American shakedown: Police won't charge you, but they'll grab your money

Let me tell you guys why I like it here; this place is populated by what seems to be by a group of mostly intelligent, well rounded, open-minded individuals who put a lot of thought into their views, and opposing views are welcomed and discussed cordially. That's why I am happy to see this line of discussion and see where you guys stand.

For years I have been troubled by the government overreaching and liberty eroding before our eyes. I had started to wonder if I was actually a paranoid kook for not happily waving my flag and falling in line. Knowing that you guys feel the same way is comforting, I am not alone.

Its not too late, look around. So many people want a real change. We aren't outnumbered. We aren't crazy.

When N. Korea tested nukes a while back I heard a quote from a Korean citizen that said "If it weren't for our strong nuclear defense we would all be slaves to the Americans."

I thought about how this poor person has been fed all this misinformation their entire life until they fully believe these things........Then I thought about the war on drugs, and the war on terror,and what I've seen with my own eyes compared to what I've been told to be afraid of. Are we really that different? If they keep the populace scared then the people won't question why they actually need them.

revrico wrote:

foxtrapper wrote:

WilD wrote: Has anyone ever successfully refused a search. I've heard of people winding up dead that way, but never heard an anecdote of an officer letting someone go without escalating things.

Yes, several times. Timing is important, as is conduct. While being picked up for a breaking and entering there is no refusing a search. On a routine traffic stop there is. Doesn't mean you aren't under arrest, doesn't mean the officer can't request a warrant. But without probable cause, you've every right to refuse, and the officer will have a harder time getting the warrant.

better check state and local laws on that one. In PA and CA at least, having an active drivers license gives them implied consent regardless of what you say. Refusal to allow search is treated the same as refusal as a breathalyzer, loose your license for a year, and enter the wacky world of legal fines. Hope you're straight, white, married, and middle aged, because without that combo, it gets expensive QUICK.

I did in Louisiana once. I was driving from California to Florida and got pulled over for following an 18 wheeler too close. I had let the 18 wheeler merge onto my lane.

A trooper followed me for about 10 miles and finally pulled me over. I spent the worst 4 hours of my life on the side of the road. Me and my wife got split up and questioned. I had nothing to hide, but I did not want them to search my car. After a few hours they brought the K9 unit and told me that if the dog found anything they were going to tow my car and take it all apart.

The dogs were never brought out of the truck and I was let go. 1 mile later another cop pulls me over and has me step out of the car. I could still see the other cops on the side of the road. This was about 3 am now. I am driving a 2006 Honda S2000. The guy stopped me and wrote me a ticket for the license plate frame. I offered to remove it and hand it over, he declined. I took the ticket made it to the Mississippi border and stopped at a hotel and swore to never set foot in that state again. I was supposed to be in Florida already by then.

What a berkeleyed up time I had.

revrico wrote: In reply to nderwater: Hey, i (involuntarily)donated 10 grand to that cause back in 2013, while waiting on a tow truck in northern california.

Curious to hear about that ... you never got it back? What happened?

The only way it will change is when they pull over the wrong guy.... that is, someone with enough money / power to take it up the line.

I did my small part. I once reported a cop for running a stop sign. He wasn't even wearing a full uniform (apparently a requirement to be in a cruiser). I considered it a gateway crime and told the IA guy the police should be an example to the populace, not a rolling exception.

Adrift wrote:

WOW Really Paul? wrote: A friend of mine on a local PD had "To Punish & Enslave" on his cruiser for awhile before someone got pissy about it.....it was an awesome shoutout to Transformers. LoL

Uh yeah, that's hilarious?? The guy has a badge and a gun. What is with "pissy" people? Sounds like he's a true professional.

You would have to know the guy to understand before passing judgement over others.....you know the rare type of cop that actually cares about the people he serves and puts them first and foremost before revenue generating.

revrico wrote: better check state and local laws on that one. In PA and CA at least, having an active drivers license gives them implied consent regardless of what you say. Refusal to allow search is treated the same as refusal as a breathalyzer, loose your license for a year, and enter the wacky world of legal fines. Hope you're straight, white, married, and middle aged, because without that combo, it gets expensive QUICK.

I'd suggest you actually go back and read the laws, as well the governing legal cases that have set precedent on this matter.

Just using PA (which uses common implied consent law language), the implied consent of Section 1547 is "...any person who drives...deemed to have given consent to one or more chemical tests..." I.e., checking for drunkiness.

This is how the various states legally get away with the various drunk driver spot checks, where you have to prove you are not drunk.

It is not, and has never been, an implied consent to search your vehicle or your person. That is beyond the scope of the written law, and has been repeatedly determined by the courts to be a violation of the Constitutional protection of unreasonable search and seizure.

Do not mistake that as overriding reasonable suspicion.

If the officer pulls over a person for speeding, they do not have reasonable cause to perform a search without consent.

However, if that officer observes a joint in the ashtray and smells dope smoke, they now do have probably cause and can legally conduct a search without consent.

Yes, the latter is often abused. Good luck at a win on that one.

In reply to Slippery:

My post contained more than a little bit of hyperbole, but Slippery's example is about what I would expect to have happen. Would simple refusal of a search hold up in court as probable cause? Maybe not, but this is still a gateway to a bad day. Of course if a cop is asking to search your car, it's probably not going to be a great day no matter what you do...

Weren't the US' laws finally changed to end this recently, like within the last 6 months or so?

In reply to GameboyRMH:

No, which is why this topic came back up.

dculberson wrote:

Dr. Hess wrote:

wbjones wrote: while I agree with you … it's not a war if congress doesn't say it is

Nu-uhh... The President can do anything he wants. He said so. And Lurch said "mumble mumble mumble... could be... war... mumble mumble mumble..." Welcome to the Post Constitutional Era.

Sadly we're about 13 years into that Era.

So, about 100 years into that era:

http://www.theodoreroosevelt.org/site/pp.aspx?c=elKSIdOWIiJ8H&b=8344377

Recall that Roosevelt sent the White Navy around the world, congress had not paid for it. Apparently he ahd enough money to send them, but it forced congress to appropriate enough money to get them back.

Lori Bogle said: Roosevelt taunted his opponents in a public speech. He had enough money to get the battleships to the Pacific, he argued. It wo

http://dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA521215

Now, while I completely agree with Roosevelt, that is, at that time sending the navy like that was probably a good plan, but it certainly didn't follow the checks and balances built into the US government.

rob_lewis wrote: So, what can we DO about it? I'm asking from a serious point. 1) Post it to social media and have it reposted multiple times? Who cares? Doesn't do anything and politicians ignore that stuff, anyway. 2) Write my local politician? So I can get a form letter back letting me know that they "care", but that I don't understand all the points and so they'll make a better decision for me? Or get NO response because I didn't/don't contribute to their campaign? 3) Vote against them in the next election? Or, more likely, WRITE in a candidate because most run unopposed? Coloring a drop of water red in the ocean won't make it the red sea..... Sure, it's easy to argue that we're in this because people don't vote, but knowing that I could vote for "the opposition" in every election until the day I die won't do a damn thing, it makes one question the point..... 4) Run for office myself to change it? I don't have the funds to quit my job and do that. 5) Camp out in front of the offices to get change incorporated? So I can be arrested as a nut job, lose my job and be out on the street? 6) Carry around huge sums of cash myself, looking to get it confiscated so I can TRY to get a ruling and try to run it up to the Supreme Court? Again, I don't have the funds to quit my job and chase it. Sadly, because I feel like there's really nothing that can be done, I get to the point of not wanting to even read the articles anymore because it's depressing. While it's easy to poke fun at those watching TMZ and call them stupid, I consider myself fairly well educated and it depresses the hell out of me. I can understand why people don't pay attention..... -Rob (fully expecting to get flamed/insulted)

No flaming, I agree wholeheartedly. From no-knock raids, to people getting evicted off of land they own and pay taxes on because their dwelling no longer meets codes, to really questionable uses of force, it's really no wonder some of these riots happen, even though most of the time the exact instance causing the riots seems pretty cut-and-clear. I think the build-up is sometimes warranted. Like the pun?

dculberson wrote:

revrico wrote: In reply to nderwater: Hey, i (involuntarily)donated 10 grand to that cause back in 2013, while waiting on a tow truck in northern california.

Curious to hear about that ... you never got it back? What happened?

I was in the corridor, 101 south from Humboldt to Novato, which is bad enough, because of all the pot that gets moved through there. But it was mid July, well before harvest time, and well before the feds do their stop and search every single car routine.

Anyway, driving down 101, heading specifically to Walnut Creek to buy silver, and my transmission decided that at 75mph, it wanted to explode all over the highway. So I pulled off, called AAA and waited. 20 minutes go by and a CHP car with two officers pulled up. "How are you, what happened, why are you stopped here, where you going where you coming from" typical things. Tell them I'm on my way to the fishing superstore a few exits past Santa Rosa and my tranny took a E36 M3, so I'm waiting for triple a. Apparently that was a trigger to them. Ask to search my vehicle. "Why?" At that point, officer dickbag puts me on the ground and draws on me, while his partner officer sticky fingers starts searching the truck.

I'm not stupid, I'd heard hundreds of horror stories about this long before I moved to Cali, and many many more once I was there. My money was vacuum sealed in where the Jack goes, on a 99 Tahoe, that looks just like a regular interior body panel. They found a rolling paper in the ash tray, not a joint, not a roach, just a crumpled paper and started acting like I was el Chapo himself. At this point, I expected to die on the side of the high way.

finding the paper intensified sticky fingers search, and lead to him finding my money. "What's this?" My money "I think this is drug money, officer dickbag, do you agree? You have any proof of where this money came from, why do you have it, why is it hidden" I told you, I'm going to the fishing store, this is a down payment on a boat. "Well I think this is drug money, so we're going to have to take this into evidence" at this point, I started to stand up and heard the very familiar sound of a hammer being cocked, so I stayed on the ground.

Sticky fingers finished searching the Tahoe(finding nothing else), then picks me up and slams me against it, starts making demands. "Who do you work for, where's the weed, why would anyone have money etcetc" berkeley yourself I want a lawyer you're stealing from me may not have been the most appropriate response at this time, but it's what came out.

They both laughed, and said if I wanted my money back, I would need to get a lawyer and proof of how I earned the money ( I looked into this before it happened, average cost is 35k in legal fees and over a year to maybe get the money back).OR admit to being a drug dealer, be charged with conspiracy and a bunch of other bullE36 M3, and fight a court case. More obscenities went back and forth, then once sticky fingers secured the money in their vehicle, officer dick bag finally put the gun down and headed back to the car. They said thanks, I said "I hope you get inoperable genital cancer" and they left. Not two minutes after they leave, the flat bed showed up. If they aren't working together, it was one Hell of a coincidence.

No ticket, threats of charges but no charges, and when my lawyer did call, the dash cam was inoperable in the car, no video evidence. And no record of anything being checked in on the day in question.

I always thought this was caused by racism and profiling. Never expected as a big white boy I'd have problems like this, because being a big white boy usually keeps me out of these situations. I look more biker than hippy, and being a big hells angels area, that probably was what hurt me looking back on it

Once the truck was fixed, I purchased a proper bullet proof vest. I've not needed to use it, but now I won't even go look at a car worth more than a grand without it.

Foxtrapper: illegal searches are fun. That's what makes them illegal, I know my local (pa)state and jurisdictional cops have used reasons such as your stereo is to loud or you didn't look like you were wearing a seat belt to search vehicles.They refer to implied consent of having a license and usually some garbage about a public roadway makes it public property. The problems come fighting the search in court, it puts a huge target on every vehicle you own.

A friend of a friend named Old Mike(cause he's in his 50s and we aren't) ran into much bigger problems in Nevada. Served 30 days and lost 30 pounds in the process because Nevada highway patrol thought the bug killer he had was pcp. Avid is a grey area bug killer for fighting spider mites on pot plants. Being grey area, it isn't sold in fancy labeled containers, the grow stores put it in a baby food jar or mason jar. It's not illegal, but not entirely legal either, some regulatory crap. Well, Nevada hp found it, and really dragged their feet with testing it because they can never be wrong. He eventually got the charges dropped but they had sold his vehicle before he was released, effectively stranding him in Reno until his wife was able to get out and get him. We all told him to sue, even offered to pitch in for a lawyer, but he didn't want to have to go back to Nevada, well, ever.

gearheadmb wrote: Let me tell you guys why I like it here; this place is populated by what seems to be by a group of mostly intelligent, well rounded, open-minded individuals who put a lot of thought into their views, and opposing views are welcomed and discussed cordially. That's why I am happy to see this line of discussion and see where you guys stand. For years I have been troubled by the government overreaching and liberty eroding before our eyes. I had started to wonder if I was actually a paranoid kook for not happily waving my flag and falling in line. Knowing that you guys feel the same way is comforting, I am not alone. Its not too late, look around. So many people want a real change. We aren't outnumbered. We aren't crazy. When N. Korea tested nukes a while back I heard a quote from a Korean citizen that said "If it weren't for our strong nuclear defense we would all be slaves to the Americans." I thought about how this poor person has been fed all this misinformation their entire life until they fully believe these things........Then I thought about the war on drugs, and the war on terror,and what I've seen with my own eyes compared to what I've been told to be afraid of. Are we really that different? If they keep the populace scared then the people won't question why they actually need them.

We're neuetered from change though. Sure, we can go check a mark and put it in a ballet box, but that's as far as our participation goes. The electoral districts can be rearranged every ten years, only by the people already in office. This allows for some fantasticaly fun shaped voting districts, and also ensures that any election that occur in that time stay with the party that drew the lines. It's called gerrymandering and the US and France are the only places it still exists.

That's just for local. For our big time presidential election, 24 of the states electoral colleges are allowed to put whoevers name they want on their ballot, regardless of what we as citizens have voted for. These 24 states also hold the lions share of electoral college votes. We were never meant to have a say in how we were run, thats why it took 70 years from the beginning of this democracy before even all the white males had a vote. In the beginning it was only white male property owners, a whopping 6% of the population. The general public cannot be trusted to run themselves, because they could and would go against whats best for the rule makers.

I recommend this for a read. Put on public, openly available, mainstream media, with actual sources minimal conjecture. Sitting down and reading the laws regarding citizen checks and balances as well as voting will bore you into a coma, but this TV show actually did a good job of putting things on display, in a way that most people would blow off because "it's just a tv show"

Congressional district PA-7 in red, a fine example of gerrymandering at work.

OK, i'm done derailing this thread

revrico wrote: Foxtrapper: illegal searches are fun. That's what makes them illegal

Not arguing, I've had plenty of fun with badged thugs myself.

But, it's worth knowing the law and your legal rights so you at least know what you're throwing away when you give consent for a search or misunderstanding what implied consent means.

In reply to revrico:

Not a derail, thanks for weighing in. I guess I'm pretty disappointed in our people right now. Everyone talks about freedom. The politicians mention it the same way a rockstar says the name of a city that they are playing that night. It means nothing to them, but it seems to make the crowd cheer. Citizens say they want it and think they have it, but when we have candidates that actually believe in the cause of liberty they can't get more than one or two percent of the vote. Apparently trying to get us all a little but of personal freedom isn't as important as promises to build a wall to keep out brown people, or to carpet bomb other brown people. Because Lord knows flattening cities and killing a bunch of women and children won't create more terrorists, that should totally fix the problem.

But back to the police issues, there is too many dumb people. Dumb people see people as good guys and bad guys. To them the police are good guys. Good guys do good stuff. If you don't follow along you're a bad guy. You do bad stuff. If you get your money taken or shot dead on the side of the road by the cops you had it coming.

Think about the guy that the police choked to death, on video, for selling cigarettes. How many people defended that by saying "He should have obeyed the law." There is no law so petty the police won't kill you for breaking it, and people will cheer for them doing it.

In reply to gearheadmb:

That really is why I'm cheering an asteroid strike, even having a young child at home. Too many people are far more concerned with what the Kardashians are doing that what is being done to them, until it happens to them, and then it's just too late. I have a long standing belief that if you need to be told, and reminded over and over again, that you are free, you're the farthest thing from it.

gearheadmb wrote: In reply to revrico: Not a derail, thanks for weighing in. I guess I'm pretty disappointed in our people right now. Everyone talks about freedom. The politicians mention it the same way a rockstar says the name of a city that they are playing that night. It means nothing to them, but it seems to make the crowd cheer. Citizens say they want it and think they have it, but when we have candidates that actually believe in the cause of liberty they can't get more than one or two percent of the vote. Apparently trying to get us all a little but of personal freedom isn't as important as promises to build a wall to keep out brown people, or to carpet bomb other brown people. Because Lord knows flattening cities and killing a bunch of women and children won't create more terrorists, that should totally fix the problem. But back to the police issues, there is too many dumb people. Dumb people see people as good guys and bad guys. To them the police are good guys. Good guys do good stuff. If you don't follow along you're a bad guy. You do bad stuff. If you get your money taken or shot dead on the side of the road by the cops you had it coming. Think about the guy that the police choked to death, on video, for selling cigarettes. How many people defended that by saying "He should have obeyed the law." There is no law so petty the police won't kill you for breaking it, and people will cheer for them doing it.

Agreed.

I can't understand, or perhaps I don't want to believe the logical reasons for, rioting over a dude who obviously was actively trying to hurt a cop, while fairly obvious abuses of power are overlooked.

The rioters and I share a lot in common, but because they have aligned themselves with a textbook case of reasonable police defense, and chosen to act out in a way that is detrimental to literally everyone, we end up diametrically opposed.

In reply to revrico:

I am nearly shaking with anger after reading this. Ugh.

And I have to teach my four young kids to trust the police. How do I do this?

Had one time that could have ended badly like that but got out of it as my brother was an EMT and I was driving his car. Shows how you're treated differently if you're an "insider". This was up in northern VA.

I was DD on Halloween for my brother and a buddy. Stopped to picked up buddy and him and my brother had a couple drinks before going out. Brother brings can of coca cola with him, no alcohol in it. I ask buddy what speed limit is as we're like 1 mile out. See blue lights right as he replies "crap it's like 35 here" as I was doing ~45-50 on a divided 2 lane road. Was going across maybe a 1/4 mile long bridge when this happens so drive to other end and pull off into a parking lot.

Cop - "Sir why didn't you pull over right away?"

Me - "wanted to get to a safe place and not the shoulder of a narrow bridge"

Cop - "is that a beer? mind if I search the car?" - pointing to coke can

Buddy in passenger seat - "you know you don't have to let him do that!"

Cop - "please step out of the car, do you have any guns, knives, C4, or other weapons in the vehicle?" (apparently the C4 is to get you to giggle and used as cause to assume intoxication).

Takes us out one by one, pats us down, and has us lay beside the car as another cop with k9 pulls up. They open trunk and immediately see like all of my brothers EMT gear and volunteer firefighter stuff strewn about. Cop calls me over and waves off K9 girl who hadn't gotten the dog out yet.

Cop - "so what company you run with?"

Me - "Oh ___ down in ****"

Cop - "nice, you guys have a good night"

Now I do have a pretty solid liking for cops, know a few and related to a couple. Haven't really had any other bad experiences with them but just know it can happen.

tuna55 said: And I have to teach my four young kids to trust the police. How do I do this?

I am not a parent, but my first reaction to this question is: Don't!

Edit: For full disclosure, I read an article yesterday about police shooting a man to death in AZ... while he was lying on his belly, crying, and begging not to be shot. Still angry.

tuna55 wrote: And I have to teach my four young kids to trust the police. How do I do this?

I can only tell you my own experience.

When my boy was little, I went right along with the school on teaching him cops are good, and if he's in trouble and sees one he should ask for help. Cop = "good guy". Same teachers, someone in uniform, etc. And for a little kit, this is just fine.

As he's gotten older and reads the news, his eyes slowly opened and he started to learn about bad cops.

This transitioned smoothly to understanding that not all people, including cops, are good. It also has partially transitioned into his understanding that how he conducts himself will greatly affect the outcome of an encounter. I say partially here because he's still a kid and his thinking is still immature and highly hormone charged.

But, fundamentally, the basic advice of if you're in trouble and see a cop, you should ask them for help still stands. As well caveat emptor.

tuna55 wrote: And I have to teach my four young kids to trust the police. How do I do this?

I have a couple young kids, seven and four. I've told them If they are in trouble they can ask the police for help, and I believe that. I don't think that police are all bad people, or I that they pose a risk to my kids if they got lost or something. They are too young to understand the complexity of it. When they are older I hope to help them understand and can see that it's not as simple as black and white. Or maybe we can steer things in the right direction now and ten years from now it won't be as much of an issue.

tuna55 wrote: In reply to revrico: I am nearly shaking with anger after reading this. Ugh. And I have to teach my four young kids to trust the police. How do I do this?

I've typed and deleted like 10 different responses and what it comes down to is I don't know. I'm considering raising my daughter to fear the police like I do. As difficult as it would be to maintain control as she grew, it may be beneficial for me to teach her to always question authority. I'm planning on homeschooling, so I can help to provide an actual education to her instead of the drivel I see in the public schools now, and I think with that combination, she'll learn as she grows. Not everyone should be trusted, and always expect the worst. It's not the best outlook on life, but when good things result it's better than anything you could hope for.

"If you're in trouble, get a cop. If a cop randomly shows up, then you're in trouble" just came to mind.

revrico wrote:

tuna55 wrote: In reply to revrico: I am nearly shaking with anger after reading this. Ugh. And I have to teach my four young kids to trust the police. How do I do this?

I've typed and deleted like 10 different responses and what it comes down to is I don't know. I'm considering raising my daughter to fear the police like I do. As difficult as it would be to maintain control as she grew, it may be beneficial for me to teach her to always question authority. I'm planning on homeschooling, so I can help to provide an actual education to her instead of the drivel I see in the public schools now, and I think with that combination, she'll learn as she grows. Not everyone should be trusted, and always expect the worst. It's not the best outlook on life, but when good things result it's better than anything you could hope for. "If you're in trouble, get a cop. If a cop randomly shows up, then you're in trouble" just came to mind.

We homeschool our four.

Through co-op they meet firemen and policemen, but I think the best thing to do is to teach that sin lies everywhere. We need to trust these people, but also to understand that everyone is capable of evil and to be somewhat guarded regardless of who it is or what uniform they wear.

That's just a really hard thing to fine tune.

This entire topic depresses, frightens, and angers me all at the same time. Ugh.