An interesting article about how we talk about the healthcare debate.

Something Wicked This Way Comes

A small excerpt.. said: In 1973, two social scientists, Horst Rittel and Melvin Webber, defined a class of problems they called “wicked problems.” Wicked problems are messy, ill-defined, more complex than we fully grasp, and open to multiple interpretations based on one’s point of view. They are problems such as poverty, obesity, where to put a new highway—or how to make sure that people have adequate health care. They are the opposite of “tame problems,” which can be crisply defined, completely understood, and fixed through technical solutions. Tame problems are not necessarily simple—they include putting a man on the moon or devising a cure for diabetes. They are, however, solvable. Solutions to tame problems either work or they don’t. Solutions to wicked problems, by contrast, are only better or worse. Trade-offs are unavoidable. Unanticipated complications and benefits are both common. And opportunities to learn by trial and error are limited. You can’t try a new highway over here and over there; you put it where you put it. But new issues will arise. Adjustments will be required. No solution to a wicked problem is ever permanent or wholly satisfying, which leaves every solution open to easy polemical attack.

Very true, but I'm not sure exactly what could be considered a tame problem, particularly their example of the moon landing. I think the space program is very useful, and anybody who likes their GPS will agree. There are a lot of people who would rather have spent those billions differently.

Answers are almost never black and white. Health care is certainly one of those places. I'm Canadian, and have socialised health care. Nobody up here is refused service, there are no insurance companies making obscene profits and denying coverage, and nobody is driven to bankruptcy from medical bills- but I also took my Mother to the Mayo clinic, where we received a years worth of Canadian diagnostic time in 4 days.

Streetwiseguy wrote: Very true, but I'm not sure exactly what could be considered a tame problem, particularly their example of the moon landing. I think the space program is very useful, and anybody who likes their GPS will agree. There are a lot of people who would rather have spent those billions differently. Answers are almost never black and white. Health care is certainly one of those places. I'm Canadian, and have socialised health care. Nobody up here is refused service, there are no insurance companies making obscene profits and denying coverage, and nobody is driven to bankruptcy from medical bills- but I also took my Mother to the Mayo clinic, where we received a years worth of Canadian diagnostic time in 4 days.

And my cardiologist moved from Canada because he said he wasn't allowed to treat patients the way he knew they needed to be treated. He was limited to only a few approved methods and medicines which rarely fit the patient's needs.

He also lamented how long it actually took to be able to get care. I have a friend in England who has been on the MRI list for over 3 years. He's been over here multiple times to get his MRIs

And my mom went into the hospital last week with pain in her abdomen. They did tests, and ct scans for 4 hours until they found a hole in the bowel, an abscess. They operated immediately and she was out in two days, after she stabilized.

Your cardiologist moved to make more money. He just knows how to dress it up

My last MRI (I was in no hurry-it was no emergency) was next day.

I have friends with back problems (here in the US), that have not and will not get an MRI because they can't afford it

I imagine we could find some sort of middle ground here.

Driving down I-85 into GA the other day, I saw a billboard advertising MRIs for $287. So why do the charge $2,000 here?

I think what's interesting is to ask immigrants and refugees what they think about America. 95% of them don't care, don't understand, or don't want to understand our government and its policies. They want a paycheck, and $10/hr at a factory is awesome money compared to the life they lived in their developing or completely undeveloped home-country.

They see health-care as just another luxury to look forward to. If someone dies in the mean-time, thats a fact of life. In grandpa needs surgery, they'll call every relative in the world to ask for funds. They don't understand that if its an emergency, the doctors will do it whether they can afford it or not. They think this is amazing, but don't understand the repercussions.

People complain night and day about the taxes, oh the taxes, the taxes, the taxes, but I tell you what: I'd rather pay 50% of my income and know that in a life or death situation I can go in debt rather than die, versus in some places in there is not an option. You either have good connections and a common malady, or you die.

People migrate all around the world for different reasons. More security, lower taxation, better opportunities, closer to family, or better climate.

We already see it, some nations are starting to advertise to us. China is trying very hard to lure Americans to their country, South America has long been a haven for left-leaning ex-pats, and Canada, right across the border, and Europe, if you can learn the language, offers plenty of socialist retirement nations.

What you don't see is tea-partiers and libertarians moving to DRC or Somalia, you want guns? You want freedom? You want land? You dont want taxes? Somalia welcomes you! Welcome to the Mongolia, it's like China, only less-Red! Or how bout Uzbekistan, an oil-workers dream land! I've heard the Russian girls in Uzbekistan love white American men.

I've heard conservatives say "this is America, don't like it, you can get the eff out!" well to them I say; "this is America, built on progress and innovation of ideas and knowledge, you don't like it, get the eff out!"

I want progress, I don't care if its fiscally sound progress or social justice progress, but it needs to be a move forward. Hell, when the government buys a computer, it makes progress, someone, somewhere, is becoming more efficient, until they use that government computer to get on their blog and spout political diatribes, but hey, thats the product of social justice.

PHeller wrote: I want progress, I don't care if its fiscally sound progress or social justice progress, but it needs to be a move forward. Hell, when the government buys a computer, it makes progress, someone, somewhere, is becoming more efficient, until they use that government computer to get on their blog and spout political diatribes, but hey, thats the product of social justice.

this, to me, sounds like saying "when i get in my car in the morning, i just want to go! i don't care if the car is in forward or reverse, i just want to go, no matter what makes sense!"

perhaps you meant it differently but thats how it sounds to me, and doesn't make much sense, like change for the sake of change.

And it sure sounds to me like he's saying, stop playing political games, and do what's right for the country.

Zomby Woof wrote: And it sure sounds to me like he's saying, stop playing political games, and do what's right for the country.

Define "right".

Duke wrote:

Zomby Woof wrote: And it sure sounds to me like he's saying, stop playing political games, and do what's right for the country.

Define "right".

Making sure it's citizens are free, safe, and healthy sounds like a good start.

Duke wrote:

Zomby Woof wrote: And it sure sounds to me like he's saying, stop playing political games, and do what's right for the country.

Define "right".

I don't know, maybe working toward a common goal, instead of fighting for the sake of fighting?

Strizzo wrote: this, to me, sounds like saying "when i get in my car in the morning, i just want to go! i don't care if the car is in forward or reverse, i just want to go, no matter what makes sense!"

Maybe I need to reverse in order to get out my driveway?

I'd rather know that the car starts than just say "my headlight MIGHT burn out, so I'm not even going to bother starting the car this morning."

This is a country built on trial and error, why the hell can't we just TRY things in government. And don't say "because we have and they failed" yes, that was 50 years ago, when the world was a different place.

PHeller wrote:

Strizzo wrote: this, to me, sounds like saying "when i get in my car in the morning, i just want to go! i don't care if the car is in forward or reverse, i just want to go, no matter what makes sense!"

Maybe I need to reverse in order to get out my driveway? I'd rather know that the car starts than just say "my headlight MIGHT burn out, so I'm not even going to bother starting the car this morning."

maybe, or maybe you backed in last night, but if you just pick a direction, any direction because it will take you somewhere that is not where you are right now, you might drive through the back wall of the garage and end up in the kitchen instead of the driveway.

Zomby Woof wrote:

Duke wrote:

Zomby Woof wrote: And it sure sounds to me like he's saying, stop playing political games, and do what's right for the country.

Define "right".

I don't know, maybe working toward a common goal, instead of fighting for the sake of fighting?

Sounds good. Come over to my side, and lets get to work.

I know for a fact that most of the time when you offer to pay cash for medical expenses, they will cut it in half. We did that for my daughter's birth and some of the things my 16 yo has needed recently. The difference between the Insurance Price and the Cash Price was consistantly 45-50%. THAT is what's wrong with the medical care here in the US. Overpriced for no damn reason.

Who's fault is that? Governments? I don't think. So that my friends is free market capitalism.

The point of my above posts is to say that I don't want to live in DRC, therefore I believe in the value of government, taxes, and services as a result of those taxes. There are those who seem to think no government, no services is a better option.

"Wicked problems are messy, ill-defined, more complex than we fully grasp, and open to multiple interpretations based on one’s point of view."

What does that have to do with the health care debate? I mean, for me it is complicated, but I didn't realize until the last few weeks that most people I know are experts on not only medicine and insurance, but constitutional law.

I've also come to discover that, while I thought it was complicated and involved compromises, this issue is actually back and white. Very simple. But I still can't wrap my dumb head around it.

I should have worked harder in school.

Looks like I kicked a hornet's nest by posting an excerpt from the article. I'd advise you guys to read the whole thing. It's really well thought out the way they address how this issue isn't easy to discuss and conceptualize.

They also help to explain why it's easy for either side to distort the issue.

In reply to mguar:

You said "Republican" and "progressive" in the same sentence I think I just heard Glenn Beck's head explode!

How about a great quote from one of our Founding Fathers-

"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

-Thomas Jefferson

This is a 10 question quiz that's pretty interesting:

http://healthreform.kff.org/quizzes/health-reform-quiz.aspx

Lots of stuff in there (and lots of stuff not in there) that you'd never guess listening to the debates.

PHeller wrote: I want progress, I don't care if its fiscally sound progress or social justice progress, but it needs to be a move forward.

Falling on your face is still forward progress. You learn something that doesn't work, whereas doing nothing definitely doesn't work.

Heh. It's like rust. Ignore it and it goes away. It takes everything else with it, though...

fast_eddie_72 wrote: This is a 10 question quiz that's pretty interesting: http://healthreform.kff.org/quizzes/health-reform-quiz.aspx Lots of stuff in there (and lots of stuff not in there) that you'd never guess listening to the debates.

I don't live there. I don't watch, listen to, or read the news.

I did the quiz.

Quiz said: You answered 9 out of 10 questions correctly, better than 97% of Americans.

I LOL'd

The quiz was easy. Death panels, everyone will be taxed severely, illegal immigrants get golden tickets and can cut ahead in line for organ transplants (with the sixth you get a free large drink!), no smoking, no drugs, no alcohol, no women (unless you're married), no foul language, no red meat...

Knurled wrote: The quiz was easy. Death panels, everyone will be taxed severely, illegal immigrants get golden tickets and can cut ahead in line for organ transplants (with the sixth you get a free large drink!), no smoking, no drugs, no alcohol, no women (unless you're married), no foul language, no red meat...

You missed the part where it outlaws guns and makes abortion mandatory.