Apparently SpaceX is an OSHA-free chaos zone with a silly goal

SV reX said:

....The company is VERY clear that seatbelts are required.  Training has been well documented....

Just to highlight this a bit, since I am in the training area.

I like to tell people there are two primary reasons for training:  To educate employees and to cover the companies ass.  Training can certainly (and generally does) do both, but the point is, if you give the training and the employee either does not pay attention or disregards it and get's hurt, that is on them.  The company did what it could do to warn / educate them.  Documentation of that training, as noted, is key! (to avoid getting sued).

RevRico said:

In reply to GameboyRMH :

You absolutely can use it to transmit binary data. And for right now, I'm calling it binary data at the most explicit use of the word binary, a 1 or a 0. Similar to, yet also opposite of, controlling the spin of qubits in quantum computers. 

Information, in its purist form, does not conform to the flawed theory of relativity, because information isn't matter.

Much like we can, and have, teleported atoms across distances. With large amounts of energy and data storage. 

And before you get all ansy and want me to go on an in depth, way above my pay grade, explanation of why I think relativity is flawed, keep in mind it is absolutely useless at a quantum scale, which is why we haven't had a unification theory that's actually held water yet. And remember that information is not matter, so does not need to conform to material standards. 

 

I want the Barbados gameboy back, he was a lot more fun than the Canadian one.

If that is all inevitable, that would totally revolutionize communication on this planet.  As is no need for cell towers all over the place, no need for satellite communication, no need for cables to transmit info to my home, etc.  Much, much, much more impact than communication between here and mars, or stars.

So once we have quantum communication phones, then we can talk about interstellar travel.  Then the only hurdle would be how to get there in a lifetime.

In reply to alfadriver :

No, quantum communications requires a classical channel, so it would add to existing comms equipment rather than subtract from them. And so far there's no hint of quantum tech or our current understanding of physics allowing FTL communications.

In reply to alfadriver :

You were not asking questions about the integrity of SpaceEx. You specifically asked this:

alfadriver said:

So who is doing the stupid things and people die?

The answer is the employee did something very stupid. 
 

You also said this:

alfadriver said:

So space travel is stupid, and they deserve to die?  

Absolutely no one said that. 
 

I am absolutely not defending the integrity of SpaceEx. I think I've been very clear in my criticism of them in the thread. 
 

You seem to be taking a position of absolutism that the employees were not at fault, the company was. They had 1 death, it wasn't in space, and it was an employee who did something stupid. That's all. 
 

I understand your aversion to Musk.  He's a disrupter. Ford is a better company. He and SpaceEx should take responsibility for their actions. You and I totally agree. 
 

Attacking Bobzilla or anyone else here for also noticing the employee berkeleyed up with tragic consequences is not necessary. 
 

And as noted earlier, I'm not sure OSHA requires hi-vis clothing in this industry. It would sure be smart to have, and it's kinda dumb to not use it, but no laws were broken. Elon is an eccentric oddball, but doesn't have to like yellow if he doesn't want to. 

In reply to SV reX :

I was trying to get a clarification of bob's posts.  That's it.  Don't read more into those specific posts than asking what in the world was his point.  I even posted that clarification.  I could not tell if bob meant that space travel is high risk/high reward, and the danger in that meant that deaths happen or not- and how that relates to stupid actions.  The "stupid" action taken has nothing to do with space travel at all, other than the company it happened at.  Which may or may not be a trend that is important.

At what point does someone's stupid actions become negligent and start harming other people?  And when do we care?  I get that this specific person did a dumb thing, and he paid the price- it happens.  But does it change if someone asked them to do this?  

There's another thread going on right now where someone's really stupid action resulted in killing other people, and the response there was that the person should not have even been driving- meaning that justice system should have stopped him.  But I'm not sure where the line in for rich billionaire companies based on what has been posted here.  

If someone makes a known bad decision, and the result is death and or destruction- who does that fall onto?

Ok. forget about traveling TO some where. All you have to do is observe each of the entangled particles that make you up. At that point you should exist somewhere else. Might be scattered around some And no, I'm not stoned.

In reply to alfadriver :

Of course it changes if someone asked him to do it. There is ZERO evidence that happened. 

In reply to alfadriver :

alfadriver said:

If someone makes a known bad decision, and the result is death and or destruction- who does that fall onto?

Pretty sure we've covered this. 
 

The decision is THEIRS.  If it happens in a workplace, then the decision to properly train them (or not) to avoid the incident is the COMPANY's.

In this situation, I think the government has also been negligent. OSHA failed to follow through with their mandate to ensure workplace safety and if they had, it's likely the death could have been avoided, and many of the injuries that have happened at SpaceEx could have been avoided or minimized.

This doesn't seem hard to me. It's not just the jackass rich guy who is to blame. 

In reply to SV reX :

There are more companies and employees than there are OSHA inspectors.  Like it or not OSHA is a very reactive organization due to demand.  If no one tells them to go look they won't even be aware in most cases.  
 

This is why as part of my job I have an OSHA point man for my job.  
 

Heck I even identified an OSHA issue.  And by law they have until 2030 to fix it. I hope to be retired or in a different position by then.  
 

No amount of regulation can fix stupid.  

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

I understand that.  Doesn't change that they failed. 
 

They don't even seem to notice that SpaceEx hasn't filed the required reports for the last 7 years. That's barely an administrative function. It could literally be performed automatically. 
 

The Reuters investigation uncovered over 600 incidents, many of which included medical treatment. All hospitals and medical providers are required to file reports when there is a work related injury.

OSHA is reactive, but didn't react to a damned thing. 

Plus, OSHA is not solely reactive. Some of what they do is investigative, and they target companies with track records. 
 

When an OSHA investigator arrives in a town, the first thing they do is go to the public records in the Permit Office. They look at current permits pulled, and compare them to a list they have of previous violations. "Oh look... Jones Construction is doing a job on Main St. We issued a violation to them last year for safety glasses.  Let's go check on THAT job and see if we catch them at any repeat violations".

No need to check on Smith Construction. There are no previous violations.  If Smith is doing a job across the street from Jones, they might check. Otherwise no.

The reason they do this is because repeat violations carry larger fines.  That safety glasses violation may have been $10,000 the first time, but it could be 6 figures the second time. For EACH occurrence. So, if 6 guys are not wearing their safety glasses, $600K. And if there is a third time, it becomes willful negligence, and the fines could put most companies out of business. 
 

If they cared about safety, they'd check on Smith.  Since they've never been cited, it would make sense to enlighten them. But the money is more important. So go for Jones. 
 

In this situation, SpaceEx was a known repeat offender. OSHA was grossly negligent to fail to check on them.

But OSHA is ignorant to issues in a high tech environment, and would rather avoid checking them than have to figure out how to train their inspectors properly to know what they are looking at.

Nope. I'm not letting them off the hook. Not at all. 
 

Makes me wonder who got bribed. 

In reply to alfadriver :

Tell me you didn't read the article without telling me you didn't read the article. Employee volunteered to sit on the insulation when they realized they didn't have straps in the truck. 

alfadriver said:

In reply to SV reX :

I was trying to get a clarification of bob's posts.  That's it.  Don't read more into those specific posts than asking what in the world was his point.  I even posted that clarification.  I could not tell if bob meant that space travel is high risk/high reward, and the danger in that meant that deaths happen or not- and how that relates to stupid actions.  The "stupid" action taken has nothing to do with space travel at all, other than the company it happened at.  Which may or may not be a trend that is important.

At what point does someone's stupid actions become negligent and start harming other people?  And when do we care?  I get that this specific person did a dumb thing, and he paid the price- it happens.  But does it change if someone asked them to do this?  

There's another thread going on right now where someone's really stupid action resulted in killing other people, and the response there was that the person should not have even been driving- meaning that justice system should have stopped him.  But I'm not sure where the line in for rich billionaire companies based on what has been posted here.  

If someone makes a known bad decision, and the result is death and or destruction- who does that fall onto?

That other thread is about a repeat offender, high on drugs making more poor choices. It has about as much to do with this as my butt and the moon.

In reply to bobzilla :

Well, "mooning" DOES have something to do with a butt! 

I cant believe anyone is surprised by OSHA failures. They are a revenue-generating agency not a safety agency. Osha wont and cant protect you, your safety is on you.

Also I cant stand the saying "safety first." Its a platitude that means nothing. Safety is never first, we make calculations and compromises on safety every day, otherwise, we would all stay at home. An example that's common here, racing. Racing isnt safe, we decide to race, then we try to make it safe.

SV reX said:

In reply to bobzilla :

Well, "mooning" DOES have something to do with a butt! 

I am so glad someone caught that. 

[TANGENT!!}

Let be very clear here though, Bob is not saying that he has never been caught with his pants down, just that it was not necessarily an intentional act of "mooning".  Right?

bobzilla said:

 

That other thread is about a repeat offender, high on drugs making more poor choices. It has about as much to do with this as my butt and the moon.

Totally disagree,  you are JUST limiting your point to the specific story in the article.  If there is a core of negligence in a company that ends up killing their workers when they had no idea of that risk, there is relationship between the negligent drug using driver and the managers who are risking their employees.  Negligence is negligence.  

No, I didn't read the article.  But how many people are justifying the accident because of SpaceX is doing space travel which is high risk/high reward?  You even pointed out that space travel is high risk/high reward.  But that is completely irrelevant to the accident other than it's SpaceX and not Alfadriver Engineering Consultation.  

It's not as if space travel managers have not made really bad decisions that they should not have.  And it cost people's lives.  The poor choice in sending up the Challenger had the same effect on what the drug using driver guy did- it was a preventable choice that ended up killing innocent people. 

Forgive me that I have extrapolated some concern over SpaceX, given the launch that destroyed the launch tower (which could have easily killed the a passenger in that van), the claim that Elon's feelings prevents people from wearing neon colored safety clothing, and the rather easily stopped death of a person who climbed on a pile of stuff.  Others have extrapolated that space travel is dangerous, so we should expect this, so IMHO, extrapolating a concern of a pattern like this is fair.

I ver much don't understand why suggesting that Elon is not exactly working with a full deck is such a horrible thing, either.  He's not Nicola Tesla, nor is he Thomas Edison.  He's not done any of the actual tech- he's thrown his money as things and thankfully other people are super enthusiastic about EVs and space travel.

I'm done now, you can keep thinking this is all ok.  Go and worship at the feet of Musk.  He loves that.

In reply to alfadriver :

Not me. I read the article. 

In reply to alfadriver :

alfadriver said:

If there is a core of negligence in a company that ends up killing their workers when they had no idea of that risk...

That didn't happen. There is no evidence that the worker had no idea of the risk. He was a retired US Marine. I GUARANTEE he had been through many, many training programs that made it clear that that riding in the back of a moving vehicle unsecured was unsafe. 
 

There was a lot of bad that happened, but the specific examples you are claiming are fabricated. 
 

Hating Elon Musk is perfectly ok. Hell, the dude hates yellow!

alfadriver said:

I ver much don't understand why suggesting that Elon is not exactly working with a full deck is such a horrible thing, either.  He's not Nicola Tesla, nor is he Thomas Edison.  He's not done any of the actual tech- he's thrown his money as things and thankfully other people are super enthusiastic about EVs and space travel.

Musk is a visionary industrialist.  No, he's not the guy who invented the tech his various companies, but he's the one who identified the inventions as promising, promoted them, funded them, built the teams to develop them, and pushed them through to successful products.  Do not underestimate how difficult that is -- I certainly couldn't do it and I'm pretty sure neither could you.  You don't get to be the wealthiest guy in the world (on paper at least) by just "throwing money at things".

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Musk may not be the scientist those people are, but he may very well have a lot in common with Henry Ford.

Which is incredibly amusing. 

SV reX said:

Musk may not be the scientist those people are, but he may very well have a lot in common with Henry Ford.

Which is incredibly amusing. 

Yes.  Musk is in the same category as Henry Ford, Howard Hughes, and Steve Jobs.

In reply to RevRico :

Your assertions about quantum entanglement = FTL comms are not correct. 

Wikipedia

SV reX said:

In reply to alfadriver :

alfadriver said:

If there is a core of negligence in a company that ends up killing their workers when they had no idea of that risk...

That didn't happen. There is no evidence that the worker had no idea of the risk. He was a retired US Marine. I GUARANTEE he had been through many, many training programs that made it clear that that riding in the back of a moving vehicle unsecured was unsafe. 
 

There was a lot of bad that happened, but the specific examples you are claiming are fabricated. 
 

Hating Elon Musk is perfectly ok. Hell, the dude hates yellow!

Having been in the military, I never got a briefing that outlined not to do that.

Having been in the USAF and not the USMC.... I can't guarantee there isn't a safety briefing specifically targeting Marines for that knowledge.