Anatomy of a speed limit.

This was posted in my local paper, and I'd provide a direct link, but it involves cookies.

www.candgnews.com said: Fraser-Clinton Township Chronicle (MI) May 13, 2009 Anatomy of a speed limit HEIDI ROMAN C & G Staff Writer MACOMB COUNTY - A lot of drivers would sheepishly admit to regularly going about 5 mph - ok, maybe 10 mph - over the posted speed limit when traffic is clear. Those drivers' traffic fines bring in a lot of revenue for local law enforcement agencies, but one Michigan State Police expert says a lack of respect for the law isn't necessarily the reason they're speeding. "The reason we all do that is because the majority of our speed limits are too low," said Lt. Gary Megge of the Michigan State Police Traffic Safety Division. Megge has conducted many speed and traffic studies to help determine proper speed limits on Michigan roadways, and says the majority of people - even those who think they have a heavy foot - are reasonable and safe drivers. Megge held a May 7 presentation for Macomb County police officers, elected officials and those involved in traffic safety in the area. The presentation was aimed at educating people about how speed limits are set, and to debunk some myths about speed limits and safety, specifically the belief that slower is always safer. Whenever traffic safety agencies try to raise a speed limit, the change comes with a considerable amount of outcry from the public and local leaders. "Everyone wants a 25 (mph speed limit) in front of their house, but nowhere else because they've got to get to work," Megge said. Megge said most people believe that when a speed limit is raised, drivers will automatically add 5-10 mph on top of the new speed limit and drive at hazardous speeds where the new limit is posted. Megge says raising a speed limit almost never raises the speed at which most motorists will drive. Except for a few rare knuckleheads who likely don't care what speed is posted anyway, he said most people drive at a safe speed that they're comfortable with, regardless of what's posted on the sign. People tend to slow down when the conditions call for it, even without signage telling them to do so. He offered several real-life examples of speed studies conducted to prove it. On one urban freeway, similar to I-94 through Detroit, the speed limit was changed from 55 mph to 70 mph. The study found that most people actually drove 63-65 mph when the speed limit was 55 mph, and only 2.4 percent of drivers actually obeyed the 55 mph limit. Still, it wasn't a high-crash road. Megge sees a problem with that scenario, since some slow drivers were doing 45 mph, while one erratic driver was clocked in at 85 mph. Both are dangerous, he said. Having a wide variation in speeds is a problem. "Think about a freeway," he said. "Is someone going 40 mph on I-696 a safe driver?" The study showed that when the speed limit was raised to 70 mph, the majority of people observed the speed limit and continued to drive safely. "We still have fast cars and slow cars, but we have most drivers in that pace, the 10 mph range that we want people to drive in," he said. The average speed stayed the same before and after the change. The same findings have been repeated in numerous other studies, Megge said. Megge said raising a speed limit to an appropriate level can have several advantages. Law enforcement agencies are able to focus on the drivers who are actually hazardous, rather than ticketing drivers who were driving at a safe and reasonable speed in a zone where the speed limit was probably set too low. An appropriate speed limit can also create less tension and frustration on the roads. The majority of accidents are caused by driver error, not by speed, Megge said. Seatbelts, alcohol use and dangerous intersections are the big problems that Megge said should be focused on. According to the Michigan State Police, traffic fatalities per 100 million vehicle miles traveled in Michigan have decreased by 90 percent since 1940, mostly due to enhanced vehicle safety, better enforcement and improved medical care. Some of today's speed limits are decades old and don't necessarily reflect the safer driving environment. Adam Merchant, traffic engineer for the Road Commission of Macomb County, said local speed limits are regularly reviewed, especially when the surrounding environment changes or after infrastructure improvements. Two Macomb County commissioners in the audience at the presentation questioned Megge's reasoning that higher speed limits can be a good thing. Both pointed to Mound Road, where the speed limit was raised from Warren to Shelby Township despite public objection. Commissioner James Carabelli from northern Shelby Township pointed out that between 23 Mile and 26 Mile roads on Mound, there are five schools, three churches, no sidewalks and no deceleration lanes. He thinks the increased speed limit was a mistake. Megge said the change was the right thing to do. He says traffic studies conducted since the change have shown that drivers have not increased their speed in that area. Megge said he does not encourage people to drive faster, but rather, believes that many speed limits need a second look. You can reach Staff Writer Heidi Roman at hroman@candgnews. com or at (586) 218-5006 Copyright, © All Rights Reserved.

captainzib wrote:

www.candgnews.com said: The majority of accidents are caused by driver error, not by speed, Megge said. Seatbelts, alcohol use and dangerous intersections are the big problems that Megge said should be focused on.

Nonsense, we've all seen the statistics that say 172% of accidents are speed-related. /sarcasm

Great article, great subject. I wish more of this stuff was picked up nationally. The NMA has been trying to bring this issue to the forefront, but the "think of the children" people can yell louder, I guess.

I'd like to buy Lt. Gary Megge a beer and tell him thanks for being reasonable, and for telling an unpopular story.

captainzib wrote: This was posted in my local paper, and I'd provide a direct link, but it involves cookies.

www.candgnews.com said: The majority of accidents are caused by driver error, not by speed, Megge said. Seatbelts, alcohol use and dangerous intersections are the big problems that Megge said should be focused on.

I agree that most are not caused by speed, but speed sure does magnify the results of the accident. If I'm not paying attention in stop and go traffic, I may get into a fender bender and will likely leave the scene (after having a quick inspection and chat with the other driver) without any damage to either car. If I'm not paying attention on a high-speed freeway and hit someone, the damage and likelihood of injury increase.

This is a pretty cool article though. It's nice to know that there are people actively thinking about speed limits and that they're not all trying to lower them.

I wonder if Lt. Megge has read this...

http://www.cracked.com/article_17216_5-most-popular-safety-laws-that-dont-work.html

I see more danger from people going significantly slower than the average (not posted) speed of traffic than anything else. In fact, last year a young girl who had just gotten her license pulled out into I-26 traffic in front of a cement truck which was going with traffic flow. The inevitable result: a rear ended car and three dead people. I bet that and distracted driving (texting, beating the kids etc) are the main causes of accidents.

I'd like to get this officer to my neighborhood, in the county next to his. We have a well-traveled road (Meadowbrook Rd) that has a 30 mph limit. It could safely be 40 or 45, but the revenue generation trumps all.

Now where's that guy who's entire family was murdered by speeders, or what ever his deal was?

Uncommon sense! Wow! Quick, where's my camera!?

I live near a heavy commercial area which is bisected by a wide, six lane (seven counting median) thoroughfare. Speed limit on this gigantic piece of tarmac? 35 mph. Cops have a field day here.

Car and Driver posted a similar article years ago. This will never get national play as some insurance companies have an interest in raising your rates over tickets. Same with law enforcement being used by localities as tax collectors via speed limit enforcement.

Speed limits don't make sense right now but I'm afraid the money racket associated with it keeps it that way.

When you take your driver's license exam in Ottawa, Canada, you have to do a weird left turn that involves parking on the low median, then pulling out into the left lane of a busy four-lane road. The speed limit is around 40 kmh from what I remember, but everyone does at least 80. Of course, you can't speed or you'll fail your test. So all day long, there's a constant stream of new drivers pulling into the fast lane from the middle of the road going at half the speed of traffic. Why there isn't a permanent pile-up right there I've never figured out.

Three cheers for Lt. Gary Megge for saying intelligent things!

Kramer wrote: It could safely be 40 or 45, but the revenue generation trumps all.

We have a Winna!!

neon4891 wrote:

Kramer wrote: It could safely be 40 or 45, but the revenue generation trumps all.

We have a Winna!!

my parents live off of a road where, if it were anywhere else, would be at least a 45 zone, instead its a 30. the cops will pull a u-turn in the middle of traffic and do 65 to catch a person and give them a ticket for going 34. yeah, they're real worried about safety on the roads. riiiiiiight

On the beltway around Memphis, the northern portion has a 55 MPH limit, while the southern portion has a 65 MPH limit. No noticeable reason for the discrepancy. People disregard the signs and go 65-75 MPH. The wrecks that do occur are almost always in bumper to bumper rush hour type situations when folks are actually travelling UNDER the speed limit....until they pass the wrecks.

Statistically the autobahn is a lot safer the the interstate system, I think they drive a bit faster than we do

To quote Clarkson:

Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary… that’s what gets you

the road I live on is 50mph for most of it's 10 mile length.. it is also arrow straight and cuts through the pine barrens. The 2 mile length I live on us residential, has a nasty bend (that I live on the inside of) and is 25 mph.

Most everyone continues to do 50+ mph on it.. and will pass on a solid yellow if the car in front does anything close to the speed limit.

Living on the inside of the ONLY turn, I see at least one nasty wreck a week.. two or three if it is raining.

I also want to add, you have to cross a highway on either end of my 2 mile stretch, with only a stop sign to control traffic.. so it is not like people suddenly find themselves in a 25mph zone.

I both love and hate the 25mph area. I recognise it is good because this is a residential area with a LOT of kids.. but the road could easily handle 50mph is not for the bend in the middle of it.

My issue is not with speed limits, but I have issue with two things: 1) police who think that law is morality and get all puffy when you go 60 in a 55, and 2) the fact that they'll give anyone a license.

Speed limits are a rather ridiculous thing when you consider a 16-year old kid in a Corvette that daddy bought him, and an 84 year old in a 65 chevy pickup with a sloppy steering box, four-wheel manual drum brakes, and bias ply tires.

To say that every vehicle and driver is capable of traveling the same speed safely is just such a joke.

Locally, a road that had a 55mph limit was redone because of a fairly sharp curve. Very nice and the speed limit is now 45mph. NYS Dot logic.
The federal gov't says speed limits should be set by the 85% rule.
I have found that I can drive 8-9mph over the limit with no problem, just don't exceed that.

http://www.detnews.com/article/20100427/METRO05/4270380/Many-speed-limits-set-too-low

Many speed limits set too low George Hunter / The Detroit News Metro Detroit motorists who exceed posted speed limits may not be breaking the law, because in many cases the limits themselves are unlawful, according to one of the state's top traffic cops. Four years after the passage of Public Act 85, which requires municipalities in Michigan to conduct studies to set proper speed limits, most cities, villages and townships have not complied, according to Lt. Gary Megge, head of the Michigan State Police Traffic Services Section. One likely reason, said Megge, whose section advises communities on how to set proper speed limits, is that communities want speeding ticket revenue, and failing to conduct the required speed studies allows them to keep enforcing their speed limits that Megge calls "artificially low." "I think money is part of it, and I find it reprehensible that communities aren't following the law," Megge said. "In many cases, the problem is the speed limit, not the motorist. Communities have to obey the law, too." A Detroit News review of 10 randomly selected Metro Detroit roadways identified as "speed traps" by the National Motorists Association, a grassroots advocacy group, found that no studies of those roadways have been conducted in accordance with the 2006 public act. Public roadways are the responsibility of communities, county road commissions or the Michigan Department of Transportation. By law, it's up to those entities to conduct studies on the roads that fall under their jurisdiction. Public Act 85 provides guidelines for determining proper speed limits. One option under the law would set the limit on the 85th percentile of free-flowing traffic on a road segment. Driver beat ticket in court Daniel Kennedy, a criminal justice professor at the University of Detroit-Mercy, said it's possible for "someone in a responsible position" to compel communities to adhere to the public act. "They would have to come up with a writ of mandamus, which means 'we command,' " he said. "That would force communities to obey state law." Driver Jim Walker of Lexington beat a traffic ticket in 2008 by proving in court that the posted 30 mph speed limit on Nixon Road in Ann Arbor had not been set in accordance with PA 85. He argued that because the city had not adopted the 2006 Uniform Traffic Code, by law the city must set limits using the access point method. Since the city hadn't done that, the ticket was thrown out. "The judge said he wasn't happy about it, but he had to throw the ticket out because we proved the speed limit wasn't legal," said Walker, 65, who helped another man beat a speeding ticket using the same argument. "The city appealed, but the judge dismissed the appeal." Steve Purdy, director of the National Motorists Association Michigan chapter, said prosecutors usually will dismiss tickets challenged under PA 85. "They don't want to establish a precedent, so they'll throw the ticket out or offer a deal where they give you an impeding traffic ticket rather than a speeding ticket," he said. Impeding traffic tickets usually carry higher fines than speeding tickets, Purdy said, but the tradeoff is no demerit points are attached to the driving record, meaning insurance rates do not increase. Raised limit drew protest The Macomb County Road Commission recently increased the speed limit on Metro Parkway between Jefferson and Dequindre in Sterling Heights to 55 mph, after conducting a speed study that showed the 40 and 50 mph posted limits were improper. The decision prompted the Sterling Heights City Council to adopt a resolution opposing the increase, because it hadn't been notified of the change. Sterling Heights spokesman Steve Guitar admitted the gesture was largely symbolic, since the speed limit increase was required by law. "They know it's the law," Guitar said. "They just wanted to go on record to say they were concerned." He said the apprehension about the increase was over safety, not the potential loss of revenue because the number of speeding tickets issued by police might drop. However, Ferndale Police Chief Michael Kitchen admitted revenue was the reason behind his recent decision to step up traffic enforcement. "We have to write more tickets in order to avoid layoffs," Kitchen said. "I don't like how this looks to the public at all, but the bottom line is: If you obey the speed limit, we won't give you a ticket." Kitchen admitted that the 35-mph speed limit on the most heavily-driven roadway in Ferndale -- Woodward Avenue near Nine Mile -- is likely too low. "That speed limit would probably be 45 mph if they ever did a speed study," said Kitchen, adding that Woodward falls under MDOT's jurisdiction. MDOT spokesman Rob Morosi said no speed study has been done on that stretch of Woodward since PA 85 was passed. In Troy, the city's Traffic Improvement Association said it plans to conduct speed studies on several stretches of road, including Rochester Road near Maple, where the speed limit is 35 mph. That stretch was identified by the National Motorists Association as a speed trap. "We're hoping to get those studies done this spring," said Troy Police Lt. David Livingston. Eureka's 45 mph is suspect Megge said he plans to carry out a speed study later this month on Eureka Road near Interstate 275 in Romulus, where the posted speed limit is 45 mph. Megge said police have written a rash of tickets there. "That's a county road, and we're working with (the Wayne County Road Commission) to see if that's a valid speed limit," Megge said. "Any time you have police issuing an inordinate number of tickets, it probably means the speed limit is set artificially low." Sgt. Donald Smith, head of the Romulus Police traffic bureau, said that stretch of Eureka is a "high-crash area." "There is a fair amount of enforcement there, but that's because there are a lot of crashes there," he said. Last year, 23 accidents occurred at the intersection of Eureka and Middle Belt, Smith said. But Megge said there's a misconception that driving faster results in more crashes. "It's absolutely not true," he said. "What's dangerous is when someone drives at an inappropriate speed." State Police cannot force communities to comply with the public act, Megge said. "If a speed limit hasn't properly been set, and someone exceeds it, the driver is in violation of the number on the sign," Megge said. "But if they're driving at a speed that's realistic, do they deserve a $200 fine? Personally, I say they do not. "I know if I got a ticket on a road where the speed limit wasn't set properly, I'd fight it." ghunter@detnews.com (313) 222-2134 From The Detroit News: Many speed limits set too low | detnews.com | The Detroit News

http://www.detnews.com/article/20081118/METRO/811180402/

Cops' jobs tied to ticket totals Some officers' performance reviews include the number of citations written per shift. George Hunter / The Detroit News Police officers in Metro Detroit are often ordered to write a certain number of moving violations -- but chiefs issuing those edicts are careful not to use the "Q" word. "Nobody likes to call them quotas, but that's exactly what they are," Trenton Police Sgt. Richard Lyons said. "When you're being told how many tickets you need to write, to me that's a quota." State lawmakers banned ticket quotas in 1979, but in 1988 an exception was written into the Motor Vehicle Code that allows the number of tickets written to be used in evaluations of traffic enforcement officers, as long as ticket writing is weighed equally among other job criteria. "It's a bit of a loophole," said James Tagnanelli, president of the Police Officers Association of Michigan. "Chiefs never like to use the 'Q' word, but they're certainly telling officers they have to write 'X' amount of tickets." Law enforcement officials say they are under more pressure than ever to issue traffic citations as a way to generate revenue in the midst of a moribund economy and dwindling state revenue sharing. A Detroit News analysis of court and police records shows the number of tickets has increased dramatically in many Metro Detroit communities over the past six years, a period during which state revenue sharing dropped by $3 billion. To help offset that loss, many communities are mandating the number of tickets traffic officers must write, Tagnanelli said. "Police departments are being pressured to bring in more money by writing tickets," he said. "So we're seeing more and more of these performance standards, which are basically quotas." It's part of the job Livonia Police Chief Robert Stevenson argued that police officials need to track what his seven traffic officers are doing. "A part of being a police officer is writing tickets," Stevenson said. "And we have to assess how our officers are doing their job. We have performance standards that look at many different aspects of their performance, including the number of tickets they write. But that's just one thing we look at." John Whalen of Warren said he suspects police have ticket quotas. "I got a ticket for rolling through a stop sign, and when I went to court the line was so long it looked like Kmart," he said. "There must have been 200 people paying their tickets. ... They absolutely have quotas to fill." Among the police agencies that have taken advantage of the exemption allowing ticket mandates: • In Trenton, traffic officers are required to write at least 15 tickets a month, or they will suffer on annual performance reviews. • In Rochester, officers are required to average 1.5 tickets per eight-hour shift, which equates to 7.5 tickets per week, or 30 per month. • Livonia officers are required to average two tickets per shift. • Officers in Oak Park must issue at least one ticket every other day in order to be rated as "satisfactory" on performance evaluations. • Redford Township Police enacted a policy last year that gave officers one hour's worth of overtime pay for every two traffic citations issued. But that program was scrapped after community activists protested. • In Dearborn Heights, officers must write 12 to 15 tickets per week. Police departments that take advantage of federal highway seat belt grants under the "Click It or Ticket" campaign also work under a quota system. Federal highway grants compel communities to dispatch their traffic cops on seat belt sweeps, with a mandatory number of stops during each shift. The number of stops depends on the grant. The Police Officers Association of Michigan filed grievances in Rochester in 2006 and Oak Park in 1998, claiming officers were being unfairly disciplined because traffic enforcement was the primary standard for evaluations. The union lost both cases in arbitration. "As long as it's only one of the criteria used to evaluate officers, it's legal," said Tagnanelli. Shelby Twp. in an 'uproar' Police officials are not allowed to threaten officers with punishment directly because they don't write a certain number of tickets -- but that's what happened recently in Shelby Township, Treasurer Paul Viar said. "There was an uproar (in April) when the police chief ordered the officers to write at least one ticket per day or they would be punished," Viar said. "The officers objected." Tagnanelli said he met with Shelby Township police officials. "They re-evaluated their policy," he said. "It was written right into the policy that if officers failed to write one violation per every eight hours on the road, there would be a written reprimand. They're not allowed to do it that way." Shelby Township Capt. Roland Woelkers said the Police Department has not crafted a new policy since law enforcement officials met with the union and scrapped the original plan. "We're in the evaluation stage, to see what kind of policy we want to put in place," Woelkers said. "We certainly want to make sure the officers are doing their job, and traffic enforcement is a big part of that. But we're looking at the entire spectrum of what our officers do." Ticketing tied to complex Viar said he believes the attempt to have Shelby officers write more tickets likely was tied to a proposed $23 million police and court complex. When township officials announced the plan, they promised no taxpayer money would be used to build and maintain the facility. Instead, court fees would pay for it. Viar feared the decision to pay for the facility entirely with fees would open the door for a ticket quota. "Certainly, I can see the danger in having to pay for this facility," Viar said. "It's been deemed that the court's not supposed to be a revenue stream, but we all know the court generates money. But what if they don't generate enough money? Are the police going to put a ticket quota in place so they can pay the bills? These are valid questions." Woelkers said he's heard the questions himself. "That point has been raised: 'You're trying to get us to get more revenue to build the court.' But it's absolutely not true," said the police captain. The same issue was raised in Dearborn Heights in 2006, when a group calling itself the Concerned Citizens of Dearborn Heights passed out fliers urging motorists to avoid driving in the city because of the "revenue generating scheme" in which the group said officers were ramping up their ticket writing to pay for the $22 million Justice Center, which was completed in 2003. "Everyone knows they need money to pay for their Justice Center, and they're doing it by writing tickets," said Dianne Sleiman of Dearborn Heights, who said she had a perfect driving record before she got a speeding ticket in May on Ann Arbor Trail. "It's not exactly a secret." You can reach George Hunter at (313) 222-2134 or ghunter@detnews.com. From The Detroit News: http://www.detnews.com/article/20081...#ixzz0mJcPJ5VZ

signage, gets mentioned briefly, now there's another topic. Aside from being ugly, isn't there a few cities removing these passive nanny tools and finding it beneficial? for example on Rock Creek Parkway there is a sign that says road narrows, really? you need a flippin' sign to point that out?

confuZion3 wrote: I agree that most are not caused by speed, but speed sure does magnify the results of the accident. If I'm not paying attention in stop and go traffic, I may get into a fender bender and will likely leave the scene (after having a quick inspection and chat with the other driver) without any damage to either car. If I'm not paying attention on a high-speed freeway and hit someone, the damage and likelihood of injury increase. This is a pretty cool article though. It's nice to know that there are people actively thinking about speed limits and that they're not all trying to lower them.

People forget that it isn't speed that causes problems but the difference in speed. Hitting a wall at 20mph will generally do much more damage than hitting a car doing 60mph whilst doing 65mph yourself. The one caveat is that both drivers have to maintain control of the vehicles during and after the rubbing. And since most people on the road can't control their cars in normal situations how can we expect them to maintain control in difficult situations which they haven't been trained for?

An interesting experiment on speed limits and how much regard the average motorist has for them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoETMCosULQ&

billy3esq wrote:

captainzib wrote:

www.candgnews.com said: The majority of accidents are caused by driver error, not by speed, Megge said. Seatbelts, alcohol use and dangerous intersections are the big problems that Megge said should be focused on.

Nonsense, we've all seen the statistics that say 172% of accidents are speed-related. /sarcasm

That is false. It is 163%

81% of all auto accidents involve automobiles.

There was a story recently in Los Angeles that a city in the San Fernando Valley (you know, valley girls and all) wanted to RAISE the speed limit on some streets!!

Why? Well, apparently there is some law somewhere (city law?) that states they cannot use radar enforcement below a certain speed, so they want to raise the limits so the can do radar enforcement. Money money money money... Money!

Money so they say

Is the root of all evil today

But if you ask for a rise it's no surprise that they're

giving none away