Hey All,
I got tired of our cold bathroom, so I brought the small heater from the garage in and plugged it in. Sometime in the middle of the night, the outlet stopped working. Didn't trip a breaker, just stopped working. It's a GFCI, but it wasn't tripped either (though it does seem a little "wonky". I can't trip it and reset it in "test" either).
So I did some trouble shooting- the outlet in the bathroom is the end of a circut. Just before it is the outlet in the bedroom. I pulled that outlet - no power from the outlet, but power getting to it.
Okay, outlet failed. So I replaced it yesterday. Plugged in a new heater (that worked just fine for a few days on a heavy extension cord from another outlet) and went to bed. Woke up this morning - outlet is dead again.
I'm no electrician, but I'm stumpped here. At the bedroom outlet it transitions to old wiring and into a crawl space. There is some newer wiring nearby down there. My plan is to string some new Romex down to the crawl space, put in a box and tie into the wiring for an outside outlet. That outlet is on it's own line and is newer Romex wiring.
Any thoughts on what would cause an outlet to fail like that twice? It's not the outlet the heater is plugged into, it's the one before it in the circut. Maybe the wonky GFCI? I already have a new one and I'm going to replace it while I'm at it just 'cause it should work right. Old wiring?
Any ideas?
Double check the tightness of the wire at the breaker. A lot like your battery terminals in the car, if they're not tight they can appear to work until you actually ask for some amperage demand.
I've also seen breakers that have bad contacts and do the same thing. Whack on the breaker and see if you get juice.
I have juice at the bedroom outlet. The outlet just failed. Which I know can happen, but I've never had it happen before. And there's tons of other stuff on that circut - way too much, really. Everything else is working fine.
I am an electrician. I have never heard of an outlet failing like that so quickly.My guess is there is a connection problem,and not an outlet problem. Even the cheapest Home Depot outlets should not fail that quickly if at all. As far as the GFCI is concerned I would swap it out ASAP if it isn't tripping with the test button. That is a sign of a bad GFCI. Are the wires on the GFCI attached to the proper side? By that I mean,are the black,and white wires attached to the line side,and not the load side? Are the wires on the outlets wired with the proper polarity? White should be on the left while looking at it from the front side with the ground down,and the black should be on the right.
If you can't figure it out hire an electrician. There is no room for error with house wiring,and it isn't a hobby. It may seem like a lame bit of advice,but it really is the best money you can spend if you feel out gunned or over your head with wiring. It is dangerous.
Chris
Mazdax605 wrote:
Are the wires on the GFCI attached to the proper side? By that I mean,are the black,and white wires attached to the line side,and not the load side?
I'm not sure, but they will be when I replace it. That bathroom was remodeled before we bought the house and the work is not great. So anything is possible. I know the new outlet I put in is right and the wires leaving it to go to the GFCI are right.
And absolutely, if I don't get it at the next at bat I'll bring in a pro. This is pretty simple wiring, so I can't imagine what is going on. But if tonight's repair doesn't do the trick it's something beyond me.
Got a new GFCI sitting on my desk right now ready to go in. I knew that needed to go.
Thanks,
Ed
GFCI outlets can get weird,Check all connections for tight by PULLING on wire with insulated needle nose pliers. I have had broken wires that looked good but when pulled were broken inside insulation out of sight. Possible rodent damage?
Some time back, I saw a GFCI which failed internally due to high draw (big slow cooker). It never did trip. I also saw the same thing happen to one leg of a 220V breaker. Maybe the heater is drawing enough wattage to heat up the contacts inside the GFCI but since there's not a ground fault and it's not enough to trip the main breaker it keeps roasting GFCI's instead of tripping them.
It's possible to install a GFCI so it's the first-not last- outlet on a circuit and it protects all of the outlets on the circuit. My outdoor outlets on the back porch are wired that way. If it pops the GFCI, you have to go inside to reset it. That's something you need an electrician to figure out how to do where existing wiring is concerned.
You are plenty smart enough to know this but it bears repeating: whatever you do, don't remove the GFCI from any circuit near water!
Thanks for the input guys, if only to help me think it through. I did as I planned, and pulled some new Romex through to the crawl space. I tied into a different circuit than I intended because it had a box already that I could use, but it's nice new wiring. Way too much on that other circuit anyway.
I did find a terrible looking splice just out in the open at the other end down in the crawl space and one of the wire nuts had fallen off. Not in a box or anything, just hanging there further back in the crawl space. Only going to these two outlets, so I suspect that somehow was the cause of the problem. Still, rather than fix that I thought it better just to tie into another circuit. I'll have to figure out what it's on now, but it can't have as much stuff as the one it came off of. That little heater draws like 9 amps, so it's not huge, but pretty big load on a 15 amp circuit.
Oh, the outlet I installed yesterday was fine. It wasn't getting power even that far today. So I reused it and installed the new GFCI. The old one was wired correctly, but with the ground not connected. Not a big deal as there was no ground on the old line anyway, but there is now. So it's better in every way. Heater plugged in and running, so I'll see in the morning if all is well. I suspect I've got it licked. Actually glad it happened. That was a scary looking bit of wiring. Glad to have it out. I imagine that could heat up pretty well. Sure don't need to set the house on fire.
Old houses. It's a wonder there aren't more fires than there are when you see things like that.
Thanks again,
Ed
Just so you know the ground(bare/green) wire is not required to make a GFCI protect the circuit. The GFCI monitors the grounded or neutral conductor for imbalances. Lots of people think it looks at the supplemental ground wire,but it doesn't. If you do have a ground wire use it as it is the safest thing to do. Another way to test a GFCI is to put a meter between the hot wire,and ground wire. Doing this will trip the GFCI as it should because it sees a load not traveling back on the neutral like it should,and trips.
Huh. Now that's a good tip! I never heard that before. Thanks again for your help!
