Angery people.

Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Boost_Crazy said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Inflation has the exact opposite impact on those that you want to help as you are touting. 

1) Most low wage workers don't own homes. Or businesses. Or pretty much anything valuable enough to have such a debt that inflation would do them any good at all. Any debt that a low wage worker accrues would be at an interest rate that is substantially higher than inflation (credit card) or on a rapidly depreciating asset (car.) 

2) Inflation effectively moves the finish line away from a low wage worker. Buy the time they rise through the ranks and get a better job, the cost of living has also risen. 

3) The whole reason we are having this discussion is because of inflation. Your argument behind the need for a higher minimum wage is to keep pace with inflation. But you also say we need to raise the minimum wage to drive inflation. Do you see where this is leading? Inflation is not a friend to low wage workers.

I don’t know how to tell you this without sounding like a know it all jerk.  

That is not my intention, I’ve enjoyed the debate and learned some interesting things here.  

But you are just wrong. 

Yesterday during my charter I noticed all the help wanted signs. And asked a question at work. 

The bus company I work for has a lot of the little buses and vans for special needs kids.  Starting wage for a para is $14.75 an hour. The requirement to be a para?  You have to have a pulse.  Training none, skills none.  You ride in a bus and make sure the special need kid keeps the seat belt on. If he takes it off you tell the driver who pulls over until the seat belt is back on.  

Yet every day we are short and buses that require a para go without,  One  bus with a para  will drive over to another to lend the para.  

 The White Castle in Hopkins offering a $14.00 an hour starting wage.  

Home Depot in Plymouth hiring 15-16 year olds

McDonalds in Wayzata hiring 14-15 year olds starting wage $13.75 hr. 

The oil change place on the end of Decatur offers $12.00 an hour and hasn’t had a single applicant in more than a year.  

These are just the tiny handful of signs with prices I noticed and made note of yesterday. I’m sure there are thousands of others. Some have been up long enough to be badly weathered.  

My point? Clearly the real minimum wage is massively over the  2009 number.  And if places want entry level help  they have to step up.  

So the mom and pop restaurants or whatever you’re trying to defend have already felt the pinch. 

You don't sound like a jerk, this is a good conversation. You do sound a bit confused. This is the latest example of where you presented an argument that completely counters your premise. 

It's terrific that low skilled workers are making much more than minimum wage. There are plenty of jobs that pay quite a bit higher available to people with little skill or experience, I pointed that out pages ago. As I said before, if you have no skill but need to support yourself, you don't need a raise to minimum wage- you need to get a different job. 

I do believe that you are incorrect in extrapolating that if some businesses can afford to pay more for low skilled workers, than all can. That is simply untrue. The market will set the wages, as your example show. Businesses don't want the best employees available. They want the best that they can afford that will still meet their standards. McDonalds could hire world class chefs to flip the burgers, but not many customers will pay $50 for a Big Mac. But maybe their labor market is thin, and they can't get good employees for minimum wage. They kick it up a couple bucks, and find that they are able to get better people. They do more business, and make more profits. That is how it is supposed to work. The business determines it's needs, and adjusts accordingly. The ones that do that the best grow, and hire more people.

I don’t believe I’m incorrect or confused. I think the federal minimum wage is something like $7.45 /hr.  With unemployment at 4% the federal minimum wage is nearly 1/2 what entry level workers are willing to accept and massively under the cost of living. 

I think you believe the cost of living must be extravagant luxury or  something. But it’s not.  It’s barely or not even getting by for a single  mother. Have you looked at the price of day care for children?  The food clothing  and shelter?  Then somehow you need to get to work( transportation) 

What about live at home teenagers?  They need everything. Cars clothes. Gas money insurance money for college etc 

They are starting out with little and need everything. 

The purpose of the minimum wage was to stabilize the post-depression economy and protect the workers in the labor force. The minimum wage was designed to create a minimum standard of living to protect the health and well-being of employees. It does not rise at the same rate as inflation so it doesn't truly keep up with the times, but it's not going down either.

"Minimum standard of living" does not equal living well, nor supporting a family. These standards require more skilled jobs that pay more, hence the motivation to improve yourself to support your standard of living.

Kids need a lot of things, but cars are arguably not one of them these days as fewer and fewer kids are interested in driving at all, and there are other transportation options available for a resourceful youth. Savings for college are certainly nice, but there are scholarships available for those who apply themselves and show aptitude.

Does anyone work with their hands anymore like real physical labor? And are they being compensated for the knowledge their hands hold?

In reply to EastCoastMojo :

Yes scholarships are available to those with superior grades.  By definition we are not talking about the average here but the few.  

The rest   ( most people) must earn enough to pay their way.  

frenchyd said:

In reply to EastCoastMojo :

Yes scholarships are available to those with superior grades.  By definition we are not talking about the average here but the few.  

The rest   ( most people) must earn enough to pay their way.  

 

 

There are all types of scholarship programs. Academic, athletic, some for women only, some for minorities, artistic and musically gifted students, even some for students who participate heavily in community service. The opportunities are there for those inclined to seek them out and work for them. 

In reply to EastCoastMojo :

I had my college education paid for by two tours in Vietnam.  However only 1% of Americans have ever served in the military. And the GI bill is the biggest source of college tuition.  

My daughters needed all the help I could provide but since they went post 2008 and I was unemployed  they wound up getting student loans in spite of working while in college and the money I’d saved to help them. My oldest is just about paid off her loans while the youngest still has a few years to go.  

Student loans now exceed all other forms of debt including credit cards.  It’s what’s preventing that whole  generation from home ownership. And a major drag on the economy.  

Now please don’t cite the small percentage of people who abused the loan system. Because I’ll come back with the abuses of the loan system which  provided criminally fraudulent education.  Like a recent presidential candidate forced to admit fraud and pay a large settlement.  

It’s not uncommon for students seeking a legitimate career path  using prudent techniques to wind up with + six figure loan balances.  Doctors Dentists Lawyers Pilots  many careers start out with that sort of loan burden. 

The total grants and aide available only cover a tiny fraction of costs even for the most dedicated and gifted seeker.  

EastCoastMojo said:

The purpose of the minimum wage was to stabilize the post-depression economy and protect the workers in the labor force. The minimum wage was designed to create a minimum standard of living to protect the health and well-being of employees. It does not rise at the same rate as inflation so it doesn't truly keep up with the times, but it's not going down either.

"Minimum standard of living" does not equal living well, nor supporting a family. These standards require more skilled jobs that pay more, hence the motivation to improve yourself to support your standard of living.

Kids need a lot of things, but cars are arguably not one of them these days as fewer and fewer kids are interested in driving at all, and there are other transportation options available for a resourceful youth. Savings for college are certainly nice, but there are scholarships available for those who apply themselves and show aptitude.

So what about young single mothers?  The father runs off leaving the new mother with nothing. Parents get angry and toss her out of the house.   

She needs everything. I do mean everything and maybe doesn’t even have a high school degree.  

Against all odds she decides to have the child instead of aborting it.  Now what?   

She doesn’t have a choice does she?    Welfare or a job that doesn’t pay enough to get by no matter how hard she works or anything?  

Let’s not get judgemental here. She’s going to get plenty of that all her life for whatever mistake she made.  She’ll judge herself her family will judge her her friends will judge her, the church will judge her, social workers will judge her, and unless she’s perfect from that moment on the police and courts will judge her.  

But money wise how will this work?  It doesn’t matter if that child is hard working,  polite, gifted,  or  anything unless it is extremely lucky like winning the lottery lucky it won’t be able to achieve to its full potential. 

TRoglodyte said:

Does anyone work with their hands anymore like real physical labor? And are they being compensated for the knowledge their hands hold?

That’s the one bright shining star that everyone forgets. Skilled trades make as much as dentists, more than most Lawyers do, A lot more than most school teachers do.  

And still there is a shortage of them. We can learn so much from other countries.  Germany for example doesn’t trash anyone who isn’t college bound. They pay for their education and treat  them with respect.  

 

That’s the one bright shining star that everyone forgets. Skilled trades make as much as dentists, more than most Lawyers do, A lot more than most school teachers do.  

 

I would love to see the cherry-picked statistics for those claims.  The average for all skilled labor  trades is around 23 bucks an hour.  High end figures, for many years in the trade and in areas where unions and massive demand have driven up the price, still generally ticks in below $50/hour.  Just how many full time dentists, lawyers, or other highly paid professionals are accepting less than that for their time?

A fast use of teh Googlez puts the median (as in not peak) hourly pay for a dentist at around $86.  Lawyers clock in at $63.5. 

The median US hourly wage of all paid workers, including the $2.50/hr untipped waiters, and the rare four-figure per hour incomes of CEOs and celebrities is supposedly around 22.50.   Skilled trades put you in the middle of that market, and even the outliers (just how many radiation techs does a hospital need, how many commercial jet repair specialists are there, etc.) don't swing you up above solid post grad degree work.

I am in a very skilled trade. Atlantic City is the third highest paying town for a stage hand, only NYC and Chicago pay more.

As a full timer, I get $35/hour, 40+ hours a week, and benefits. If I were a part time "casual" I would make $38/hour, but no benefits and no guarentee on any hours at all.

In reply to travellering :

My son in law is a licensed electrician working on low voltage. He earns $45,000 a year plus over time and benefits. He’s a young man and can expect to earn much more as he progresses.   My other son-in-law is an engineer  for the railroad and will make over $65,000 this year  plus benefits 

A union carpenter is worth $60,000 more with over time and they all get benefits including full retirement at age 55 

At the bus company I have 2 dentists driving who gave up their practice because the insurance costs and practice costs minus what they are paid from insurance companies  meant there was little left over.

We also have a chiropractor who tried 4 times unsuccessfully to get a practice going. 

i don’t know if you are aware of the lawyer glut. There are more lawyers-to-be in school  then there are lawyers actually working. When a class graduates about 20% will actually get paying jobs.  The rest will find whatever work they can to pay their student loans.  

 I hustle like crazy  in addition to my regular routes I’m the go-to guy for charters and activities  I might break $30,000 this year  but that includes working 12 hour days at the state fair for 10 days  driving the handicap buses which means I have to strap all the wheelchairs down and then I unstrap  them once at the fairgrounds  extremely physical work for a man of 70  

Most  earn less than I do.  That includes the 2 dentists and one Doctor of Chiropractic. 

So yes skilled tradesmen can earn a very nice living and college degree is not a guarantee of success.  

 

So yes skilled tradesmen can earn a very nice living and college degree is not a guarantee of success.  

I am not arguing in the slightest with your last paragraph.  However, the generalization that "skilled trades earn more than dentists" doesn't hold up on averages anywhere.  

Yes, there are many people who would be much better served by a bout of vocational school and entry into a skilled trade than by six to eight years of a four-year humanities degree and no work experience outside of a bar or pizza joint.  Universities fund many of their departments off the backs of students like that, whether the individuals are burning Mom and Dad's cash, or hocking their future income to Uncle Sam.

travellering said:

 

So yes skilled tradesmen can earn a very nice living and college degree is not a guarantee of success.  

I am not arguing in the slightest with your last paragraph.  However, the generalization that "skilled trades earn more than dentists" doesn't hold up on averages anywhere.  

Yes, there are many people who would be much better served by a bout of vocational school and entry into a skilled trade than by six to eight years of a four-year humanities degree and no work experience outside of a bar or pizza joint.  Universities fund many of their departments off the backs of students like that, whether the individuals are burning Mom and Dad's cash, or hocking their future income to Uncle Sam.

Fair enough. I don’t know for a fact that a skilled tradesman will earn more than a Dentist over their lifetimes. I guess there are just too many variables. 

My Dentist is a second generation dentist who took over the successful  practice from his father. However recently he stopped accepting dental insurance.  Too low a return rate.  I tried using my HMO dentist  but found I was expected to accept third world dental practices and standards.  The irony was the cost was the same as my dentist would charge me without insurance.  

travellering said:

 

That’s the one bright shining star that everyone forgets. Skilled trades make as much as dentists, more than most Lawyers do, A lot more than most school teachers do.  

 

I would love to see the cherry-picked statistics for those claims.  The average for all skilled labor  trades is around 23 bucks an hour.  High end figures, for many years in the trade and in areas where unions and massive demand have driven up the price, still generally ticks in below $50/hour.  Just how many full time dentists, lawyers, or other highly paid professionals are accepting less than that for their time?

A fast use of teh Googlez puts the median (as in not peak) hourly pay for a dentist at around $86.  Lawyers clock in at $63.5. 

The median US hourly wage of all paid workers, including the $2.50/hr untipped waiters, and the rare four-figure per hour incomes of CEOs and celebrities is supposedly around 22.50.   Skilled trades put you in the middle of that market, and even the outliers (just how many radiation techs does a hospital need, how many commercial jet repair specialists are there, etc.) don't swing you up above solid post grad degree work.

Aircraft mechanic here.  For 7 of the last 10 years my W2 has been over $130k.  There's ups and downs for sure, but my quality of life rivals my doctor's.  You probably wouldnt even know it if you saw the two of us together.

full disclosure:  took a promotion in november so technically I am now an "Engineer" but the figures for what i made as a mechanic are real.  No degree, no unions.

No offense or slight meant to your very satisfactory income, but what percentage of "skilled trades" workers do you think even make half your yearly take?  There's aircraft mechanics, and then there's seamstress/dental hygienist /stage lighting technician/dump truck driver and so on, all falling under the broad heading of "skilled trades."  There is certainly a path for a few skilled trade workers to earn more than the lower tier of doctors, lawyers, and the like, but I simply called out the blanket statement as cherry picking it's data.  You for example, are a bright shining cherry in its favor.  Most, if not all of the machinists I know are the other way.

A lot of well-off people I know started in skilled trades and moved on to management or business ownership, or like you, snuck in to the Engineering show through the staff elevator instead of the college front door.  I never said you couldn't earn a good living in any skilled trade, simply that claiming skilled trades make more than lawyers and dentists was misleading wording at best.

travellering said:

No offense or slight meant to your very satisfactory income, but what percentage of "skilled trades" workers do you think even make half your yearly take?  There's aircraft mechanics, and then there's seamstress/dental hygienist /stage lighting technician/dump truck driver and so on, all falling under the broad heading of "skilled trades."  There is certainly a path for a few skilled trade workers to earn more than the lower tier of doctors, lawyers, and the like, but I simply called out the blanket statement as cherry picking it's data.  You for example, are a bright shining cherry in its favor.  Most, if not all of the machinists I know are the other way.

A lot of well-off people I know started in skilled trades and moved on to management or business ownership, or like you, snuck in to the Engineering show through the staff elevator instead of the college front door.  I never said you couldn't earn a good living in any skilled trade, simply that claiming skilled trades make more than lawyers and dentists was misleading wording at best.

Skilled trades provide a path to middle class without the expense of a college degree. Many with degrees or even post graduate degrees earn a similar  income once adjusted for the added costs of their profession. 

For most of his life my younger brother  a doctor was paying student loans I never had. Plus he had to pay expensive insurance. He had a full scholarship to Harvard and Harvard medical college. Plus he was selected as a Rhoads  scholar and spent Two years in England finally selected by Johns Hopkins for his internship before The Mayo Clinic hired him as a transplant surgeon.  Student loans during that period added up. So in spite of a massive salary when the hospital in Fargo  hired him away, he wasn’t taking home as much as I did as a salesman.  

Brothers tend to be competitive I know we were. Only since 2008 and the loss of my career has he caught up and passed me.  However we aren’t that far apart yet on lifetime earnings. 

I apologize 

I got off track. My point is that skilled trades can earn a decent income. 

Compared to some like teachers it’s better and without the student loan burden.  I used to think teachers made a good living. Turns out teachers in California are near the bottom # 47 out of 50.  West Virginia was at the bottom  and Oklahoma. Arkansas are right down there as well 

TRoglodyte said:

Does anyone work with their hands anymore like real physical labor? And are they being compensated for the knowledge their hands hold?

Well I live in a town of professional liars that is supposed to be the pinnacle of the knowledge economy but you wouldn't know that from the drivel they spew unless it's 'inside' knowledge we're considering.  A more sissified feminized bunch of "effete arseholes" you are unlikely to come across outside of  a fashion week somewhere.  So maybe not.  Needless to say I'm not including the construction workers putting up the millions of square feet of office space paid for by y'all because they can't afford/stomach paying $900+ for a room. 

frenchyd said:

Skilled trades provide a path to middle class without the expense of a college degree. Many with degrees or even post graduate degrees earn a similar  income once adjusted for the added costs of their profession. 

That's really the point I wanted to make too.  Admittedly I'm jumping in the thread kool-aid without reading the previous 20 pages.  Apologies if it's off track, it's just the whole "ah, the trades are disappearing and you need a degree to dig ditches" has gotten on my nerves a bit in recent years and it's just not true.

travellering said:

No offense or slight meant to your very satisfactory income, but what percentage of "skilled trades" workers do you think even make half your yearly take? 

I think there's a lot actually.  My felon of a brother is on track to break 100k this year as an electrician (Union job in Seattle), my uncle is about to collect his third pension (State patrol, USAF, and for the life of me I cant remember the third but my aunt wont shut up about it) but that guy has some stinking cash!  Nice house in the mountains with out buildings, a newer porsche, and a cessna.  I think there's machinists, welders, accountants, and a whole mess of opportunities for someone without a degree to break into 6-figures.  I think there's usually concessions you have to make, like my uncle was in the USAF reserves while in the State Patrol, I had to live overseas, my brother had to work something like 1000 hours at super low pay, my cousin (the accountant) had to slowly start up her firm while working for another, and that's probably a big bottle neck for a lot of people.

Example: my best friend still makes the same $22/hr we made together back in 2007.  He has an absolutely toxic marriage that keeps him in a position where he can rely on the good reputation he made with our boss before he got married to keep his job.  There are all sorts of other reasons someone might be stuck where they are (opportunities in their area, lack of knowledge about better opportunities, lack of qualifications, unhealthy self image, not your primary goal, medical issues, sometimes it's just "hard", etc) so it does become a bit of a pyramid.

TLDR

I think there are a LOT of opportunities.  They usually come with an astrict.   I think that's where the hangup is.

In reply to Hungary Bill :

Look at Germany. They evaluate the students and by the time they get to 8th grade they are on a career track. College or trades.  ( they don’t call it that because of the ego thing). But either path will lead to a comfortable life.  

Plus their teachers are well treated and respected unlike here in America.  Here if Johnny doesn’t do well it’s the teachers fault not the unhappy home life of lack of attention from the parents who are too busy growing up themselves to help jr.  

If America worked like Germany works Americans would be happier, healthier, and massively better off financially.  

In part because there isn’t such disparity in wealth distribution. And because they designed their political system so compromise was paramount.  It would be nearly impossible for one group to totally get their way.  Probably because of letting the Nazi’s run things and finding out the real cost of one group running it. 

Hungary Bill said:

travellering said:

No offense or slight meant to your very satisfactory income, but what percentage of "skilled trades" workers do you think even make half your yearly take? 

I think there's a lot actually.  My felon of a brother is on track to break 100k this year as an electrician (Union job in Seattle), my uncle is about to collect his third pension (State patrol, USAF, and for the life of me I cant remember the third but my aunt wont shut up about it) but that guy has some stinking cash!  Nice house in the mountains with out buildings, a newer porsche, and a cessna.  I think there's machinists, welders, accountants, and a whole mess of opportunities for someone without a degree to break into 6-figures.  I think there's usually concessions you have to make, like my uncle was in the USAF reserves while in the State Patrol, I had to live overseas, my brother had to work something like 1000 hours at super low pay, my cousin (the accountant) had to slowly start up her firm while working for another, and that's probably a big bottle neck for a lot of people.

Example: my best friend still makes the same $22/hr we made together back in 2007.  He has an absolutely toxic marriage that keeps him in a position where he can rely on the good reputation he made with our boss before he got married to keep his job.  There are all sorts of other reasons someone might be stuck where they are (opportunities in their area, lack of knowledge about better opportunities, lack of qualifications, unhealthy self image, not your primary goal, medical issues, sometimes it's just "hard", etc) so it does become a bit of a pyramid.

TLDR

I think there are a LOT of opportunities.  They usually come with an astrict.   I think that's where the hangup is.

I’ve a neighbor who will get his third retirement source in a few years. Plus social security.  He did it because he saw his father retire with nothing but minimum social security.

 He did 20 years( 19&6) in the Navy. Retired E8. Worked for the state for 17 and will have worked for the county long enough to get their retirement shortly. 

In addition he started a lawn mowing service 20 years ago that by itself was enough to pay his mortgage.  By my calculation he will be getting almost $11,000 a month in retirement plus the income from his lawn mowing and whatever his wife gets. 

I’m ignoring any IRA etc. plus his Medical from the VA.  Well except with over $4600 a month income I don’t think he can get it so he’ll have to rely on Medicare same as most of us. 

We have an in-house machinist, and he makes $60 an hour, I know as I process it every week.  He could make more somewhere else and has been offered more, but he has it pretty easy here and likes it. 

My brother does heating and air, and makes over $100k a year.  He never went to college, but he did have to go to school to get a license however.  Fortunately it wasn't that much.  When he was younger he was looked down on by many because he didn't go to college, now he out earns my sister the college dean.

I think we do a great disservice to our kids telling them they have to go to college to succeed.  And I think in many ways colleges have not done a good job of keeping up with society.  There are majors offered that have little real world applications yet these kids graduate expecting a job.  For every doctor or lawyer that graduates, there are probably a few dozen others that find it tough to get a job and pay their bills.   I graduated with a commercial art degree, and while i worked in that field for half of my life, I had to move on to something else to get paid a decent amount.  Preparing people for life and helping them to know what to expect from their major is not what they do anymore.  

Some people accel in college, others don't.  In the end it's nice to have a choice.  

WHY is college so damn expensive???

You identify the best teachers for each subject…you record their lectures…you have grad students create study guides, exam questions, etc…you give the kids laptops and an internet connection…you have them report to a certified testing center a few times per year…when they’ve successfully met all the requirements, you hand them a diploma.

Seriously, there’s no reason why a perfectly respectable Bachelor’s degree should cost more than $6,000ish.

With regards to minimum wage and automation and stuff, a universal minimum income is coming to the US (we actually already have a quasi version of it in the form of rampant welfare fraud).

Alright, the government will give you money for nothing but rather than letting you sit around all day thinking of ways to get in trouble, you’ll be picking up degree after degree after degree.

Why not, the incremental cost is almost nothing and constantly passing exams serves as a pretty good proof that the UMI recipients aren’t partying too hard.

TRoglodyte said:

Does anyone work with their hands anymore like real physical labor? And are they being compensated for the knowledge their hands hold?

I do. And no, I am not compensated anywhere near what I do. You might called me unskilled labor, but when I can call substitute items or entire recipes from memory, to professional chefs, or get them on products they've never heard before, you can't tell me I'm not good at my job. 

RX Reven' said:

WHY is college so damn expensive???

You identify the best teachers for each subject…you record their lectures…you have grad students create study guides, exam questions, etc…you give the kids laptops and an internet connection…you have them report to a certified testing center a few times per year…when they’ve successfully met all the requirements, you hand them a diploma.

Seriously, there’s no reason why a perfectly respectable Bachelor’s degree should cost more than $6,000ish.

With regards to minimum wage and automation and stuff, a universal minimum income is coming to the US (we actually already have a quasi version of it in the form of rampant welfare fraud).

Alright, the government will give you money for nothing but rather than letting you sit around all day thinking of ways to get in trouble, you’ll be picking up degree after degree after degree.

Why not, the incremental cost is almost nothing and constantly passing exams serves as a pretty good proof that the UMI recipients aren’t partying too hard.

I laughed at your idea, but it has a good point.  However some people just need that face to face interaction to learn.  

Since I was a NESEP candidate but I had 2 tours to do they just gave me correspondence courses  to do rather than actual college courses. 

I wont tell you how hard it was to stay on schedule when you are flying up to 14 hours a day and still need to deal with the division you’re assigned to.  

Getting your assignment done on schedule was always last of my priorities. Yet sometimes I had to swap seats with a back  seat crewman  and hope he kept his head on a swivel so we wouldn’t get shot down. 

I know I learned best listening to the lectures., asking questions when confused and  sometimes just chatting with fellow classmates.