Any counselors, PsyDs, or LCSWs in the house?

Back in 2012 I started my Master's in Counseling (MSW) with the goal of getting licensed and either joining an existing practice or just doing it on my own.  I got one partial semester in before my divorce and it has been laying dormant since. I have strong leanings toward lightwork (spiritual side of things) and LGBTQ counseling.

I was talking with a friend who suggested I skip the Master's and try to get accepted straight into a PsyD program, citing two reasons:  1- PsyD kind of combines the Master's and Doctorate into one path, and 2- LCSW (Master's) is getting somewhat difficult to become licensed in some states.  He also cited that 5 years for PsyD is not much longer than 3 for master's, and a heck of a lot shorter than Master's THEN PsyD after.

So I wanted to bounce it off of you folks.  I will go ahead and make the assumption that APA accreditation is pretty mandatory.  I will obviously be working, which means that online is the only way to go. That also narrows down my school search to exactly ONE; Fielding in CA.  ... Unless you think APA accreditation is not as necessary as I'm thinking it is?  What will a non-APA doctorate limit me from?

Where should I go to find some money for this?  I can fit it into the budget (I think) and don't want loans, but where is a good source for scholarships and grants?

Suggestions, tips, ideas?  I want to get accepted and start by the fall if possible.

SWMBO is LCSW with Masters degree.  She has her own practice as a substance abuse counselor. There should be plenty of opportunities for substance abuse counseling, right?  She works part time & doesn't make much money at all.

I have heard (though I have not confirmed) that insurance companies will often only pay if you have a PhD. It may be worth investigating. 

I have a friend who received his PsyD from University of Cincinnati in the late 1970s.  Wright State University in Dayton, Ohio was a new college at the time, and offered him a scholarship to attend.  He turned it down because no one had heard of WSU.  He said in hindsight he should have taken the offer because he could've named his salary anywhere in the US with a PsyD from WSU.  

Not sure if WSU offers what you're looking for, but it may be worth your research.  

I graduated WSU in 1996 with a marketing degree.  Not worth a lot.  My accounting friends got their money's worth.  Better than Xavier, OSU, UC, Dayton and most other Ohio colleges.  

M2Pilot said:

SWMBO is LCSW with Masters degree.  She has her own practice as a substance abuse counselor. There should be plenty of opportunities for substance abuse counseling, right?  She works part time & doesn't make much money at all.

The three different LCs I have seen in the past 5 years have all basically fallen into this.  The first was licensed, took insurance, and had an office.  She ditched the whole thing and went to life coaching.  No more insurance, no office, and instead she is making big dollars teaching seminars and private consults.  The second more or less got laid off from his office because he was the least-earning member and he's having trouble getting clients in his private practice.  The third is still taking insurance, but her list of PhDs, PsyDs, and certifications completely covers the wall of her waiting room.

As it has been explained to me, an MSW here might mean bupkiss if I move to another state and I won't be able to be licensed.

Woody said:

I have heard (though I have not confirmed) that insurance companies will often only pay if you have a PhD. It may be worth investigating. 

Former mental health insurance specialist. The answer is....yes and no. Depends on several things. Within my company, we recognized four levels of accreditation. Lmft/ladc, licsw,  phd, md/do. What they will and will not pay for is due to your plan, and who is considered eligible for the job. Testing usually requires a doctorate. Certain therapy does as well. Common stuff (used to be called a 90806, but that's been changed) pretty much anyone can do. Obviously writing scripts requires medical cert. If you're using a supervisory protocol (intern or whoever does the job, licensed supervisor signs and bills) the supervisor has to be recognized by the insurance (in network) has to he eligible for the service performed, and the state has to allow for a supervisory protocol. A famous problem we had was the state of Wisconsin? Didn't recognize that protocol for a long time, and we'd get denials left and right from providers in out service area but outside of Minnesota. Right pain,  that was. The big kicker is, doctors get paid more. Like a lot. 25-30/hr more. 

Also, there is a MASSIVE shortage of doctorate level people right now. "Counselors" are a dime a dozen. Doctors sometimes have 6 month waiting lists. Consider that. 

Mndsm said:

Former mental health insurance specialist. 

The big kicker is, doctors get paid more. Like a lot. 25-30/hr more. 

 

Also, there is a MASSIVE shortage of doctorate level people right now. "Counselors" are a dime a dozen. Doctors sometimes have 6 month waiting lists. Consider that. 

Everything you need to know, right there.

I did a lot of research today including reaching out to some of my cousins who have done the Doctorate path (not in psychology).  Their assessment of it is pretty bleak; like be prepared for 6 years of the hardest work you've ever done and no social life.

I'll be completely honest:  This is my calling and it is what I'm drawn to do. In some ways I already do it, but only because I'm emotionally set up to be good at it.  The licensing and education is a necessity to A) put the science behind my nebulous talents, and B) so that I can get legally paid and be compensated for practicing my gifts.  The actual level of certification (doctorate, master's, associate, whatever) is inconsequential to me.  That sounds like I'm trying to do the least work for the most benefit, but it is somewhat true.  Example: I remember taking the ASE test when I was a mechanic.  I already knew from my years of experience everything I needed to know about fixing cars.  The certification was so that I could get paid more and be marketable.  I need to get a higher-ed psych degree to fine tune my skills and become licensed, but I'm not sure the doctorate is where I need to go if its as difficult as my friends are saying.

Mndsm said:

 

Also, there is a MASSIVE shortage of doctorate level people right now. "Counselors" are a dime a dozen. Doctors sometimes have 6 month waiting lists. Consider that. 

Very true.  Counselors are a dime a dozen... not in this area, but true other places.  I have been seeing one of three counselors on and off for three years and I still can't get an appointment any more frequently than about once every 3 weeks.  Every one of them is booked solid for 9 hours a day 6 days a week with waiting lists longer than your arm.  Definite shortage here in central PA.

Do you think it would be safe to go LCSW (MSW) and have a wide variety of states accept that for licensing?  I know I would have to become licensed in each state unless they recognize reciprocity, but I'm trying to not run into pigeon-holing myself into an unlicensable situation.

The net goal here is not to be marketable, employable, and financially successful.  The goal is to get my feet on the ground and start doing the good work.  My future doesn't look like the best university seal on my degree so that I can work for the best hospitals and make good money.  My future looks like private practice, hooking up with another couple counselors in a small office, or joining with a Wellness Center and practicing with them.  I deserve to be compensated for my work, but "success" to me looks like seriously helping fellow humans and being able to pay the bills.

Curtis said:

Mndsm said:

 

Also, there is a MASSIVE shortage of doctorate level people right now. "Counselors" are a dime a dozen. Doctors sometimes have 6 month waiting lists. Consider that. 

Very true.  Counselors are a dime a dozen... not in this area, but true other places.  I have been seeing one of three counselors on and off for three years and I still can't get an appointment any more frequently than about once every 3 weeks.  Every one of them is booked solid for 9 hours a day 6 days a week with waiting lists longer than your arm.  Definite shortage here in central PA.

Do you think it would be safe to go LCSW (MSW) and have a wide variety of states accept that for licensing?  I know I would have to become licensed in each state unless they recognize reciprocity, but I'm trying to not run into pigeon-holing myself into an unlicensable situation.

The net goal here is not to be marketable, employable, and financially successful.  The goal is to get my feet on the ground and start doing the good work.  My future doesn't look like the best university seal on my degree so that I can work for the best hospitals and make good money.  My future looks like private practice, hooking up with another couple counselors in a small office, or joining with a Wellness Center and practicing with them.  I deserve to be compensated for my work, but "success" to me looks like seriously helping fellow humans and being able to pay the bills.

 

Msw/lcsw is a good path. It's not doctorate level (obviously) but in most cases, and in most places you should be able to perform all but the most rigorous services. Case in point, I actually ended up going to a place that was a former client of mine some years back, and the person running my particular program was a phd- most were msw levels and all were paid under the clinic. I guess it really depends on how you want to leverage your talents. I could probably dig up some laws if you really wanted,  I still have friends that are plugged in. Additionally, as I was exiting my marriage, mn law was changing that was only allowing msw clinicians to do things like in home and intensive services, my exes 4 year degree went straight down the E36 M3ter the minute she quit her job to go on disability and lost her grandfather clause. 

Edit- and in your case, an msw might be ideal. The trick with a doctorate level is you rarely get to do actual real live help. You do testing, Intakes, emergency evals, and the like. It sounds to be like a good spot for you would be part of a clinic running a group, or as you said, wellness center. Hospital therapist isnt a bad deal either, because you could potentially end up doing crisis evals in the er, or working an iop program. Or end up at some place like promises or hazelden and make a metric berkeleyton of money. 

Mndsm.... Thank you for that info.

One of my problems right now is that there doesn't seem to be any continuity in what degrees are offered.  One school offers an MCC with concentrations in MFT, general, addiction, crisis, and mental health.  Then another school offers a different Masters for each concentration, which of course means a different accreditation body for each, some of which aren't recognized by PA.

I am trying to figure out which degree to get.  The school where I'm already accepted offers just the MCC (general) but the curriculum touches on many of the disciplines; marriage/family, addiction, sexuality, mental disorders, etc.

Here is the goal.  As I mentioned before I want to either have a private practice or go in with an existing practice or Wellness Center.  The target of my talents is primarily general therapy with strong leans toward marriage/family and LGBTQ.

So that opens up more questions:

1- do I get MCC, MSW, or MFT?
2- then do I have to be licensed as whatever the degree is?  LCP, LCSW, or LMFT respectively?
3- Once I'm licensed as one thing, does it limit what I can practice?  For instance if I get LMFT and someone shows up in my office wanting therapy for depression or OCD, are there limits to what I can treat?
4- Which degree/license covers the broadest scope?

Reading this thread from a long distance away (the entirely different world called Canada), it sounds as though you should be very sure you know what jurisdiction you want to work in before you start figuring out what qualifications to go after.

I randomly had a related discussion with my father the other day. He has his Bachelors in substance and alcohol abuse counseling, and was trying to get his masters.  At least in that particular field the pay to bull E36 M3 ratio was not favorable below a PHD. 

Spoke with my therapist tonight and asked her these questions about which one to get.  Her response was classic:  "the cheapest" and mentioned that most of your REAL education in your specialty comes from where you choose to do your internship, and the degree itself is more just a basis.

She said that the specializations can back you into a corner.  When a person needs help with depression, they won't call a LMFT.

She also said that your licensing must follow the degree, so if I get an MSW, I will be LCSW.  She mentioned that hospitals pay a bit more for social workers, so she also recommended the MSW route.

My curiosity is that the school where I'm already accepted offers an MCC, but I don't know what licensing that would get.

In reply to Curtis :

Specialty has nothing to do with degree, really. Specialty is like saying you're a Volvo expert. Sure, you can do a starter on a Chevy just fine, but you're better suited to a 240dl. You can be any level of counselor and "specialize" in LGBTQ,  or whatever. Degree is the trick. My (always) recommendation is to get the fattest degree you can. Realistically you can't have too many letters after your name. Assuming you're not going PhD,  your next best bet is msw. That opens up the most avenues for marketability, as well as viability going forward. Licensure is only getting harder as states put the squeeze on quack "counselors " (there was a 30k battle raging on about how we wouldn't pay a horse trainer once, or the time a guy sent his kid to a completely unregulated youth camp and wanted us to pay for the therapy). Lcsw carried the most weight at the masters level when I left the industry, I dont imagine that's changed. Lmft is straight counselor/therapist. Less to get there, but you're restricted to well, therapy. Especially with the LGBTQ community, you want all the letters you can get. And given what I know about the utter LACK of availability of services like that (youth particularly) I'd lean heavy that direction. Msw/lcsw/LGBTQ would open a lot of the right doors for you, land you some good work, and most important- give you a chance to do some real good. 

As far as Mcc, I have no idea. I would imagine it would put you in ladc/lmft territory. Possible to make it work,  but a bit lacking in the long run. 

I have a friend who does counseling for relationships, LGBTQ issues, etc. 

She got a Masters in Clinical Phsycology and is working towards becoming a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT in CA) while also working towards becoming a Certified Sex Therapist through AASECT.

In talking with her, it sounds like in order to be a Therapist, you've gotta have a Masters. Counselors, however do not. 

In reply to Mndsm :

Good info.  I have it narrowed down to MMHC or MSW.  Strangely I got kinda the opposite advice from yours talking to an LCSW.  I'm not disagreeing with you but I wanted to run it past you to get your take on it.

She said that (although perceptions are changing), MSW/LCSW is most looked at by psych folks as less able to do things, or less qualified.  They are like the bleeding hearts who lobby for the masses, and MCMH/LPC are more the scientific psychologist/therapist thing.  My thing is that I kind of want both:  I want to work with individuals and couples in a therapy setting, but be the empathetic heart bleeder.  I think my greatest impact on the health of the masses/society will be done as an individual therapist.  "heal the world one person at a time" thing.

I have little interest in hospital work, welfare work, or lobbying/corporate work.  I want to be a therapist.

In looking at the MSW curricula, I'm noticing that there is a lot of "life skills" stuff since it is a Humanities degree.  Like one of the classes was called "sociology of welfare."  The curricula for MCMH was more of what I think I need for my future; therapies, theory, psychology, brain chemistry and disorders, etc.

I know that any of the degrees will theoretically let me do my job in a private therapy setting, but my impression is that LCSW would better suit me if I want to counsel addiction, suicide, post-incarceration, life skills, case work etc.  It is also my impression that LPC would better suit depression, couples, emotional healing, etc.  Is that impression correct, or not?

Right now I'm leaning toward LPC, unless there is some particular reason why it would limit my client base or my ability to get specializations in LGBTQ or other things.

pheller said:

I have a friend who does counseling for relationships, LGBTQ issues, etc. 

She got a Masters in Clinical Phsycology and is working towards becoming a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT in CA) while also working towards becoming a Certified Sex Therapist through AASECT.

 

In talking with her, it sounds like in order to be a Therapist, you've gotta have a Masters. Counselors, however do not. 

 

In PA (as I understand it) your licensure MUST follow the degree.  If I get MCC or MCMH, I must get LPC.  If I get an MFFT, I must get LMFT.  If I get an MSW, I must get LCSW.

The other frustrating part is that many of these schools don't follow the same protocols.  Some offer an MCC, then specializations in MFT or Crisis or addiction.  Other schools offer the specialization as the master itself, like MSW, MMFT, MCMH, etc.

The level of research I'm encountering is staggering.  By the time I research tuition, time, requirements, curricula, licensure, which accreditation goes with which degree (and which ones will the most states accept for licensure)... I'm really ripping out my hair.  Why can't there be 6 choices that are all specific? Why do they have to take those 6 choices and mix and match for 400 different confusing options?

... Not to mention the pitfalls of which degree has a hope of being accepted to insurance programs, what malpractice insurance costs for each one....

Kinda nuts.