. The war on drugs was stupid as if there is a buyer, there will always be a supplier. Terrorism, that was an evolution of the thinking behind the war on drugs. Its even worse, because how can you declare a war on an ideology and expect to win....

while I agree with you … it's not a war if congress doesn't say it is

logdog wrote: Im pretty sure a local appliance store recently declared war on high prices.

"Prices so low we could be tried for war crimes!!!"

"An appliance holocost! Everything must go!"

yamaha wrote: as if there is a buyer, there will always be a supplier

Now officially stuck in my head for the afternoon...

If there's a new way
I'll be the first in line,
But, it better work this time.

Can you put a price on peace?
Peace,
Peace sells...,
Peace,
Peace sells...,
Peace sells...,but who's buying?
Peace sells...,but who's buying?
Peace sells...,but who's buying?
Peace sells...,but who's buying?

wbjones wrote: while I agree with you … it's not a war if congress doesn't say it is

Nu-uhh... The President can do anything he wants. He said so. And Lurch said "mumble mumble mumble... could be... war... mumble mumble mumble..." Welcome to the Post Constitutional Era.

Dr. Hess wrote:

wbjones wrote: while I agree with you … it's not a war if congress doesn't say it is

Nu-uhh... The President can do anything he wants. He said so. And Lurch said "mumble mumble mumble... could be... war... mumble mumble mumble..." Welcome to the Post Constitutional Era.

Sadly we're about 13 years into that Era.

In reply to wbjones:

While that is partly true, the savageness make them nothing other than a war. If Iraq, Iraq2, and afganistan are any indicator, we are getting better at this whole war nonsense. Korea and Vietnam were bloodbaths.

So it looks like the IRS is using the same law to seize cash from ordinary people: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/law-lets-irs-seize-accounts-on-suspicion-no-crime-required/

As if the IRS doesn't take a big enough slice as it is!

I have no love for buzzfeed, but holy crap this is blowing up today. Check it out before the youtube videos get shut down: http://www.buzzfeed.com/nicks29/aif-in-doubtatake-ita-behind-closed-doors-4y3w

Synopsis at the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/10/us/police-use-department-wish-list-when-deciding-which-assets-to-seize.html

More out of control government, they forget that they are servants of the public, not our masters.

Wally Kowalski, an engineer living in a farmhouse in rural southwest Michigan, came home one day last September to find his property swarming with cops. They told him that they had spotted his marijuana plants from a helicopter. Kowalski has a license to grow and distribute medical pot to several low-income people who depend on the drug. He grows the plants in a garden area enclosed by a barbed wire fence.

See the rest here

http://reason.com/blog/2014/12/03/cops-seize-mich-mans-property-freeze-ban

That is the sort of thing that leads a man to feel like he has to do something outside the law because he has no recourse within it. The most dangerous thing in the world is a man with nothing to lose. This is one of those epic governmental "forest for the trees" things that always ends badly.

Annnnnnd this is back again.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/28/the-feds-have-resumed-a-controversial-program-that-lets-cops-take-stuff-and-keep-it/

"In 2014, for instance, federal authorities seized more than $5 billion in assets. That's more than the value of assets lost in every single burglary that year." That $5,000,000,000.00 figure doesn't include all the additional assets seized by state and local authorities.

In reply to nderwater:

Hey, i (involuntarily)donated 10 grand to that cause back in 2013, while waiting on a tow truck in northern california.

Protect and serve? Pillage and steal may be more like it.

I can't even imagine what the state and local departments would add to that number.

Intimidate and control...

The really frustrating thing is that this would be so easy to fix... just acknowledge that the constitution and due process exist and run these forfeitures through the courts with actual evidence of a crime being committed being an obvious prerequisite.

People who get their money stolen by police are probably just happy to make it through the encounter alive the way things are going...

People who talk about knowing their rights need to face some reality. Challenging an officer on anything is in many cases not going to convince him to back down. If they request to search you or your car, I strongly suspect they will discover "probable cause" as soon as you refuse it. Enjoy your jail cell if you live. Has anyone ever successfully refused a search. I've heard of people winding up dead that way, but never heard an anecdote of an officer letting someone go without escalating things.

So, what can we DO about it? I'm asking from a serious point.

1) Post it to social media and have it reposted multiple times? Who cares? Doesn't do anything and politicians ignore that stuff, anyway.
2) Write my local politician? So I can get a form letter back letting me know that they "care", but that I don't understand all the points and so they'll make a better decision for me? Or get NO response because I didn't/don't contribute to their campaign?
3) Vote against them in the next election? Or, more likely, WRITE in a candidate because most run unopposed? Coloring a drop of water red in the ocean won't make it the red sea..... Sure, it's easy to argue that we're in this because people don't vote, but knowing that I could vote for "the opposition" in every election until the day I die won't do a damn thing, it makes one question the point.....
4) Run for office myself to change it? I don't have the funds to quit my job and do that.
5) Camp out in front of the offices to get change incorporated? So I can be arrested as a nut job, lose my job and be out on the street?
6) Carry around huge sums of cash myself, looking to get it confiscated so I can TRY to get a ruling and try to run it up to the Supreme Court? Again, I don't have the funds to quit my job and chase it.

Sadly, because I feel like there's really nothing that can be done, I get to the point of not wanting to even read the articles anymore because it's depressing. While it's easy to poke fun at those watching TMZ and call them stupid, I consider myself fairly well educated and it depresses the hell out of me. I can understand why people don't pay attention.....

-Rob (fully expecting to get flamed/insulted)

As the quote goes - "I've never seen a situation where a police officer couldn't make it worse."

Whatever happened to GPS anyway?

Toyman01 wrote: Protect and serve? Pillage and steal may be more like it. I can't even imagine what the state and local departments would add to that number.

A friend of mine on a local PD had "To Punish & Enslave" on his cruiser for awhile before someone got pissy about it.....it was an awesome shoutout to Transformers. LoL

WilD wrote: Has anyone ever successfully refused a search. I've heard of people winding up dead that way, but never heard an anecdote of an officer letting someone go without escalating things.

Yes, several times. Timing is important, as is conduct.

While being picked up for a breaking and entering there is no refusing a search.

On a routine traffic stop there is. Doesn't mean you aren't under arrest, doesn't mean the officer can't request a warrant. But without probable cause, you've every right to refuse, and the officer will have a harder time getting the warrant.

In reply to rob_lewis:

I honestly feel you/we can do nothing.

Fortunately for the government, the large majority of the population doesn't seem to notice or care, or they are happy being controlled by the government.

oldtin wrote: Whatever happened to GPS anyway?

GPS is still around, as Huckleberry. He's out of the racing business and riding motorcycles more.

WOW Really Paul? wrote: A friend of mine on a local PD had "To Punish & Enslave" on his cruiser for awhile before someone got pissy about it.....it was an awesome shoutout to Transformers. LoL

Uh yeah, that's hilarious?? The guy has a badge and a gun. What is with "pissy" people? Sounds like he's a true professional.

Sadly, Canada tends to catch whatever disease the USA gets, just a bit latter.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/civil-forfeiture-often-a-provincial-cash-grab-new-report-finds/article29072771/

It would be interesting if some group were to sponsor a billboard right at the border crossing that warned of the predatory police action.

foxtrapper wrote:

WilD wrote: Has anyone ever successfully refused a search. I've heard of people winding up dead that way, but never heard an anecdote of an officer letting someone go without escalating things.

Yes, several times. Timing is important, as is conduct. While being picked up for a breaking and entering there is no refusing a search. On a routine traffic stop there is. Doesn't mean you aren't under arrest, doesn't mean the officer can't request a warrant. But without probable cause, you've every right to refuse, and the officer will have a harder time getting the warrant.

better check state and local laws on that one. In PA and CA at least, having an active drivers license gives them implied consent regardless of what you say. Refusal to allow search is treated the same as refusal as a breathalyzer, loose your license for a year, and enter the wacky world of legal fines. Hope you're straight, white, married, and middle aged, because without that combo, it gets expensive QUICK.