Angery people.

8valve said:

volvoclearinghouse said:

It could be said that people's expectations of a 3,000 sq foot house with granite countertops in a Suburban cul-de-sac with a 2 car garage and hardwood floors throughout contributes to anger when they realize all they can afford is a 1500 sq foot mid century rancher on a postage stamp with street parking.  

I blame HGTV for the anger.  

1500 ft postage stamp ranchers are pushing towards that 7th digit in some areas.  Baffles my mind how anybody buys into this market now days. 

It’s no longer about value, rather expectations of profit.  A home worth $150,000 for sale for $980,000 is silly unless there is a reasonable expectation that it will sell in excess of that in the near future.  

As long as demand exists. The market will adjust.  Besides it’s not just any land.  It’s land in a market that by itself is the 8th largest economy in the world!  It’s competing against land on the Mediterranean or other high demand areas. Not a wretched little 70 year old development.  

Enyar said:

volvoclearinghouse said:

In reply to frenchyd :

"“Treat people well” I honestly believe that’s the real secret to success.  I believe in Karma. That is a Christian version of Karma. Treat others well and good things seem to happen.  Not on a Quid pro Quo basis rather a good things happen to good people basis."

Agree with you.  And, I'll add, it's important to be kind to everybody.  From the guy who empties your waste baskets to the guy who signs your paycheck.  

Anecdote: Admin lady at work.  I always tell her good morning, engage her in meaningful conversation, and be friendly towards her.  Last week she tells me her boss told her to clean out this cubicle for a new employee.  She can't lift some of the boxes (She's in her 60's) and she asked me if I could help.  Not in any way, shape, or form my job description, but I helped her out- cleaned out the whole cube for her, in fact, right then.  She was so grateful, and told me so.  No real problem for me.  

Fast forward to this week.  My access badge expires soon.  I was dreading going around to the various offices and people and all that I had to deal with to get it taken care of.  I went over to ask the admin lady if she had the form I needed to take care of it.  She smiles and says, "I got you!".  Prints out everything I need, tells me what I need to do, and told me she'd call the badge office ahead of time and make me an appt. so I don't have to wait.  

Kindness.  It's contagious.  

Depends on your definition of success. Most of the wealthy/people in power that I work for are certainly NOT nice people. They take advantage of every situation, show no loyalty, are cheapskates and are constantly looking for ways to get ahead at the expense of others.

 

Their bank accounts certainly must appear to be successful but deep down I believe they are not happy with their lives.

While I couldn’t agree with you more regarding their bank accounts and happiness there comes a point where the greed of the few at the cost of the many needs to be stopped.  

They manage to divide us by playing one group against the other. Multiply  that times the number of subjects and you now control a great number of people willing to help you achieve your goals at their cost. 

Pick a subject matter.  Claim others threaten it and now you have loyal followers. If the opposition is weak strengthen it by a variety of ways. As a result they will lose track of just how unfair the advantage you have over them is.  You’re still focused on the subject matter.  

AngryCorvair said:

what makes me angry:  everything except getting a beejer.

what makes me not angry:  getting a beejer.

 

right now, i'm angry.

Well you’re going to have to get someone else to handle that for you.  

volvoclearinghouse said:

frenchyd said:

ProDarwin said:

frenchyd said:

Become a successful Doctor, Lawyer, computer security specialist etc. and you got a big deduction by owning an expensive home.  

What?  I think you mean get a big deduction by having an expensive mortgage.

 

I stand corrected.  The ultimate point is that homeownership is part of the pathway to wealth.  Plus a pathway to contentment as opposed to anger.  

Home ownership reduces crime, home ownership provides a means to personalize your environment.  A feeling of in charge of your domain   

No disagreement there.  However, I'd be curious as to whether low crime, personalized environment, and a feeling of being in charge increases linearly with the price of the home.  My gut feeling is that it does not.  In other words, once you've made the leap from "renter" to "home owner" (or, at least, "mortgage holder"), the actual price of the home is of little relevance.  I know lots of people who own homes worth less than the median price of homes in this country today.  Most of them are proud, accomplished people.  

In fact, being over-extended on a home probably can correlate to a lot of _negative_ societal effects.  We purposely bought a LOT less home than we could "afford", and we're happy for it.  

It could be said that people's expectations of a 3,000 sq foot house with granite countertops in a Suburban cul-de-sac with a 2 car garage and hardwood floors throughout contributes to anger when they realize all they can afford is a 1500 sq foot mid century rancher on a postage stamp with street parking.  

I blame HGTV for the anger.  

We agree, I don’t think home ownership requires a bigger better more expensive home to be happy.  Plenty are content with modest homes. 

Home ownership is merely one identifier.  Vacations, sending children off to college, a family wedding, Well,  there is an endless list. 

Anger never happens alone, it always accompanies another emotion. Sadness, fear, depression, vulnerability, inability to effect positive change, and a host of other painful emotions are the root behind the anger.

Overstimulation, divisiveness, and lack of regular social interaction all drive the anger to new levels, and many people don't have a positive outlet for getting that anger out. Instead it is directed at the easiest or most convenient target, which is often the "nice guy". 

I know that despite my lifetime of hard work, I will likely never be able to afford to retire. Sometimes it depresses me, and that starts a downward spiral of thinking which progresses to "nothing I do matters, it's all a crock of E36 M3" if I don't keep myself in check, and in that mindset I can lose my temper over the smallest things.  How do I keep myself in check? Mostly I stop thinking about it. I focus on what I do have and what I have accomplished, and I keep nudging toward my goals at a rate that would make a sloth feel quick. Perhaps I am in denial, ignorance is bliss and all that. Ignoring stuff isn't my point, but rather focusing on the positive as a way out of the painful emotion that is the root of anger. 

Cheers guys, and thanks for keeping this civil so far. 

I prefer to live life by another version of the phrase "half of the poulation is below average in intelligence, so think of how dumb the average person is and realize just how stupid 50% of the people really are!"

Very very few people are smart enough to get the better of just one or two other people in their lives.  To believe that every person you encounter is actively trying to screw you over is both self-destructive and egotistical as all hell.

 Most of the people you view as successful were simply  in the right place at the right time with the right tools and contacts to capitalise on that moment.  Some are putting up a good facade while they massively over extend their finances to keep that sheen of success glowing as long as they can.

 All the people you meet are far more concerned with themselves than they are with you.  Venial self-absorption is the norm, so don't be kind to others in the hope that it will magically "karma" around back to you.  Realize that being kind to others steps you out of the average of the "me me me" world and gives you novel experiences and these may well expose you to other avenues to success you may never have considered in the times of egotistical gotta keep up with the Joneses/Kardashians/Bill Gates of the world.

Thoughts from this thread:

1.  Treat people fairly and well, expect the same in turn, but read the fine print and count your change.

2.  If you know how much tax money you generate for various levels of government, don't ever divide that number into the price tag of a skating rink built on the front lawn of parliament as a stupid vanity project for Canda 150.  That way lies depression and madness.

3.  It is quite possible that if you and your spouse both work at reasonable jobs, you are way closer to the 1% than you think you are.  Use percentile instead of percentage, if I recall my high school math correctly.

4. Everybody is stupid, somewhere.  The trick is to recognize when you are the idiot.  My life has gotten better since I got over knowing I was the smartest person in the room.

5. Somebody has to pay for all the roads, bullets and medicine.  Might as well get used to kicking in.  Doesn't mean you can't bitch about skating rinks.

6: Blaming stuff on "They" is a fools mission.  You have control over "You", and none at all over "They".

dculberson said:

Henry Ford became rich after having a solid middle class upbringing. His parents started with very little, his father having immigrated to the US, but worked their way up to farm owners and that was a way to wealth in their day. Very few people do what Henry Ford did, but just as many do it today as did it then. He's an outlier and there always will be outliers. The vast majority of wealthy people have built it up over generations and generations, and even those outliers usually had a few generations of solid growth in assets behind them. Few people are born in favelas and end up even middle class.

I'm just not sure that class mobility is any tougher now than it ever has been. Get a state college degree in a practical field with financial aid and you can get a middle class job. It's then up to you to build assets - your house doesn't count as it's not an income producing asset. You prioritize what is important to you and if it's not providing a future passive income stream then you won't have one, amazingly enough. It sounds like your dad planned for retirement and passive income which led to having a financial cushion later in life. There's some luck to that, but also decades of hard work and dedication, no matter what era you are in. Plenty of people in the 50s ended up destitute because they spent every cent that passed through their hands.

So your contention is that Henry Ford was the same as Bill Gates?  Just an earlier version?  Interesting, I’ll try to some rethinking and see if I can arrive at the same conclusion. 

Henry Ford was an interesting man. His basic idea to replace a horse with a car seemed fundamentally flawed but worked brilliantly.  His early ideas of automating the assembly line weren’t exactly new. But sure made the car affordable.  Then with the labor shortage his strategy of doubling the daily wages to $5 a day meant he had the choice of the best most ambitious workers.  

His social ideas started out brilliantly too by providing homes for his workers he could demand sobriety and promptness but that led to attempts to control every aspect of their lives.  

That distracted him from paying attention to his competitors and ultimately a deep conflict between the workers and Henry Ford grew to the point where military Intervention was needed.  

Losing market share at the same time he lost the support and affection of his workers resulted in a feeling of paranoia. Ultimately to find enemies in the bankers who he was in debt to.  

Only his meeting with Hitler cheered him up and the two became fast friends. Fords plants in Germany  provided vehicles almost to the very end of the war. 

His disappointment  with his son Edsel’s  life style and choices meant he actually undermined Edsel’s assumption of power and the ability to successfully compete with Chevy and Plymouth.  

Although the 1932 Ford was considered the best styled and engineered car of that market. Today and for past decades it’s considered a real classic.  

STM317 said:

Ok, so can I read through the tea leaves a little here? OP is clearly fired up about tax issues related to homeownership. He's posted about his home several times in the past, and it sounds very impressive. He's also mentioned that he's sacrificed quite a bit to keep his home, and I think he's upset that some of the benefits he expected to be there are no longer present which makes all of his sacrifices more painful. Being upset is understandable, but I think pain can also teach us things. In this case the lesson might be that a large, expensive, opulent home might be more of an anchor around a person's neck than a strong financial foundation that OP seemed to think it was.

I’m sorry but your assumptions are wrong.  The tax changes won’t affect me because I’m below the upper limit. 

Plus I started this home not as an ego thing but to provide a multi generational alternative like the Walton family.  Actually it worked that way following the passing of my late wife.  

Since then I’ve got to do some artistic and creative things with it.  I like living here it’s a childhood dream come true. 

Financially it’s appreciating at a rate I haven’t seen since the early 2000’s not that I care.  My goal is to have my ashes spread around there and have one of my children or grandchildren inherit it.  

 Just because I’m OK  doesn’t mean things are right with the world.  Human value counts for less and less when numbers become a contest to see who shot the most. 

Is the world too crowded?  Maybe.  It’s approaching three times the population when I was born.  Is that the problem? Why we are angry?  Maybe a contributor.  Is it unjust opportunity?  Well,  that has caused rebellion and violence in the past. 

What’s your take?  What do you think?  

In reply to travellering :

Well said. 

EastCoastMojo said:

Anger never happens alone, it always accompanies another emotion. Sadness, fear, depression, vulnerability, inability to effect positive change, and a host of other painful emotions are the root behind the anger.

Overstimulation, divisiveness, and lack of regular social interaction all drive the anger to new levels, and many people don't have a positive outlet for getting that anger out. Instead it is directed at the easiest or most convenient target, which is often the "nice guy". 

I know that despite my lifetime of hard work, I will likely never be able to afford to retire. Sometimes it depresses me, and that starts a downward spiral of thinking which progresses to "nothing I do matters, it's all a crock of E36 M3" if I don't keep myself in check, and in that mindset I can lose my temper over the smallest things.  How do I keep myself in check? Mostly I stop thinking about it. I focus on what I do have and what I have accomplished, and I keep nudging toward my goals at a rate that would make a sloth feel quick. Perhaps I am in denial, ignorance is bliss and all that. Ignoring stuff isn't my point, but rather focusing on the positive as a way out of the painful emotion that is the root of anger. 

Cheers guys, and thanks for keeping this civil so far. 

Well said,  as for never being able to retire? 

The Amish have a slogan I’ve seen 

Celebrate Work. 

Think about it, you can’t work until you grow up and learn how to work.

Plus there will come a point in your life where you physically can’t work your body and maybe your mind won’t let you. 

The time in between is when we can contribute, create, love, share, and work. Enjoy it, it will end too soon. 

The home mortgage interest deduction makes me 'angry'. Its eventual application to individual homeowners was an unintentional consequence of the sudden and dramatic rise in personal debt following WWII, and is actually bad tax policy...It's a benefit only enjoyed by ~13% of the most well to do households, so doesn't meaningfully affect their ability to own a home, but still costs the country ~$100 Billion in lost revenue each year. It should have been eliminated long ago, but that's politics. 

In reply to frenchyd :

Yep. I've been celebrating work since I was 15. Dropped out to go to work full time to support my parents, lied about my age to gain employment. Luckily, I have celebrated most all my life. 

Duke said:

AngryCorvair said:

what makes me angry:  everything except getting a beejer.

what makes me not angry:  getting a beejer.

 

right now, i'm angry.

I think I'm glad to hear you're angry right now.

Someday I'm going to post "I'm not angry now", just for you.  However, I am currently still angry.

In reply to AngryCorvair :

You'll have to update your screen name so we will all know your BJ status. 

Driven5 said:

The home mortgage interest deduction makes me 'angry'. Its eventual application to individual homeowners was an unintentional consequence of the sudden and dramatic rise in personal debt following WWII, and is actually bad tax policy...It's a benefit only enjoyed by ~13% of the most well to do households, so doesn't meaningfully affect their ability to own a home, but still costs the country ~$100 Billion in lost revenue each year. It should have been eliminated long ago, but that's politics. 

Your numbers *may be* off.

I took a mortgage for about $200k, which bought me a nice enough 2500 sqft 4BR / 2.5BA in a nice enough neighborhood.  i pay about $4000 in mortgage interest each year.  I am allowed to deduct that from my income on my taxes.  I'm in the 25% bracket, so it "costs the country" $1000 per year.  If I am average, then there would have to be ONE HUNDRED MILLION OF ME to come up with your "100 Billion in lost revenue each year".  Given that the US population is about 300 million people, and a good chunk of that 300 million are children, and another good chunk are spouses of mortgage holders, and another good chunk are renters, and another good chunk have paid off their homes, well, I think you can probably see what I'm saying.

In reply to EastCoastMojo :

Still angry, but doing the dishes as I prepare to negotiate.  ;-)

AngryCorvair said:

Driven5 said:

The home mortgage interest deduction makes me 'angry'. Its eventual application to individual homeowners was an unintentional consequence of the sudden and dramatic rise in personal debt following WWII, and is actually bad tax policy...It's a benefit only enjoyed by ~13% of the most well to do households, so doesn't meaningfully affect their ability to own a home, but still costs the country ~$100 Billion in lost revenue each year. It should have been eliminated long ago, but that's politics. 

Your numbers *may be* off.

I took a mortgage for about $200k, which bought me a nice enough 2500 sqft 4BR / 2.5BA in a nice enough neighborhood.  i pay about $4000 in mortgage interest each year.  I am allowed to deduct that from my income on my taxes.  I'm in the 25% bracket, so it "costs the country" $1000 per year.  If I am average, then there would have to be ONE HUNDRED MILLION OF ME to come up with your "100 Billion in lost revenue each year".  Given that the US population is about 300 million people, and a good chunk of that 300 million are children, and another good chunk are spouses of mortgage holders, and another good chunk are renters, and another good chunk have paid off their homes, well, I think you can probably see what I'm saying.

 

Unfortunately I no longer have the source on hand to cite where the full $100 Billion number originated. Maybe it included mortgage interest deductions offered at the state level as well. I do however see that last year it was reported by the US government at a solid $77 Billion in Federal mortgage interest deductions taken. 

Now, if you benefit from itemizing, then congratulations. You are well above average....And yet obviously, in order to hit such numbers exclusively from  the rather small number of mortgage paying itemizers, the vast majority of that benefit must go to those with considerably larger mortgages than you or I. 

So yes, I can certainly see what you're saying...That's actually kind of the point. 

I always assume angry people were working on Audis.

Ovid_and_Flem said:

A few random thoughts.

Frenchy, blaming the 70,000 page tax code and $1,000 an hour lawyers is one of your oft repeated complaints.  I don't see it.  As you correctly point out only 25 or 30 pages of tax code applies to most tax payers.  The other 69,970 pages are aimed at the 1% bought and paid for by corporate lobbyists.  And they're able to pay those lawyers to shield their wealth. And it's pretty much clear 82% of current tax cuts go to the 1%.  And the huge deficit coming is gonna hurt the bottom 99%.  Chickens gonna come home to roost in next 5 or 10 years.

Home ownersiship not a wealth building investment.  Certainly not in today's world. Investments generate income.  A home is a liability with some intangible benefits.

The news we ingest today is not news.  Whether FOX OR MSNBC it's an echo chamber where people go to hide with people who share their own narrow views.  No room for civil discourse on real issues.  It's just propaganda and commentary.  A myopic circle jerk of narrow views.

 

I’m sorry if you find my pitiful examples unacceptable. My feeble attempt to put the discourse on a track I’m comfortable with.  

With regard the tax code, my favorite hobby in that respect is to create a fictional one that does things better( I think I have).  Do you have a better one? 

As to home ownership not being a investment?  Well it’s a matter of semantics.  Shelter is required, you could make a case for rudimentary such as a cave or tent. However locations like that seldom  appreciate significantly in ones lifetime.  

Realestate on the other hand inflate at or above the rate of inflation   Prime real estate on the other hand appreciates at multiples of inflation. 

As for media, news, etc. doesn’t one need to  doubt, always doubt?  

Happy to see that this thread is not locked. 

I think this topic, like most of life, is about perspective. Most middle class, heck I'd even say many people considered poor today have luxuries that were unheard of 50 years ago. If you want to live by middle class standards of 50 years ago, you could do so on a very modest wage. 

But that isn't enough for people today. They want to meet the new standard, the bar has been raised. They want bigger houses, nicer cars, more entertainment. They want to keep up with the Jones's. 

We've traded simpler lives with simpler expectations for ever increasing complexity and expectations. And there are tradeoffs involved. If you want to lead a simpler life, you can- but don't expect to afford all of the modern conveniences on a modest single wage. Think of how many bills the average person has today vs. 50 years ago. It all adds up. 

There are a couple obvious areas where costs increases have drastically outpaced means, at least in some areas. I don't think it's a coincidence that forces meant to increase access greatly contributed to increasing costs. Education, housing, and healthcare come to mind. 

I'll address housing, since it is a timely topic as I just bought a house. This is my second house. I bought my first house in 2003, right in the middle of the up slope of my market. I bought an entry level house, because it was what I could afford then. A very modest 3 bedroom, 1300sq. foot house, typical of a middle class home when it was built in the 70's. I could have bought a much more expensive house. They were giving away loans like candy back then, and most people I knew of similar means were skipping the starter house and going straight to their dream homes. Which became nightmares when the bubble burst. Meanwhile, I was happy with my starter home, no stress, no threat of foreclosure. 

Fast forward to today. Three kids later, the house is feeling a bit small. But since I've been living well below my means for the last few years, I'm ready for my dream house. Not because I deserve it, but because I've earned it. But I still bought within my means. Not what I could afford- I looked at some ridiculously nice houses, but they would have been too much of a compromise in my opinion. One step at a time.

frenchyd said:

STM317 said:

Ok, so can I read through the tea leaves a little here? OP is clearly fired up about tax issues related to homeownership. He's posted about his home several times in the past, and it sounds very impressive. He's also mentioned that he's sacrificed quite a bit to keep his home, and I think he's upset that some of the benefits he expected to be there are no longer present which makes all of his sacrifices more painful. Being upset is understandable, but I think pain can also teach us things. In this case the lesson might be that a large, expensive, opulent home might be more of an anchor around a person's neck than a strong financial foundation that OP seemed to think it was.

I’m sorry but your assumptions are wrong.  The tax changes won’t affect me because I’m below the upper limit. 

Plus I started this home not as an ego thing but to provide a multi generational alternative like the Walton family.  Actually it worked that way following the passing of my late wife.  

Since then I’ve got to do some artistic and creative things with it.  I like living here it’s a childhood dream come true. 

Financially it’s appreciating at a rate I haven’t seen since the early 2000’s not that I care.  My goal is to have my ashes spread around there and have one of my children or grandchildren inherit it.  

 Just because I’m OK  doesn’t mean things are right with the world.  Human value counts for less and less when numbers become a contest to see who shot the most. 

Is the world too crowded?  Maybe.  It’s approaching three times the population when I was born.  Is that the problem? Why we are angry?  Maybe a contributor.  Is it unjust opportunity?  Well,  that has caused rebellion and violence in the past. 

What’s your take?  What do you think?  

So this is what it feels like to be wrong huh?

Honestly, I'm glad to be wrong about this. The thought of you sacrificing a ton for a home that you're obviously very proud of, and then learning that it was just a giant anchor that added stress to your life is a pretty depressing idea.

The reasons for an angry society are basically the reasons that were discussed in the big mass shooting thread ad nauseam so they don't really need to be delved into here. But it all depends on perspective. Not enough religion. Too much religion. Not enough discipline. Too much discipline. Not enough hugs from Dad. Too many hugs from Dad. I could make an argument for any of those things contributing, and obviously they're contradictory, so it just depends on your individual perspective.

The crux of it is that angry people tend to let issues compound over time rather than letting it roll off of their back, forgetting it and moving on. This is psychological. Maybe even physiological for some. Stress kills, and a lot of people are easily stressed by nature. Adding stress from other things (finances, relationships, careers, medical issues, unrealistic expectations of an ideal life, etc) only makes that situation worse.

Boost_Crazy said:

I'll address housing, since it is a timely topic as I just bought a house. This is my second house. I bought my first house in 2003, right in the middle of the up slope of my market. I bought an entry level house, because it was what I could afford then. A very modest 3 bedroom, 1300sq. foot house, typical of a middle class home when it was built in the 70's. I could have bought a much more expensive house. They were giving away loans like candy back then, and most people I knew of similar means were skipping the starter house and going straight to their dream homes. Which became nightmares when the bubble burst. Meanwhile, I was happy with my starter home, no stress, no threat of foreclosure. 

Fast forward to today. Three kids later, the house is feeling a bit small. But since I've been living well below my means for the last few years, I'm ready for my dream house. Not because I deserve it, but because I've earned it. But I still bought within my means. Not what I could afford- I looked at some ridiculously nice houses, but they would have been too much of a compromise in my opinion. One step at a time.

 

I think you've passed The Marshmallow Test

Boost_Crazy said:

Happy to see that this thread is not locked. 

I think this topic, like most of life, is about perspective. Most middle class, heck I'd even say many people considered poor today have luxuries that were unheard of 50 years ago. If you want to live by middle class standards of 50 years ago, you could do so on a very modest wage. 

But that isn't enough for people today. They want to meet the new standard, the bar has been raised. They want bigger houses, nicer cars, more entertainment. They want to keep up with the Jones's.

This is what I call the "hidden value in technology" theory and I vehemently disagree with it every time one of the wealthy Silly Valley nerds I like to argue with on Slashdot brings it up. The theory basically contends that there is a large hidden value in new technologies from just the past few decades that is not accounted for anywhere, but should represent value to the end user. If you adjust the value of a '50s middle-class family's income and/or assets for inflation today, you'll find that they're still solidly middle-class amounts of money. You can buy a decent modern car, house etc for the same amounts of money.

Conversely if you actually do the math on how much you'd save by living '50s-style, it wouldn't save you a whole lot. A cell phone and Internet connection aren't massively expensive (perhaps comparable to a nice watch and a big ol' wooden radio with vacuum tubes?), an old black and white TV probably costs more up front adjusted for inflation and certainly guzzles far more electricity, and a '50s car is thirsty for gas and only has a couple thousand bucks less of equipment in it.

Interesting that so much focus on anger has to do with status and wealth.  

There's more to it than that.  Otherwise, people who have both would not be angry with each other, just like people who don't would not be angry with each other.

Sure, it's a factor.  But not the only one.