Angery people.

GameboyRMH said:

Boost_Crazy said:

Happy to see that this thread is not locked. 

I think this topic, like most of life, is about perspective. Most middle class, heck I'd even say many people considered poor today have luxuries that were unheard of 50 years ago. If you want to live by middle class standards of 50 years ago, you could do so on a very modest wage. 

But that isn't enough for people today. They want to meet the new standard, the bar has been raised. They want bigger houses, nicer cars, more entertainment. They want to keep up with the Jones's.

This is what I call the "hidden value in technology" theory and I vehemently disagree with it every time one of the wealthy Silly Valley nerds I like to argue with on Slashdot brings it up. The theory basically contends that there is a large hidden value in new technologies from just the past few decades that is not accounted for anywhere, but should represent value to the end user. If you adjust the value of a '50s middle-class family's income and/or assets for inflation today, you'll find that they're still solidly middle-class amounts of money. You can buy a decent modern car, house etc for the same amounts of money.

Conversely if you actually do the math on how much you'd save by living '50s-style, it wouldn't save you a whole lot. A cell phone and Internet connection aren't massively expensive (perhaps comparable to a nice watch and a big ol' wooden radio with vacuum tubes?), an old black and white TV probably costs more up front adjusted for inflation and certainly guzzles far more electricity, and a '50s car is thirsty for gas and only has a couple thousand bucks less of equipment in it.

it is like the saying that your typical middle class american lives better than a medieval king, aside from being able to choose to go to war with your neighbors or not.

I am amazed that this thread continues without degrading and being locked. Here's my two cents. The absolute only thing that you have any control over and responsibility for are your own emotions and reactions to events. Everyone experiences loss and any other life event you can imagine.  How you choose to react is up to you. Once you recognize how common and shared the human experience is , life is easier.

In reply to STM317 :

You could be right about the cause of anger. My feeling is the country seems to be going down a path where more and more people are left behind with no chance of future happiness.  In short they’ve given up hope.  

Throughout time people get left behind and while many deal with disappointment there are those who can’t. 

The total random nature of the people behind these shootings tells me the disenfranchised haven’t yet found a leader. When they do  there will be bloodshed. 

Tangentially related.

We rented "Downsizing" last night.  Interesting movie about consumption and happiness.  If you haven't seen it I recommend you spend the buck at Redbox and watch.

Spoiler alert, stuff doesn't make you happy.  Being a good person and appreciating the world around you does. 

Also tangentially related, every time I read "Angery" I think of this:

(The movie was actually quite funny)

MadScientistMatt said:

frenchyd said:

We will simply have to disagree about home ownership.  You can use the equity in your home to fund a start up. You can use stability in your home to increase your credit rating. Homeownership does reduce crime as you could potentially lose more than the crime can produce.  

Home ownership sets a fixed cost that becomes easier to live with as inflation increases other costs. Home ownership does not need to end in a sale. You can rent your home out and there are companies that specialize in providing you with assistance such as emergency maintenance, qualifying rental candidates,  and re-renting to your next tenant. 

Home ownership puts you on the inflation elevator not as a victim of inflation.  Rent closely follows inflation and demand. Demand increases as home ownership is reduced.  

We may agree a bit more than you think on the topic of home ownership - what annoys me is the mentality that leads someone to spend more than they should on a home because "it's an investment" or "a tool to build wealth," instead of looking at "What is the most cost effective way to spend my money on a place to live at my desired standard of living?" And many of the benefits can be realized just as easily with an inexpensive home as an expensive one, within reason.

Rental properties are a different category - I was mentioning specifically a home bought to live in. They are an investment, and call for a different approach.

I guess I’m just weird.  My approach towards a home has nearly nothing to do with accounting and everything to do with feelings.  I grew up happy on this lake. So I wanted to live here.  I felt safe and secure in old barns with their massive Timbers so I built a home like one.  

When I started building it I didn’t have a budget.  Things would cost whatever they cost.  I trusted myself not to waste money on frivolous or trendy. I was an aggressive shopper  capable of recognizing a great deal and patient enough not to simply buy what was offered and pay what was asked.  

I let my heart rule my wallet. Not my wallet in command of my heart. 

Did I make mistakes? Sure,  but the person who never makes a mistake is someone who never tries beyond his reach. On the other hand I never had to tear something down and start over. 

With hind-site I would do a few things different. But there is nothing I’m embarrassed by. 

I’m glad things worked out for me and can justify myself economically but that’s not my top priority.  I raced Vintage cars not because I would win or make money but because my heart wanted to. In the end an accountant would say I showed a profit.  Yet it’s not about profit. It’s the feeling you get chasing your competitor and diving inside him to take the lead. ( even if it’s just between you two) 

Yet if none of that happened I’d still do it all over again.  

Driven5 said:

The home mortgage interest deduction makes me 'angry'. Its eventual application to individual homeowners was an unintentional consequence of the sudden and dramatic rise in personal debt following WWII, and is actually bad tax policy...It's a benefit only enjoyed by ~13% of the most well to do households, so doesn't meaningfully affect their ability to own a home, but still costs the country ~$100 Billion in lost revenue each year. It should have been eliminated long ago, but that's politics. 

My Dad fought in WW2 and came home to the GI bill  With nothing down he bought his first house and started raising a family in it.  I remember the day he called us all together to announce that the check he was writing for the first time applied more to the principle of the loan than the interest.  By that time I was about 10 and it was a real learning moment to find out about interest payments.  

He told me that it was worth it though and explained taxes to me.  In one evening I saw things through an adult perspective rather than a kids.  

Look at home ownership in the decade before WW2 and then the decade after. Consider all the good that ownership does compared to renting.  

Society wins when people own the place they live rather than are mere occupants of it.  

Besides that is a benefit across the economic spectrum. Oil depreciation allowance and millions of other tax deductions only apply to an extremely select group. And they make 100 billion look like chump change!   

lateapexer said:

I am amazed that this thread continues without degrading and being locked. Here's my two cents. The absolute only thing that you have any control over and responsibility for are your own emotions and reactions to events. Everyone experiences loss and any other life event you can imagine.  How you choose to react is up to you. Once you recognize how common and shared the human experience is , life is easier.

 

Your post is saying things cannot be changed, learn to live with it.  

Except things do change. We are no longer ruled by an overseas King. Slaves are no longer legal tender to be bought and sold.  Everyone has the right to vote.  The Beatles are no longer making records.  Etc.  

It’s never easy, nothing worth while ever is but change is going to happen. The only question left is will change occur peacefully or with violence? 

alfadriver said:

Interesting that so much focus on anger has to do with status and wealth.  

There's more to it than that.  Otherwise, people who have both would not be angry with each other, just like people who don't would not be angry with each other.

Sure, it's a factor.  But not the only one.

True.  By many measures, I have a fair amount of wealth. Status is debatable, but also not a great concern to me. As generally an introvert, I prefer to fly under the radar for the most part.  That said, while I would not consider myself particularly angry about my position in life, a sense of happiness has proved somewhat elusive. I no longer feel any incentive to continue the "pursuit" of happiness.  And I have certainly fallen into a cynical sense of "why bother?". 

At the same time, it's easy to feel lethargic when for the most part, I don't have to worry much about a roof over my head or putting food on my table. I think that is something that gets lost in these discussions. I get the impression just about everyone on this forum is somewhat insulated from a lot of average Americans who really do have concerns about where to live and what to eat.  Staring at an empty refrigerator when all you hear on the news is how "wonderful" the economy is doing. That is the sort of thing that breeds fear and anger.

Post had nothing to do with not wanting change or accepting things the way they are. Everything to do with understanding that your reactions  to whatever happens in your life is something that is in your control and not dictated by your circumstances.

lateapexer said:

...Everything to do with understanding that your reactions  to whatever happens in your life is something that is in your control and not dictated by your circumstances.

Nail, meet head.

Happiness is a choice. 

It comes from within. There isn't a soul in the world that can provide it for you. Long term, there isn't a soul that can take it from you. When you wake up in the morning, choose to be happy. 

Toyman01 said:

lateapexer said:

...Everything to do with understanding that your reactions  to whatever happens in your life is something that is in your control and not dictated by your circumstances.

Nail, meet head.

Happiness is a choice. 

It comes from within. There isn't a soul in the world that can provide it for you. Long term, there isn't a soul that can take it from you. When you wake up in the morning, choose to be happy. 

Not everyone can do that. Those who lack agency are probably often the 'Angery' people.

"The sense of agency (SA), or sense of control, is the subjective awareness of initiating, executing, and controlling one's own volitional actions in the world. It is the pre-reflective awareness or implicit sense that it is I who is executing bodily movement(s) or thinking thoughts."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sense_of_agency

While I work on cars, I often listen to audiobooks. My most recent was "The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma" (Learning to cope with a friend with TBI and PTSD). Severe trauma and living in a world of chronic mental trauma (such as growing up with an abusive care-taker) often robs a soul of it's sense of agency. These people literally do not have the sense that they have any control of their circumstances. It is a significant part of the population - I've read as high as 1/4. They can learn otherwise, but often don't recognize that they can or should feel otherwise.

A valid point. Most of my career has been spent working to help people recognize that they have some say as to what happens in their lives. Sometimes with success most often only in a limited way.

AAZCD said:

Toyman01 said:

lateapexer said:

...Everything to do with understanding that your reactions  to whatever happens in your life is something that is in your control and not dictated by your circumstances.

Nail, meet head.

Happiness is a choice. 

It comes from within. There isn't a soul in the world that can provide it for you. Long term, there isn't a soul that can take it from you. When you wake up in the morning, choose to be happy. 

 They can learn otherwise, but often don't recognize that they can or should feel otherwise.

Or don't have the resources to get help. 

Toyman01 said:

lateapexer said:

...Everything to do with understanding that your reactions  to whatever happens in your life is something that is in your control and not dictated by your circumstances.

Nail, meet head.

Happiness is a choice. 

It comes from within. There isn't a soul in the world that can provide it for you. Long term, there isn't a soul that can take it from you. When you wake up in the morning, choose to be happy. 

Not always. For some happiness seems out of reach no matter how hard they try or want it.  That struggle is why some who appear to have everything sometimes die alone by their own hand. The light at the end of the tunnel unexpectedly turns into a train and they can't take it anymore.

Of course there are extremes and exceptions, but in general the principle remains the same. You have the ability to be in charge of your emotional health. That doesn't mean that there isn't work involved nor does it mean that you can do it alone. There is always help available, but you have to recognize that you need it and then be willing to accept it.

frenchyd said:

Driven5 said:

The home mortgage interest deduction makes me 'angry'. Its eventual application to individual homeowners was an unintentional consequence of the sudden and dramatic rise in personal debt following WWII, and is actually bad tax policy...It's a benefit only enjoyed by ~13% of the most well to do households, so doesn't meaningfully affect their ability to own a home, but still costs the country ~$100 Billion in lost revenue each year. It should have been eliminated long ago, but that's politics. 

My Dad fought in WW2 and came home to the GI bill  With nothing down he bought his first house and started raising a family in it.  I remember the day he called us all together to announce that the check he was writing for the first time applied more to the principle of the loan than the interest.  By that time I was about 10 and it was a real learning moment to find out about interest payments.  

He told me that it was worth it though and explained taxes to me.  In one evening I saw things through an adult perspective rather than a kids.  

Look at home ownership in the decade before WW2 and then the decade after. Consider all the good that ownership does compared to renting.  

Society wins when people own the place they live rather than are mere occupants of it.  

Besides that is a benefit across the economic spectrum. Oil depreciation allowance and millions of other tax deductions only apply to an extremely select group. And they make 100 billion look like chump change!   

A great set of beliefs, but none of which changes that the data points directly to the home mortgage interest deduction specifically not delivering on the bill of goods it has been sold to us as.  I'm not going to argue against the economic and/or societal benefits of expanding homeownership potentially being well worth a $100 Billion per year price tag, or a program that would do so...However, I am more than happy to continue arguing against a program that costs as much but is statistically not doing so. 

EastCoastMojo said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Yep. I've been celebrating work since I was 15. Dropped out to go to work full time to support my parents, lied about my age to gain employment. Luckily, I have celebrated most all my life. 

I started work at age 5. Selling door to door.  Seeds and magazine subscriptions. I quickly earned a real English racer ( bike) that was 1954 when such things were extremely rare.  Later I sold my neighbors kids to mow lawns, rake leaves, pull dandelions, shovel snow etc. We split the money! Yes sometimes kids mowed their own lawn etc and I got half of it!  Parents actually liked the idea!  

Ive been fiscally conservative all my life  I put away a nice IRA 401k and company retirement. 2008 happened and in a few years I’d used up my company retirement and cashed the IRA.   What gets lost is the penalties 50% for early withdrawal plus you pay 30% taxes on what is left to withdraw.  By the time I’d finally got a job I’d burned through a lifetime of savings. 

So I work as a school bus driver. Start at 5:00 am and get home at 6:30pm plus all the charter time I can get. 

Quite a change from flying in a corporate jet. 

My point is you never know.  Life doesn’t go according to plan. 

In reply to frenchyd :

While certainly admirable, working side jobs to buy the things you want is vastly different from working full time so that your family does not become homeless. I am certain that both of us learned financial responsibility at a younger age than those kids who were handed everything on a platter, and being responsible brings it's own joys in life, no doubt.

I don't carry any bitterness about my circimstances, and I know many that had it much worse than I. Would I be happier if I had a safety net that consisted of a college education or retirement savings, maybe. I know that I would not get stressed as easily if I knew that I had some contingencies to fall back on. We live paycheck to paycheck, and live very modestly. I sock away the small portion that I can for our emergency fund, and then emergencies happen that use those funds. Right now I do not have the means to afford healthcare, and I currently make more income than I ever have before. (Not an invitation to turn this into a healthcare debate, just one of the circimstances that adds to my daily stress).

It's challenging to stay positive in the face of adversity. Not all of us are up to the task, and even fewer know how to seek help or that they even need it. I accept that my future is not fixed, but I also accept the very likely possibility that I will work until I die. C'est la vie. I will be very happy if I am wrong. 

Driven5 said:

frenchyd said:

Driven5 said:

The home mortgage interest deduction makes me 'angry'. Its eventual application to individual homeowners was an unintentional consequence of the sudden and dramatic rise in personal debt following WWII, and is actually bad tax policy...It's a benefit only enjoyed by ~13% of the most well to do households, so doesn't meaningfully affect their ability to own a home, but still costs the country ~$100 Billion in lost revenue each year. It should have been eliminated long ago, but that's politics. 

My Dad fought in WW2 and came home to the GI bill  With nothing down he bought his first house and started raising a family in it.  I remember the day he called us all together to announce that the check he was writing for the first time applied more to the principle of the loan than the interest.  By that time I was about 10 and it was a real learning moment to find out about interest payments.  

He told me that it was worth it though and explained taxes to me.  In one evening I saw things through an adult perspective rather than a kids.  

Look at home ownership in the decade before WW2 and then the decade after. Consider all the good that ownership does compared to renting.  

Society wins when people own the place they live rather than are mere occupants of it.  

Besides that is a benefit across the economic spectrum. Oil depreciation allowance and millions of other tax deductions only apply to an extremely select group. And they make 100 billion look like chump change!   

A great set of beliefs, but none of which changes that the data points directly to the home mortgage interest deduction specifically not delivering on the bill of goods it has been sold to us as.  I'm not going to argue against the economic and/or societal benefits of expanding homeownership potentially being well worth a $100 Billion per year price tag, or a program that would do so...However, I am more than happy to continue arguing against a program that costs as much but has statistically proven to not do so. 

Why pick on home mortgage deduction?  Why not oil depletion or any of the corporate deductions?   What is the societal benefit of having a hunting lodge or Hawaiian corporate retreat?  Private jets are another stumper.   Sure some business gets done. But CEO’s use them for all sorts of personal things and call it business. They are used to curry favor on the board and take the wife for a NewYork shopping trip.  

My boss used his to fly wood to his beach front place in Southern California. ( yeh, you had to be here to see that). 

I’ll tell you what, you tear up the 77,000+ pages in the tax code and eliminate legal precedent deduction and I’ll agree to tear up the Mortgage deduction. 

In reply to frenchyd :

I'm picking on it because it was explicitly brought up as part of the pathway to homeownership, and subsequently wealth and contentment, when it's actually not.

EastCoastMojo said:

In reply to frenchyd :

While certainly admirable, working side jobs to buy the things you want is vastly different from working full time so that your family does not become homeless. I am certain that both of us learned financial responsibility at a younger age than those kids who were handed everything on a platter, and being responsible brings it's own joys in life, no doubt.

I don't carry any bitterness about my circimstances, and I know many that had it much worse than I. Would I be happier if I had a safety net that consisted of a college education or retirement savings, maybe. I know that I would not get stressed as easily if I knew that I had some contingencies to fall back on. We live paycheck to paycheck, and live very modestly. I sock away the small portion that I can for our emergency fund, and then emergencies happen that use those funds. Right now I do not have the means to afford healthcare, and I currently make more income than I ever have before. (Not an invitation to turn this into a healthcare debate, just one of the circimstances that adds to my daily stress).

It's challenging to stay positive in the face of adversity. Not all of us are up to the task, and even fewer know how to seek help or that they even need it. I accept that my future is not fixed, but I also accept the very likely possibility that I will work until I die. C'est la vie. I will be very happy if I am wrong. 

I started this post for people just like you who are living paycheck to paycheck and-cant get ahead.   There are too many just like yourself.   While the 1% pay silly prices for paintings just so they can brag that they did. 

The tax code makes this possible. Politicians who owe their job to those 1%. Write tax benefits for those 1% and then cut critical funding so you can’t afford health care.  

Most civilized countries have national health care and their citizens are healthier than the average American. Yet the premiums collected in the form of taxes are less than 1/2 of what we pay. 

Most countries have many more paid holidays and vacation time than we have. Plus workers work shorter hours than Americans.  

Anerica is one of only two countries that have no form of maternity leave. Mothers in America are expected to have the baby and put it in day care so she can get right back to work.  

Day care in America amounts to a house payment while most countries give parents at least 6 months paid leave. Then child care is often subsidized. 

No pay raises in 40 years?  Working people haven’t had a pay raise ( adjusted for inflation ) since  the 1970’s  

We, blue collar workers, don’t own stock yet the stock markets has increased by how much since the 1970’s?  

It's a funny old world.  I sign my final divorce agreement on Monday, and even though I am going to be paying a not insignificant amount of money every month until August of 2025 when I hit 65, I am feeling better.  I am back in control of life, as much as anyone ever can be, so, Good.  It's like making that phone call or having the meeting that you dread- Its almost never as bad as you think it will be, and even if it's worse, at least you know what is going on, and can move ahead.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

Is it time to re-examine our marriage laws?