Apparently SpaceX is an OSHA-free chaos zone with a silly goal

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Voyager was used as perspective, as it's still moving really quickly.

I'm aware of those.  But even with those, is there a realistic expectation of getting anywhere near the speed of light?  And by near, I would think 1/10 would be really good, and that would still take at least 40 years just to get to the closest star.  

And communication would be interesting- once there, super high powered radios would take 8 years to talk and reply.  

We think of going to Mars as a one way trip....

In reply to alfadriver :

We already have communication basically figured out. Quantum entanglement has been proven to work and be doable by us with current tech. Which means faster than light communication is a thing now. Expensive, energy consuming, but it's crossed from science fiction to science fact.  All we really need to do is scale it up from a few bits at a time, which is being actively worked on by a few different teams around the world.

I can't be the only person here, amongst all the certified engineers and nerds, who actually follows along with this kind of science instead of sitting back thinking that because someone 100 years ago said it wasn't possible that that was the end of the conversation. 100 years ago we could barely fly across the Atlantic Ocean. If we, as a people, prioritized life and exploration instead of war for a few years, we'd be very well on our way. 

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

Elon Musk has accomplished a lot with Space-X. He is also a bit of a nut.

But so was Henry Ford and Thomas Edison and Nichola Tesla.

Henry Ford and Thomas Edison founded companies and got rich. Nicola Tesla made a bunch of money for General Electric and was taken care of the rest of his life.

... and I get to own cheap, mass produced cars and use electricity in my house.

Minor nitpick, but I believe you mean Westinghouse. General Electric was, after all, the brainchild of Edison, formed through the 1892 merger of Edison General Electric Company and Thomson-Houston Electric Company. 

In reply to RevRico :

When we have regular quantum entanglement communication here on earth, I will consider it a big deal.  And then we can apply it to landing on Mars to have real time communication.  If that works, then perhaps we can talk between things multiple light years apart.

Wow, this thing survived overnight. Color me surprised. 

NickD said:

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

Elon Musk has accomplished a lot with Space-X. He is also a bit of a nut.

But so was Henry Ford and Thomas Edison and Nichola Tesla.

Henry Ford and Thomas Edison founded companies and got rich. Nicola Tesla made a bunch of money for General Electric and was taken care of the rest of his life.

... and I get to own cheap, mass produced cars and use electricity in my house.

Minor nitpick, but I believe you mean Westinghouse. General Electric was, after all, the brainchild of Edison, formed through the 1892 merger of Edison General Electric Company and Thomson-Houston Electric Company. 

Well with everything Edison stole from Tesla leaving him to die penniless and alone, it's not that much of a stretch and easy to see where the confusion comes from.

Holy E36 M3.  I'm amazed at the comments suggesting ignoring safety is ok/expected.

Yes, regulations can stifle innovation.  But as was suggested earlier, they are often written in blood.  For a company that size, following them would not be difficult, nor would providing a safe environment.

I work for a large aerospace company.  99% of the bureaucracy lies in govt. defense processes, acquisitions, IT, and other large-corp bloat.  I manage a prototype environment and work closely with a guy in EHS - free from that other bureaucracy, the requirements from EHS are absolutely trivial to overcome.

I appreciate most of Musk's approach to innovation, but safety needs to remain first.

ProDarwin said:

 

Yes, regulations can stifle innovation. 

They can also spawn innovation.  I did that for the gross majority of my 30 year career.  Many high paying jobs to find creative and profitable solutions to the regulations where I worked.

In reply to ProDarwin :

And I am not interpreting a single death in 10 years, from a worker doing something risky on their own decision, as evidence of a general breakdown of safety culture within the company.

alfadriver said:

RX Reven' said:

Dear Hive,

To me, this is definitive proof that Elon is ushering in the future (not some government or agency)...a few lost lives along the way, though tragic, is a minuscule price to pay to make humanity qualitatively more capable, qualitatively better prepared to handle the tough things that constantly come our way.

      

So sacrificing lives for someone else is part of tech life going forward?  I'm not sure what you are getting at.  Would you be happy if your kid was sacrificed to get to Mars?

Take mine. I don't care. 

RevRico said:

NickD said:

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

Elon Musk has accomplished a lot with Space-X. He is also a bit of a nut.

But so was Henry Ford and Thomas Edison and Nichola Tesla.

Henry Ford and Thomas Edison founded companies and got rich. Nicola Tesla made a bunch of money for General Electric and was taken care of the rest of his life.

... and I get to own cheap, mass produced cars and use electricity in my house.

Minor nitpick, but I believe you mean Westinghouse. General Electric was, after all, the brainchild of Edison, formed through the 1892 merger of Edison General Electric Company and Thomson-Houston Electric Company. 

Well with everything Edison stole from Tesla leaving him to die penniless and alone, it's not that much of a stretch and easy to see where the confusion comes from.

Really getting off into the weeds, but Edison didn't really steal anything from Tesla. Tesla and Edison barely worked together, Tesla made a suggestion for his generators, Edison blew him off and Tesla left to go work with Westinghouse. Edison did spend his life trying to discredit Tesla, but even that wasn't successful. Like when he bought Westinghouse AC gear for a prison to use to execute a guy and the guy survived (the elephant electrocution was more a promo for his film company). Tesla died penniless and alone because he gave all his patents to Westinghouse, because Tesla didn't invent for the sake of getting rich but for the sake of bettering people's lives, and because he became unbankable later in life. His Colorado Springs lab was kind of a last ditch effort by investors to see if he still had it, and he spent a bunch of time out there trying to develop "the cold light" and wireless power transmission and claiming to be intercepting radio signals from extraterrestrial beings, and after less than a year with no hints of success everyone pulled the plug, no pun intended, and the lab was torn down over outstanding debts. After that debacle, no one wanted to give him a chance.

Now, Guglielmo Marconi did steal from Tesla. Tesla had laid out all the theoretical groundwork for radio, and was working on putting all the pieces together, when Marconio took all of Tesla's ideas and put them together first and got credit for inventing the radio. Tesla feuded with him for years over that, and it wasn't settled until Marconi had been dead for 6 years and Tesla for 6 months, when the Supreme Court ruled that all of Marconi’s radio patents were invalid and awarded the patents for radio to Tesla.

Sorry. Big fan of Nikola Tesla, and admittedly a bit pedantic. Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming!

Duke said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

And I am not interpreting a single death in 10 years, from a worker doing something risky on their own decision, as evidence of a general breakdown of safety culture within the company.

 

Fair.  I'm not interpreting that single death as a general breakdown either.  There is some data in that article which may or may not suggest that.  I dont think the data is truly there to make an accurate determination.  I think this thread in general *may* over-reaction to the data.

I'm just surprised by the comments suggesting that if there is a general safety breakdown, its ok because they are trying to go to mars.  Or they are innovating.  Or whatever.

ProDarwin said:

Duke said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

And I am not interpreting a single death in 10 years, from a worker doing something risky on their own decision, as evidence of a general breakdown of safety culture within the company.

 

Fair.  I'm not interpreting that single death as a general breakdown either.  There is some data in that article which may or may not suggest that.  I dont think the data is truly there to make an accurate determination.  I think this thread in general *may* over-reaction to the data.

I'm just surprised by the comments suggesting that if there is a general safety breakdown, its ok because they are trying to go to mars.  Or they are innovating.  Or whatever.

I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing people say that people do stupid things and people die. That is what happens in high risk high reward careers, which is what this is. But hey, can't have outrage with that. 

RevRico said:

Mr_Asa said:

RevRico said:

What's your space company trying to do?

I hate this.

Musk's culture of safety has killed someone. 

How is it that any valid criticism of this man is instantly met with derision?

Also, criticism doesn't mean everything else done is negated.

 

My instant derision was at gameboy and his bizarro rant, because his being angry at rich people for not doing what he thinks they should do with their money is getting old.

 

He's rich so he must be evil. People only get rich by being evil. Did you not get the memo?

bobzilla said:

ProDarwin said:

Duke said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

And I am not interpreting a single death in 10 years, from a worker doing something risky on their own decision, as evidence of a general breakdown of safety culture within the company.

 

Fair.  I'm not interpreting that single death as a general breakdown either.  There is some data in that article which may or may not suggest that.  I dont think the data is truly there to make an accurate determination.  I think this thread in general *may* over-reaction to the data.

I'm just surprised by the comments suggesting that if there is a general safety breakdown, its ok because they are trying to go to mars.  Or they are innovating.  Or whatever.

I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing people say that people do stupid things and people die. That is what happens in high risk high reward careers, which is what this is. But hey, can't have outrage with that. 

So space travel is stupid, and they deserve to die?  Not sure what you are trying to get at here.

In reply to alfadriver :

It's like you are actively trying to make it something it's not. Really. Why? Are you that unhappy?

When you work around things that can kill you and you do stupid things, you can die. How is that saying space travel is stupid? 

Please, I'd really like to know how you jumped to that conclusion off what was written. You really had to stretch that one. 

bobzilla said:

RevRico said:

Mr_Asa said:

RevRico said:

What's your space company trying to do?

I hate this.

Musk's culture of safety has killed someone. 

How is it that any valid criticism of this man is instantly met with derision?

Also, criticism doesn't mean everything else done is negated.

 

My instant derision was at gameboy and his bizarro rant, because his being angry at rich people for not doing what he thinks they should do with their money is getting old.

 

He's rich so he must be evil. People only get rich by being evil. Did you not get the memo?

Either die a hero or live long enough to become the villain. 

bobzilla said:

He's rich so he must be evil. People only get rich by being evil. Did you not get the memo?

Money and power do not automatically make someone more evil. But money and power absolutely increase someone's capacity to do evil, and give greater tools to avoid consequences of their actions.

It is absolutely reasonable to put increased scrutiny on the practices of such people and to question any "hero" or "savior" narratives surrounding them.

bobzilla said:

In reply to alfadriver :

It's like you are actively trying to make it something it's not. Really. Why? Are you that unhappy?

When you work around things that can kill you and you do stupid things, you can die. How is that saying space travel is stupid? 

Please, I'd really like to know how you jumped to that conclusion off what was written. You really had to stretch that one. 

Here's the words you typed:

 I'm seeing people say that people do stupid things and people die. That is what happens in high risk high reward careers, which is what this is. 

So who is doing the stupid things and people die?  And when you say that it happens in high risk/reward careers- is it stupid things that happen?  And the last sentence, I assume space travel is high risk/reward.  

I'm just asking for clarification.  It sure doesn't seem that what you typed is what you meant.

bear in mind, I did ask what you were trying to get at.

NickD said:

RevRico said:

NickD said:

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

Elon Musk has accomplished a lot with Space-X. He is also a bit of a nut.

But so was Henry Ford and Thomas Edison and Nichola Tesla.

Henry Ford and Thomas Edison founded companies and got rich. Nicola Tesla made a bunch of money for General Electric and was taken care of the rest of his life.

... and I get to own cheap, mass produced cars and use electricity in my house.

Minor nitpick, but I believe you mean Westinghouse. General Electric was, after all, the brainchild of Edison, formed through the 1892 merger of Edison General Electric Company and Thomson-Houston Electric Company. 

Well with everything Edison stole from Tesla leaving him to die penniless and alone, it's not that much of a stretch and easy to see where the confusion comes from.

Really getting off into the weeds, but Edison didn't really steal anything from Tesla. Tesla and Edison barely worked together, Tesla made a suggestion for his generators, Edison blew him off and Tesla left to go work with Westinghouse. Edison did spend his life trying to discredit Tesla, but even that wasn't successful. Like when he bought Westinghouse AC gear for a prison to use to execute a guy and the guy survived (the elephant electrocution was more a promo for his film company). Tesla died penniless and alone because he gave all his patents to Westinghouse, because Tesla didn't invent for the sake of getting rich but for the sake of bettering people's lives, and because he became unbankable later in life. His Colorado Springs lab was kind of a last ditch effort by investors to see if he still had it, and he spent a bunch of time out there trying to develop "the cold light" and wireless power transmission and claiming to be intercepting radio signals from extraterrestrial beings, and after less than a year with no hints of success everyone pulled the plug, no pun intended, and the lab was torn down over outstanding debts. After that debacle, no one wanted to give him a chance.

Now, Guglielmo Marconi did steal from Tesla. Tesla had laid out all the theoretical groundwork for radio, and was working on putting all the pieces together, when Marconio took all of Tesla's ideas and put them together first and got credit for inventing the radio. Tesla feuded with him for years over that, and it wasn't settled until Marconi had been dead for 6 years and Tesla for 6 months, when the Supreme Court ruled that all of Marconi’s radio patents were invalid and awarded the patents for radio to Tesla.

Sorry. Big fan of Nikola Tesla, and admittedly a bit pedantic. Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming!

I spent 12 years of hard time, more like the best years of my life, never heard or read a single word about the man and his wicked mind.

When I give a construction safety meeting, the very first thing I ALWAYS say is "I can't make this place safe. I can dress you in yellow, make you wear a hard hat, and give you all the training possible, but it's a construction site. Please understand that our work is dangerous, and you MUST be aware."

The industry I work in is not safe. The responsibility for maintaining a safe workplace is still the employer's responsibility. 
 

There is a major difference between "maintaining a safe workplace" and "being safe". Employers can train, that doesn't mean employees will do it properly or avoid harm. 
 

I am opposed to anyone who thinks disregarding safety in pursuit of innovation is acceptable. 
 

I am also opposed to anyone who thinks injuries or harm equate to an unsafe workplace, or are the fault of the employer. 
 

Having said that, the article is very in-depth, and damning. It sounds like SpaceEx had willfully ignored a lot of protocols.  It also sounds like some of the young skilled employees enjoy it, and desire working in a creative environment free of regulation. (I think that is crap- they need to grow up).

The biggest offense in that article is how OSHA has failed to respond.  No meaningful fines, no follow through, no regular inspections, improper paperwork and documentation. It's pathetic. I saw the same thing when I worked in a high risk technical industry (chemical manufacture). OSHA lacks the skills to enforce appropriate safety measures- they are not qualified to understand what they are looking at. So they avoid it. They never inspect.  That's horrible. Those injuries and death can be directly linked to OSHA's failure to perform. 
 

OSHA enforcement and regulation is far more detailed and consistent in construction than in chemical (and I suspect aerospace). 
 

Musk is pushing the limits. That's what entrepreneurs do. That's what my chemical boss did too. Shame on the regulators for their incompetence. 

GameboyRMH said:

Apparently SpaceX is an OSHA-free chaos zone with a silly goal

From your choice of thread title, I assume you also think the US going to the moon in 1969 was silly?  How about all the other countries that have sent up lunar probes since?  How about the countries that have spent billions sending probes to the moon this year?

I mean, 54 years ago we conclusively proved that the moon is made of grey rocks and dust - not even anything as potentially valuable as green cheese.

After all, that money could have been spent feeding world peace or something, right?

alfadriver said:

bobzilla said:

In reply to alfadriver :

It's like you are actively trying to make it something it's not. Really. Why? Are you that unhappy?

When you work around things that can kill you and you do stupid things, you can die. How is that saying space travel is stupid? 

Please, I'd really like to know how you jumped to that conclusion off what was written. You really had to stretch that one. 

Here's the words you typed:

 I'm seeing people say that people do stupid things and people die. That is what happens in high risk high reward careers, which is what this is. 

So who is doing the stupid things and people die?  And when you say that it happens in high risk/reward careers- is it stupid things that happen?  And the last sentence, I assume space travel is high risk/reward.  

I'm just asking for clarification.  It sure doesn't seem that what you typed is what you meant.

bear in mind, I did ask what you were trying to get at.

I think the answer to that one is really simple and obvious.  One employee chose to climb on top of a load of materials in a moving vehicle and died, and his coworkers allowed it. I guarantee management never told anyone to do that. 
 

That one doesn't look like the employers fault. It looks pretty stupid to me.