Any chance for a reasonable discussion about firearms laws? (v.2023, Dialectic Bubbaloo)

In which we start another thread (to avoid floundering the boomstick thread or dredging up the 47-page thread from almost exactly one year ago) and continue a respectful, solution-oriented, and introspective discussion about firearms laws and regulations.

Link to the 2022 gun discussion thread: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/off-topic-discussion/any-chance-for-a-reasonable-discussion-about-guns/195385/page1/

I know full well that this is not going to remain limited to just firearms laws, and I'm likely to be the first one to go off that limited topic.

In no way should anything posted here possibly be considered as legal advice.  Even if someone does happen to be a lawyer IRL, and possibly not even if it is content from a .gov resource or website.  Also, the use of hyperbole may not be explicitly indicated as such.  And finally, anyone who uses the phrase "common sense" without ironic intent should expect harsh criticism.

No person or group has a complete monopoly on being stupid; no person or group is completely immune to being stupid. Everyone is wrong.  Or more usefully, everyone can do better.

Uh...

I would hope so, but...

I like guns. 

Four posts in and it looks like no

I will add that if guns were the problem, this would have been an issue hundreds of years ago.  Clearly, it is something else.

I hope so, but honestly not exactly sure of the purpose. I don't know what could be said that wasn't said in the old thread, and the boomstick thread has been a great place for sharing information relating to operation, options, and general questions regarding hardware.

As for the current hoopla, in short language, the BATF ruled (in 2013 iirc) that pistol braces were ok, then just recently decided they were not, and now are offering the choices of 1-destroy the thing, 2-register the thing, 3- be a felon. There are current lawsuits before the 5th district courts I think, but I'm not educated enough to pretend to understand it all. 

My opinion is that if a law is demonstrably helpful, then fine, and if it doesn't make any differences, abolish said law. For example, a barrel shorter than 16" was ruled to be a controlled device requiring a tax stamp, yet there is a suspicious lack of evidence that such weapons are used disproportionately in any crime, and so I think the rule should be scrapped. Among others. 
The only other point I'll make before sitting back and watching, is that all the laws in the world are exactly useless without enforcement. Leniency rewards misbehavior. Most of the crime occurs at the hands of convicted felons who are still in the streets, usually over bad deals involving other illegal substances. None of those laws seem to deter bad guys from being bad. 

johndej said:

A gun is a tool that is designed to carry out the function of ending a life.

As a self described redneck liberal my first reaction is that you're right.  But then I thought about my history with guns.  I've never taken any life with any of mine in the 30ish years that I've owned them.  What I love about guns is the mechanical perfection of them.  I love taking them apart and seeing how they fit together perfectly.  I love to think about all the engineering that went into them.  The idea that I can take my Remington 700 SPS and put a 1/3 inch hole inside a 3 inch circle at 300 plus meters amazes me.  Just my two cents.

johndej said:

A gun is a tool that is designed to carry out the function of ending a life.

Which can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how/when it's used.

I think most all will agree with the above two (obviously very general) statements.

Can we promise that after 24 hours this thread will just four people yelling the same tired arguments at each other for 20 plus pages? Because if not I'm not interested. 

More guns of all shapes and sizes in the hands of law-abiding citizens.

I'll say it again- I'm surprised that extreme liberalist groups in the USA can't see the similarities between the war on drugs and their shortsighted war on guns. But I guess their goal is to create more fervent ideologues with simple-minded promises, not promote rational thought.

johndej said:

A gun is a tool that is designed to carry out the function of ending a life.

A tool for firing a bullet where its aimed. Some gun enthusiasts never venture farther than a paper target.

If you can ski, you might even make it to the Olympics .

Toebra said:

I will add that if guns were the problem, this would have been an issue hundreds of years ago.  Clearly, it is something else.

https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1848971668

List of countries by guns and homicide - Wikipedia then sort by rate. 

Note that this is homicides, not total gun deaths.  Add in suicides by firearms, and numbers look way worse.  All gun deaths are tragic, but the ratios of homicides vs. suicides shows that there is a large mental health component of gun deaths.  

Stepping away from the gun debate the mental health problem keeps getting swept under the rug.  It is a political mine field that no one is willing to step in. 
 

It would take hundreds of  billions of dollars and a multi generational commitment and massive social change with respect to the publics attitude towards mental health for change to occur. 

In reply to dean1484 :

Sad but true. There are a lot of people out there not getting the help that they really need. To me, Mental health is the biggest crisis in America today. More attention to that will drive many improvements overall. 

You don't blame the wrench for your car not running right. Same situation here. 

dean1484 said:

Stepping away from the gun debate the mental health problem keeps getting swept under the rug.  It is a political mine field that no one is willing to step in. 
 

It would take hundreds of  billions of dollars and a multi generational commitment and massive social change with respect to the publics attitude towards mental health for change to occur. 

I don't think the social aspect is very far off from where it needs to be.  Not sure of your age, but have you worked with any late Millennials or Gen Zers?  Have you heard of a "mental health day"?  It seems that society is more apt to respond to mental health issues.

With that said, I think there is a difference between people needing a "mental health day" and those that are having serious, ongoing mental health struggles.  There's also the aspect of what effect pharmaceuticals have on people, but that can be dangerous territory to tread into as well.  

I'm not a smart man, but I know what IBTL is.

     - F. Gump, 5/23/23

Oh look, twenty three and twenty three!

     - F. Gump, 5/23/23

Unfortunately the mental health card is largely played as a deflection, as it's rarely paired with any sort of action that could help the situation. Also unfortunately, policies that are supported by a majority of the electorate can't seem to get passed, like universal background checks, waiting periods and safe storage.

We have to be licensed and pass tests to drive a car, there are restrictions on where and how we use them, different licenses are required for different types of vehicles, people with health conditions that make operating a car dangerous to others aren't allowed to drive.  Why should guns be so different?

IBTL

The gun thing is another example of how democracy can go bad.  If we took the money out of the influence game politicians would quickly see more people wanted some change in the situation than ones who wanted no laws and automatic weapons.  My frustration is how demonstrating competence with the tool is not part of the process.  Some sort of real research into a person's mental, criminal and  chemical situation should also be required.  I knew nothing about guns yet bought them with nothing but an ID and money.  Why did I buy one?  I am terrified of the nut cases who own them.  Permitless concealed carry should be illegal, but right now more states are going the other way.  Enough reason for us to stay away from those states with our PA plates and jewish last name.

In reply to Stampie :

same here. I was mainly interested in the mechanical function and the fact that this hunk of metal can withstand tens of thousands of PSI and fling another hunk of metal at supersonic speed, and do it repeatedly.  I own *many* firearms. Last i noticed, every one of them, loaded or not, in a safe or not, not one of them killed anyone. They actually have done absolutely nothing(maybe rust a bit..). My knifes havent stabbed anyone. My garage didnt clean itself. My tools dont hop up and work on stuff when im not around.  

Mental health(or lack of it), in my opinion, is the answer to a whole lotta probs.

Getting (minimally) partisan here...

Major factors that appear to be fairly unequivocally related to increases in firearm homicides:

• Socioeconomic opportunity - general hopelessness for the future, especially as it relates to financial opportunity
• Media and social media attention on shooters and mass shooters increasing attention that drives up incidents

So... it can be bi-partisan agreed that all we need to do is make sure that every person has a good future outlook for a long, healthy, and productive life that will provide the socioeconomic comfort and stability, and rein in the excesses of media to elevate sensationalism.

Simple.

(In case it's not obvious, that was sarcasm. None of that is simple. We're not coming up with a solution here. I'm commenting about how impossibly massive of a topic this is.)

Well, much like the EV / ICE thread, I can see that this will be one that I occasionally observe from afar without participating in.

Not even one page in and already the same tired tropes have been drug out with no intent ti actually discuss. Misinformation and inaccuracies of people that don't understand things. 

I'm out.

RX8driver said:

Unfortunately the mental health card is largely played as a deflection, as it's rarely paired with any sort of action that could help the situation. Also unfortunately, policies that are supported by a majority of the electorate can't seem to get passed, like universal background checks, waiting periods and safe storage.

We have to be licensed and pass tests to drive a car, there are restrictions on where and how we use them, different licenses are required for different types of vehicles, people with health conditions that make operating a car dangerous to others aren't allowed to drive.  Why should guns be so different?

IBTL

I completely agree with you, but there isn't a line in the constitution that says "right to drive a car shall not be infringed."  That one line in the Bill of Rights is the real barrier.

I should clarify that I'm a hard-left, NPR-listening, BLM-supporting, works-in-the-arts liberal... who owns guns.  We have this chasm between the 2nd amendment worshipers and the liberals - the former likely being gun owners, and the latter likely saw a gun in a movie once.  I have a problem with my people making rules about boomsticks when they don't have any experience.

I have often thought that people like me should have the answers.  I own guns, have a crapload of experience with them, and I want changes to gun laws.  But I don't have the first real clue other than theories.  I think Dean1484 hit the nail on the head.  The hard truth is that there are plenty of countries with guns that don't have our problem, including our OWN country that didn't have this problem 100 years ago.  Heck, when I was in high school, I would take my rifle to school and leave it in the office because dad would come meet me and we would hunt in the woods behind the school, and that was as recently as the 90s.

In my opinion, gun violence comes down to these basic roots:

• Mental health
• Pay-to-play politics
• Classism/Equality

And as Dean said, we got here via generations of neglecting these issues, so even if we do an about-face it's going to take generations to get out of it.  We're like the frog in the pot of water.  We've grown accustomed to the heat and it's going to kill us slowly.