Anyone know a real estate attorney?

BTW... there is no requirement that landlords allow ESA dogs. (Might differ in FL)

Fortunately my career in auto insurance claims gives me a good bit of familiarity with HIPPA.

SV reX said:

BTW... there is no requirement that landlords allow ESA dogs. (Might differ in FL)

I'm buying the condo, not renting.  My understanding is the HOA can't deny me because of my ESA.

In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :

As I understand it, you are buying real estate that INCLUDES a contract with certain stipulations. One of them is no dogs bigger than 50 lbs. 

The HOA is only enforcing the contractural items that all the owners have already agreed to. 

If the HOA makes an exception for you, it's reasonable for the other owners to ask why the contract was not enforced.

ESAs are different than service animals according to the ADA.

YMMV

ESAs may be protected under the Fair Housing Act (I have no knowledge), or under other FL state laws, but they are not protected by the ADA.

SV reX said:

ESAs may be protected under the Fair Housing Act (I have no knowledge), or under other FL state laws, but they are not protected by the ADA.

They are protected under the FHA and it is pretty clear.  You need a letter from a recognized therapy provider stating they recommend the ESA and why they recommend it. Once you provide that they can grant the exception unless they find another reason (dog is a danger to others, etc.).  Many people think (not saying OP does) that "because I said so and you cant ask more" is the law, but it is not.

Someone else needs to say you qualify for an exemption.  With a recognized service dog, the fact that they are certified and trained is someone else saying it, with an ESA a Therapist can say it.

With them asking for more details, to me, they are just trying to check the box they need to check to make it legal

SV reX said:

In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :

As I understand it, you are buying real estate that INCLUDES a contract with certain stipulations. One of them is no dogs bigger than 50 lbs. 

The HOA is only enforcing the contractural items that all the owners have already agreed to. 

If the HOA makes an exception for you, it's reasonable for the other owners to ask why the contract was not enforced.

ESAs are different than service animals according to the ADA.

 

YMMV

Agreed.  I don't even mind putting her through the training to make her an official service dog.  

By the way, I didn't get to follow up with you. Did the shipping work out okay?  I hope Michelle came through for you.

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

SV reX said:

BTW... there is no requirement that landlords allow ESA dogs. (Might differ in FL)

I'm buying the condo, not renting.  My understanding is the HOA can't deny me because of my ESA.

They can not deny it, but they can ask questions and require answers in order to grant the exception.  That way if it ever comes up they can say they followed the law.

Looks like the Fair Housing Act DOES offer some protection:

The FHA is a federal law that prohibits discrimination in housing and housing-related services due to race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability, and familial status. The FHA applies to entities that set terms and conditions for housing and provide services and facilities in connection with housing, including condo Community Associations (HOAs). 

•  

   

•  

   

The FHA requires HOAs to comply with its obligations. For example, HOAs cannot take any adverse action affecting a person's right to buy, rent, or enjoy the use of real estate based upon that individual's membership in a protected class. For example, an HOA cannot prohibit children from using the pool or fitness center or other amenity or restricts the hours that they can use said facilities or that requires them to be accompanied by an adult at all times. 

•  

   

•  

   

The FHA requires HOAs and community associations to make reasonable accommodations in their rules or policies when such accommodations may be necessary for a disabled owner to fully enjoy and use a unit. For example, if a condo board denies a resident's request for an accessible parking space near the entrance of their unit, they are violating housing laws. 
 

HOWEVER, an HOA CAN restrict them in certain conditions:

Yes, emotional support animals (ESAs) are protected under the Fair Housing Act (FHA). The FHA protects people with disabilities from housing discrimination and allows them to live with their ESAs, even if that housing has a no-pet policy. ESAs are not technically pets, but are considered to be more like assistive aids such as wheelchairs. 

•  

   

•  

   

•  

   

•  

   

The FHA requires housing providers to allow reasonable accommodations for assistance animals. This includes providing emotional support that alleviates one or more identified effects of a person's disability. You can't be legally charged a deposit or other fee for your ESA. 

•  

   

•  

   

To certify your ESA, you need a note from a licensed mental health professional, often called an ESA letter. Some states require you to establish 30 day relationship with a clinician before they can issue an ESA letter. 

•  

   

•  

   

Landlords are required to make an exception to their "no pet" policy so that a tenant with a disability can fully use and enjoy their dwelling. Landlords can deny requests if the accommodation would create an undue financial or administrative burden, pose a direct threat to the health or safety of others, or result in substantial physical damage to the property of others. 

•  

   

•  

   

The FHA covers all types of housing, including public housing, except rental dwellings of four or less units, where one unit is occupied by the owner. 
 

That's a pretty big loophole. "...undue financial or administrative burden, pose a direct threat to the health or safety of others, or result in substantial physical damage to the property of others."  HOAs could drive a truck through that one pretty easily. 
 

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

 

Agreed.  I don't even mind putting her through the training to make her an official service dog.  

There is no training to make a ESA an official service animal.  A service animal is trained to do a specific task depending on the disability. If you have Your Therapist adjust the wording of the letter, you're good, all they need to say is "why" and it can be very generic.

I have houses in MD, FL and WA and they are all the same requirements when it comes to ESA

Here's the thing...

Vero Beach has an elderly population. Nationwide 21% of the population is over 54 years old. Vero Beach is double that- 41%.

There are a lot of older folks there. 
 

If I am 85 years old and walking with a cane or walker, I'm not gonna be very happy seeing a 100 lb dog at my front door. It's a clear safety issue.

I have a 60lb dog (not well trained). She knocked down an elderly man into a ditch recently just trying to be "friendly".  I was concerned I might have to put her down.  A 100 lb dog is a lot riskier.

Just talk with the folks.

Steve_Jones said:

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

SV reX said:

BTW... there is no requirement that landlords allow ESA dogs. (Might differ in FL)

I'm buying the condo, not renting.  My understanding is the HOA can't deny me because of my ESA.

They can not deny it, but they can ask questions and require answers in order to grant the exception.  That way if it ever comes up they can say they followed the law.

Yup

Steve_Jones said:

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

SV reX said:

BTW... there is no requirement that landlords allow ESA dogs. (Might differ in FL)

I'm buying the condo, not renting.  My understanding is the HOA can't deny me because of my ESA.

They can not deny it, but they can ask questions and require answers in order to grant the exception.  That way if it ever comes up they can say they followed the law.

Yes and no...

They can't deny an ESA.  They CAN restrict a 100 lb dog they see as a potential threat to the safety of other owners in the building. (They already do... it's in the contract)

Im not trying to be insensitive. I know Steve loves his dog and has a legitimate need. I also know Labs have wonderfully calm personalities (good choice, Steve). But there are no promises of protections for larger ESA dogs.

The HOA has a very strong case.  This is not a violation of any rights. This is an exception to a legitimate and lawful pet restriction. 
 

Be nice. Meet with them in person and bring the dog. 

In reply to SV reX :

If you look at one of my earlier replies, I said exactly that. They cannot deny it, but they can find another reason. I specifically said "dog is a danger to others" could be the other reason. 

SV reX said:

Steve_Jones said:

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

SV reX said:

BTW... there is no requirement that landlords allow ESA dogs. (Might differ in FL)

I'm buying the condo, not renting.  My understanding is the HOA can't deny me because of my ESA.

They can not deny it, but they can ask questions and require answers in order to grant the exception.  That way if it ever comes up they can say they followed the law.

Yes and no...

They can't deny an ESA.  They CAN restrict a 100 lb dog they see as a potential threat to the safety of other owners in the building. (They already do... it's in the contract)

Im not trying to be insensitive. I know Steve loves his dog and has a legitimate need. I also know Labs have wonderfully calm personalities (good choice, Steve). But there are no promises of protections for larger ESA dogs.

The HOA has a very strong case.  This is not a violation of any rights. This is an exception to a legitimate and lawful pet restriction. 
 

Be nice. Meet with them in person and bring the dog. 

Trying to, I have no plans to go in guns blazing.  I want to make this an amicable resolution.  I also don't want any legal rights violated.  I don't think the protection for an ESA or service 🐕‍🦺 have any connection to size/weight, but I could be wrong.

Did you get the shipping taken care of?  Let me know if not.  

Marjorie Suddard said:

No suggestions on attorneys, but it is my understanding landlords cannot ask you for those specifics on ESAs.

Margie

Came here to say this.  It is NOT legal to ask about the nature of ESAs.

We encountered this frequently when I was married.  My wife had seizures, so she had a chihuahua that could sense when they were coming.  Some lady on a plane got all pissed because she was told she couldn't travel with her dog, and she escalated it to the point where she asked us what service the dog was providing.  She was instantly taken off the plane and the police were called.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Service Animals and ESA are different.  It is 100% legal to ask about an ESA as they are not recognized by the ADA, service animals are recognized by the ADA. In order for a Landlord to grant an ESA variance in MD a letter from a Therapist stating exactly why the ESA is recommended is required to be on file.

In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :

I think you misunderstood me. 
 

I'm not suggesting there is such thing as a size restriction to what can or cannot be considered an ESA or service dog.  I'm saying that ESAs may be permissible but 100 lb dogs can be seen as a threat regardless of whether they are ESAs or not. 
 

Trained service dogs can't be restricted no matter what. They are protected under the ADA (a Consitutional right).  Technically speaking, the ADA doesn't consider service dogs as "dogs".  They are assistance devices to aid with a specific disability (similar to a wheelchair).  Dogs don't have rights. Humans with disabilities do. 
 

Consider this... if you had an ESA grizzly bear, would there be any question of whether it could be restricted?  
 

Everyone may have a right to an ESA, but everyone doesn't necessarily have the right to choose a large dog as an ESA and expect it be treated the same as a smaller dog.

There is nothing illegal about asking about someone's disability. No one has to answer. 
 

Requiring the response may be illegal. Using that information as a basis for qualification is discrimination. That's illegal. Failing to protect access to it can be a HIPPA violation. That's illegal. 

Think about their perspective. You and all your neighbors bought into a condo community with an HOA that specifically doesn't allow pets. This is how you expected to enjoy retirement on the beach. Now someone wants to bring their 100+ lb animal and have you make an exception. Even if this HOA legally has to accommodate you, you are starting a relationship with a large group of people on the wrong foot, some of which may immediately despise you, and with an HOA in place that could make your life miserable in other "unrelated" ways. If I were you, I'd keep shopping. I'd rather have neighbors who love my dog and maybe even have some of their own.

As a short term rental manager I can tell you that owners have a right to decline the presence of ESAs from a stay (except in NY and CA).  Owners do not have the right to refuse service animals.