http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/bbdp/ford-wont-sell-65-mpg-fiesta-in-us/164929
maybee Ford should fire thier entire US managment team and let the euro managment take over completly. I have heard that the only place that Ford has been losing money is in north america, all the other regions has been consistantly profitable, I don't know if it is true, but if it is I can see why.
And yet, at the very same time, talk is being floated regarding a massive government bailout of the big 3.
I have a hard time believing that the American public still has such a huge aversion to diesel. The reason diesel cars are such a small percentage of the American driving population is because the damn things haven't been available here to speak of. Really, other than a VW, what inexpensive diesel options have there been over the past ten years? Exactly none.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121936530892762135.html?mod=opinion_main_review_and_outlooks
For a long time I thought of buying a diesel, but with the higher vehicle cost and the higher price of diesel I don't think it's such a good deal anymore.
No E36 M3 people wouldn't spend $25K on it. It's a $13K car. Sell it for $13K and you won't be able to make enough.
I saw a 70's or early 80's Toyota Truck with a Diesel in it at the gas station a few months ago. He got over 40MPG, but had to call his shots in traffic.
With folks buying SUVs...like their lives depended on it, and the U.S. Government "tightening the screws" on the allowable emissions from diesel vehicles....why would ANY manufacturer offer a SMALL, diesel powered car in this country.
Don't blame FoMoCo for not offering this car here, the U.S. government is as much if not more to blame, and surely so are Ford's customers who have made the Explorer and Escape their favorite vehicle picks....along with the F-150.
BTW, how well do you think Honda Fits would sell, if they cost SUBSTANTIALLY MORE than a Civic or even a base level Accord?
Great car but no WAY would it sell for 27K.
Exactly which 50mpg VW Polo is sold in the US? With a diesel?
First of all, to make a small diesel emissions legal in the US is very expensive. Second, diesel is still $1/gal more than gas. Add the two together, and you find a very, very small part of pie to make any money on.
Honda does not bring thier small diesel, neither Toyota, Nissan, or pretty much anyone outside of VW and Mercedes. And we ARE looking at Tier 3 emissions from the EPA plus LEV III from California.
So how is it all Ford's fault?
If you are going to avoid a Ford dealer due to this, you pretty much have to give up getting a small car from anyone.
Eric
the golf tdi.
and it probably gets 50miles per imperial gallon, not US gallon
According to TDI owners, they get around 42 city, 50 highway, in US gallons. Not sure what the EPA estimates are. I wonder if this is going to make it over here? http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/03/revealed-volksw.html
alfadriver has it right.. but light duty diesels are coming... They'll come to the light duty truck market first.. (aside from Hondas/Acura's TSX) The TSX is coming soon, we'll see what happens then.
There are plenty of diesel vehicles for the US in the works, the big issue is that the US regs require special engines/equip to meet emissions here. So.. They have a whole lotta testing to do.
HappyAndy wrote: http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/bbdp/ford-wont-sell-65-mpg-fiesta-in-us/164929 maybee Ford should fire thier entire US managment team and let the euro managment take over completly...
They absolutely should.
As for diesels becoming popular here, in my opinion as soon as the luxury makers start offering them they will start to catch on. I think Mercedes already does offer diesel engines in about 4 of their cars and that number is going to go up. I think also BMW is going to offer diesels. I've also heard a rumor that Mini will offer a diesel option, if they do I'm trading in my current Mini for a diesel one.
Ignorant hit the nail on the head, the EPA nazis have made it extremely difficult for diesels to be mainstream here, but that is now starting to very slowly change. With gas prices what they are (and they're not going to ever go back down), people want a reliable, fuel efficient car (30mpg city or better is fuel efficient in my opinion) and Ford doesn't make one domestically. None of the big 3 do.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/09/09/paris-preview-volvo-ultra-efficient-diesel-drive-trio/
76 MPG Volvo's we won't get
Strizzo wrote: the golf tdi. and it probably gets 50miles per imperial gallon, not US gallon
Fiesta = Polo. You'll see the gas Fiesta before the polo, I think.
As for the "EPA Nazis"- do note how much better our air quality is vs. Europe. And then I've read a few theories that some of the quicekning of glacier melting is due to soot from Europe.
No, I'm very happy with the "EPA Nazis" in how our cars are cleaner in terms of chemicals that are harmful to both humans and plants/animals in a local area.
Europes rules are slanted toward Diesel, ours are not. Started with California's rules, BTW- they have been a lot more strict with NOx than EPA has- but that is changing as we find more about the bad effects of NOx emissions.
Eric
Redhornet wrote:HappyAndy wrote: http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/bbdp/ford-wont-sell-65-mpg-fiesta-in-us/164929 maybee Ford should fire thier entire US managment team and let the euro managment take over completly...They absolutely should. As for diesels becoming popular here, in my opinion as soon as the luxury makers start offering them they will start to catch on. I think Mercedes already does offer diesel engines in about 4 of their cars and that number is going to go up. I think also BMW is going to offer diesels. I've also heard a rumor that Mini will offer a diesel option, if they do I'm trading in my current Mini for a diesel one. Ignorant hit the nail on the head, the EPA nazis have made it extremely difficult for diesels to be mainstream here, but that is now starting to very slowly change. With gas prices what they are (and they're not going to ever go back down), people want a reliable, fuel efficient car (30mpg city or better is fuel efficient in my opinion) and Ford doesn't make one domestically. None of the big 3 do.
Focus? It's better than 30mpg. Fiesta is coming.
And since when do Honda and Toyota sell a diesel in the US for a small car?
Seems like it's easy to blame Detroit when it's really EVERYONE.
E-
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/21/acura-tsx-gets-diesel-power-next-year/
that's the first honda to be stateside with a diesel..
coming soon.
I have driven the new Jetta diesel, I do not see a premium over the gas car. If both were the same cost then I would consider it as an option.
It gets 25% better fuel economy and the fuel costs 25% more...
alfadriver wrote: Focus? It's better than 30mpg. Fiesta is coming. And since when do Honda and Toyota sell a diesel in the US for a small car? Seems like it's easy to blame Detroit when it's really EVERYONE. E-
Ok, I'll give you the Focus, which is actually a car I like. I read recently in Autoweek that Honda is planning to offer diesels in the Civic and Accord by 2010, I think, I'll have to look for the article. I don't know what Toyota's plans are. However, those 2 haven't needed to go the diesel route in the past, they've had gas engines that were superb (the gen 2 CRX's got between 40 to 50mpg mixed and corollas used to get at least 35mpg mixed). I'm not specifically blaming Detroit for a lack of diesel cars, it's the fact that no car company has been willing to spend the money on R&D to improve diesels to comply with our very strict air quality laws. With modern technology though things have changed a lot. Mercedes has really improved the diesel recently and I'm hoping the trend takes hold with other manufacturers.
Redhornet wrote: I'm not specifically blaming Detroit for a lack of diesel cars, it's the fact that no car company has been willing to spend the money on R&D to improve diesels to comply with our very strict air quality laws. With modern technology though things have changed a lot. Mercedes has really improved the diesel recently and I'm hoping the trend takes hold with other manufacturers.
LOL!!! You have no idea how many cubic dollars are being spent to solve the diesel problem. Mercedes can do the technology as they have high priced cars, and their customers can absorb it.
The problem with diesels is that they are high mileage cars, which for most American consumers means cheap. Which is a double whammy for diesel- first the engine is at LEAST twice as expensive, so for a 4 cyl engine, add $500-1000 just to make it. Then the aftertreatment is at the moment 3-4x as much (roughly a similar increase). You see that the Fiesta diesel is $25k. When the market will bear it at probably $10k less.
Modern technology can not break laws of physics. NOx is still produced in a manner that it's VERY hard to convert it in a catalyst. Electronics do not solve chemistry problems.
The current state of the art is Urea injection, and it had to go through many loops to make sure that every consumer will replace the depleated urea. Mercedes can do it since most of their customers will go to the dealer to do the oil change. Take your Fiesta to a quickie oil change, and see if they will top up your urea.
Honda claims that they can do it without. I'm looking forward to seeing how.
All I can say is . when I go to the Caribbean islands, half the cars and ALL the trucks are diesel. Has to be a reason for that. From what I've been told, it's very hard to sell a gas vehicle there.
alfadriver wrote: Honda claims that they can do it without. I'm looking forward to seeing how.
urea distibution is currently being hashed out.. I'll bet you'll see it at gas stations soon... http://www.etrucker.com/apps/news/article.asp?id=67833 <-- lots of dollars to be made soon.. It'll be at truck stops for truckers.
as for honda.. They are doing without urea. From what I've read their NOx trap is two stage. The first stage generates urea from the exhaust(I dunno how). then the second stage catalyzes and poof..
Urea? Gee whiz.
"All I can say is...when I go to the Caribbean islands, half the cars and ALL the trucks are diesel. Has to be a reason for that."
Yes, there is a reason for that. The U.S. currently has THE toughest pollution laws IN THE WORLD. These laws were recently changed so that diesel vehicles now have to meet the same, or nearly the same emissions levels as gasoline engines do. In the not so distant past...like a year and a half ago, diesel powered cars and trucks had minimal regulation of their tailpipe emissions. A huge impediment to "clean" diesels that would pass these tougher/stricter regs was....SURPRIZE, the oil companies and refineries. A reason why diesel now cost more than regular gas per gallon is the added refining needed to reduce or nearly eliminate sulfur from diesel fuels. If you've been behind a nearly new diesel powered truck lately, you will have noticed reduced soot output and MUCH less odor.
As has been stated on this topic already, most Americans are too short-sighted/cheap, to pay the higher cost of a diesel engine when purchasing a new car. The new car loans may be for 6 or 7 years, but folks are still trading way before that...so no incentive to go diesel. Engineering a car for both gas and diesel engines, costs money. M-B and Toyota have the cash, the domestic companies? No.
BTW, if Ford plans to sell the Fiesta with a gas engine for about $16K. I would imagine a diesel powered Fiesta would cost less than $18k....I'm just not so sure (and I imagine FoMoCo isn't either) that there is a market for this engine...yet.
Tim Baxter wrote: Urea? Gee whiz.
Isn't diesel also taxed differently (usually at a higher rate) than gasoline?
But yeah, basically diesel engines cost more to produce, and diesel fuel costs more to buy. You need a lot of miles and years to make up the difference in cost by way of the better mpg.
In Europe it works because gasoline and diesel are both way more expensive. The car may cost 15% more, but diesel fuel is only 5% more, shortening the pay-off period.
M-B new diesels are the E36 M3. My uncle has the twin-turbo version of the E class. 6-speed manual transmission. Around the city (he's in Edinburgh, Scotland), you wouldn't know it was a diesel.
You'll need to log in to post.
