"Hey, you've, uh (crack) got a taillight out."
"Hey, you've, uh (crack) got a taillight out."
I don't understand what's wrong about profiling. It just makes good sense.
If you're illegal you're illegal whether it's bank robbing, bombing buildings with airplanes or jacking cars, tresspassing or illegally in a country. Wrong is wrong. I don't understand what's so hard to understand about that.
It must be one of those west coast things. While I really appreciate the spirit of many of the Hispanics or Latinos who have setttled in East Tenn(in some ways, they understand the free enterprise system better than the locals who seem to only want to be addicted to some artificial stimulant), the reality is that most are not legal and just leaches on the system. Calif fought and lost this battle years ago; here's hoping that no other state subcumbs to the illness.
Datsun1500 wrote: In reply to Knurled: Nope, only Citizens. From the 14th Admendment: Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws
Nowhere does the Arizona statute short circuit due process. Even if arrested, said illegal gets to go thought the process.
About profiling: Hispanic person 1 is driving a Honda Accord thorgh downtown wherever at 7:30 AM.
Hispanic person 2 is driving a 15 passenger van a mile from the border at 2AM.
Which one is more likely to get pulled over?
I've been to Mexico 3 times. Each time we were warned as we filled out the Customs forms during the flight that if we were there past the time we said we were going to leave then there could be serious consequences.
GameboyRMH wrote:aussiesmg wrote: Absolutely, how many of these idiots in LA have actually read the bill, there is no way it can be seen as being based on race, it is based upon being a legal resident and showing proof of legality if you are stopped for any other legal purpose. It is not dis-similar to the Federal law that the Federal Government refuses to enforce. I hope LA continues this, because they are doing so well with their own problems, they will only hurt their residents further. The only reason they are behind this is in an obvious attempt to gain minority votes. What ever happened to being for the good of the people (US People). Oh and I came here legally and eventually became a citizen, why can't these illegals do the same.What sucks is that it implicitly allows racial profiling. If you were Hispanic-looking, would you want to live in Arizona right now?
Dude have you ever heard me talk, not being Mexican looking has nothing to do with it, I have an accent and am subject to the same questions, I was made to produce documents while on a bus several years, of course I was here legally and had my Visa and Passport, the officers said, "Thank you sir, have a nice day"
This was a case of profiling everybody in a Greyhound bus in New Mexico at 4am, under Federal regulations.
I would live in Arizona in a heart beat, they seem to be the only state willing to protect the US citizens being murdered daily by the illegals crossing private property. I would and have offered to join the service as a border guard. Seems I am too old.....
carguy123 wrote: I don't understand what's wrong about profiling. It just makes good sense. If you're illegal you're illegal whether it's bank robbing, bombing buildings with airplanes or jacking cars, tresspassing or illegally in a country. Wrong is wrong. I don't understand what's so hard to understand about that.
warning RANT ahead....
Sooo, i suppose fourth and fifth amendment rights are of no consequence when its inconvenient? and the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, that only applies if your not (insert race here.) I could be wrong, but I dont think many anglo's are going to be asked to prove their citizens when they get pulled over...
The Nazis rounded up people based on their looks as well, used profiling... good guys eh?
I have been not only pulled over, but ARRESTED just because the officers "thought" i "might" be Mexican, for running a stop sign i was stopped at for over 5 minutes and for not wearing a seat belt i had on. I was called all sorts of racially derogatory names, and accused of all sorts of nasty things. I had to post bail, and later explain to my employer what had happened and again relive my humiliation. A few months later one of the officers was fired, and the other suspended in liu of the massive legal actions I was threatening. I know about ten words of Spanish i learned in two years of Spanish class in high school.
My family has served in the us military since before the war of 1812, my uncle was one of the first Latinos to be promoted to the rank general in the US Army, he earned TWO stars before he retired having served in post WWII (europe, ) Korea and Vietnam. My grandfather served in WW2, my great grandfather served in ww1, and on and on. have cousins serving right now in both Iraq and Afghanistan. and thats just a small sample, i had ten uncles, all of them served, four didnt come home. I served in the US Navy, and trained as a SEAL (until i almost died and they sent me home early, and thats all Im allowed to say about it.) Many of my cousins served in all of the branches of the armed forces, from the rangers to manning missile silo's, and everything in between.
Under the Arizona law, if any of us got pulled over for any reason, we would need to prove we are citizens...
THATS NOT OKAY... Thats not what my family has fought for, for over 200 years...
There are many, many other ways to address the illegal immigrant issues without placing at risk the rights and liberties that were hard earned, with blood , sweat and tears by US Citizens. Just because the law has a disclosure, does not mean it will be abided by, in fact, its my bet that last part is already being largely ignored with idiotic justifications. It happens often enough without the empowerment Arizona has provided, I shutter to think what is and will happen with that empowerment...
end rant...
924guy wrote:carguy123 wrote: I don't understand what's wrong about profiling. It just makes good sense. If you're illegal you're illegal whether it's bank robbing, bombing buildings with airplanes or jacking cars, tresspassing or illegally in a country. Wrong is wrong. I don't understand what's so hard to understand about that.warning RANT ahead.... Sooo, i suppose fourth and fifth amendment rights are of no consequence when its inconvenient? and the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, that only applies if your not (insert race here.) I could be wrong, but I dont think many anglo's are going to be asked to prove their citizens when they get pulled over... The Nazis rounded up people based on their looks as well, used profiling... good guys eh? I have been not only pulled over, but ARRESTED just because the officers "thought" i "might" be Mexican, for running a stop sign i was stopped at for over 5 minutes and for not wearing a seat belt i had on. I was called all sorts of racially derogatory names, and accused of all sorts of nasty things. I had to post bail, and later explain to my employer what had happened and again relive my humiliation. A few months later one of the officers was fired, and the other suspended in liu of the massive legal actions I was threatening. I know about ten words of Spanish i learned in two years of Spanish class in high school. My family has served in the us military since before the war of 1812, my uncle was one of the first Latinos to be promoted to the rank general in the US Army, he earned TWO stars before he retired having served in post WWII (europe, ) Korea and Vietnam. My grandfather served in WW2, my great grandfather served in ww1, and on and on. have cousins serving right now in both Iraq and Afghanistan. and thats just a small sample, i had ten uncles, all of them served, four didnt come home. I served in the US Navy, and trained as a SEAL (until i almost died and they sent me home early, and thats all Im allowed to say about it.) Many of my cousins served in all of the branches of the armed forces, from the rangers to manning missile silo's, and everything in between. Under the Arizona law, if any of us got pulled over for any reason, we would need to prove we are citizens... THATS NOT OKAY... Thats not what my family has fought for, for over 200 years... There are many, many other ways to address the illegal immigrant issues without placing at risk the rights and liberties that were hard earned, with blood , sweat and tears by US Citizens. Just because the law has a disclosure, does not mean it will be abided by, in fact, its my bet that last part is already being largely ignored with idiotic justifications. It happens often enough without the empowerment Arizona has provided, I shutter to think what is and will happen with that empowerment... end rant...
924 guy, thank you and your family for your service but you don't have a point. What your family has fought for is just what the Arizona is trying to protect and what California failed miserably to do.
Here's what soo many whiners don't understand. Let's forget about the illegal immigrant issue (notice the word "illegal" there, why are you folks trying to protect them?) and go back to terrorists. I don't know the statistics but let's say 90% of attacks on the U.S. by terrorists have been from folks of middle eastern decent and/or Muslim. Now, At the airport you have a line of folks 50 deep waiting to go through security. Out of the 50 10 are clearly of middle eastern decent, the other 40 are from Nebraska. Don't think the 40 honkeys are not going to be looked at but the 10 others will be looked at a little closer.
Now, back to the issue at hand. There is a serious issue with ILLEGAL immigrants and the crime that goes with it. I applaud AZ for stepping up and having the stones to do something about it. If you are here in this country legally you may have to carry around proof of that for a while till this issue is under control.
If the south western states had done this 75 years ago the country would be a better place today.
These statements were not pointed at any one here on this board unless stated otherwise.
Datsun1500 wrote: Again, If I am in any other Country, I need to carry proof that I am there legally. Why the demand that it should be different here?
Bingo.
I'll say it again, profiling just makes sense. The guys in the mask speeding away from the bank robbery should be the first ones pulled over. That's profiling. If a call comes that says a whiteman in a green truck just broke into my house and stole my baseball card collection then the police should be stopping green pickup trucks and not cars even if it offends the sensibilities of the truck drivers.
Are you suggesting that the police ought to be targeting black people if there are looking for illegal aliens? That wouldn't make sense because there aren't that many black illegal aliens. Well how about looking at all the whites. No, that doesn't make a lot of sense either for the same reasons, but if they stop a Hispanic gentleman and he barely speaks english or doesn't speak it at all are you saying they should ignore the possibility he might be an illegal just because it offends your sensibilities?
In this particular case I'm sorry that some other Latinos suffer, but my Latino friends are 100% behind laws such as the one in Arizona. They say limiting the number of illegals no matter how you do it helps the image of those that are here legally. The ability to enter and stay illegally cheapens the sacrifices they went thru to be legal. The number of illegals also makes everyone look down on all Mexicans legal or not.
You need to get out of the country more. See what other countries have as laws on their books about visiting, living, working & proof of identity or citizenship. How about doing the flip side and go to Mexico and try to get a job, buy a home, get free healthcare at their hospitals and see how well you fare.
There are many reason that countries control the influx of people, not the least of which is to ensure jobs and benefits for the citizens.
924guy wrote: end rant...
Turn it up to 11 and break off the knob!
Datsun1500 wrote: Again, If I am in any other Country, I need to carry proof that I am there legally. Why the demand that it should be different here?
Other countries suck, so should we! Yay!
Joey
joey48442 wrote:Datsun1500 wrote: Again, If I am in any other Country, I need to carry proof that I am there legally. Why the demand that it should be different here?Other countries suck, so should we! Yay! Joey
Exactly. Other countries torture so we should right?
Datsun and Carguy, I'll tell you what I tell my wife all the time. Stop disrupting this argument with facts, truth and common sense.
It's clear that there are folks here that are ok with illegal aliens here. Or at least they don't want illegal aliens in this country but they would like it if the illegals would politely identify themselves as such so they can be deported with little disruption to other folks. I suppose when these illegals (doesn't that word mean ANYTHING to some of us here?) are pulled over and the tax collector (oops, I mean cop) asks to see his I.D. (he asks to see mine when I'm pulled over and I'm a honky) that's a violation of his rights as someone who broke the law to enter this country and stays here illegally. It's not enough that we provide health care, food assistance and such, we should now look the other way.
In reply to DrBoost:
Silly jeep owners...
Joey
carguy123 wrote: I'll say it again, profiling just makes sense. The guys in the mask speeding away from the bank robbery should be the first ones pulled over. That's profiling. If a call comes that says a whiteman in a green truck just broke into my house and stole my baseball card collection then the police should be stopping green pickup trucks and not cars even if it offends the sensibilities of the truck drivers. Are you suggesting that the police ought to be targeting black people if there are looking for illegal aliens? That wouldn't make sense because there aren't that many black illegal aliens. Well how about looking at all the whites. No, that doesn't make a lot of sense either for the same reasons, but if they stop a Hispanic gentleman and he barely speaks english or doesn't speak it at all are you saying they should ignore the possibility he might be an illegal just because it offends your sensibilities?
Profiling makes sense in general, sure. You might even say racial profiling makes sense in a way - it can work. But it's wrong. It's like pulling over random white dudes when looking for a serial killer, because white dudes are statistically more likely to be serial killers, or pulling over random black dudes when looking for a burglar, etc. Even if it might help, it's wrong. The things that it is wrong to discriminate by are the same things it's wrong to profile by, because they're part of who you are and you have no say in them.
Racial profiling is just racial prejudice used in detective work. I don't understand how people don't see why it's wrong.
You could say it's the same reason cops shouldn't demand DNA samples from random men if there's been a rape - you can be pretty damn sure the criminal was a man, just like you can be pretty damn sure illegal immigrants from south of the US are Hispanic. But with no reason for suspicion other than this match it's wrong to require a person to subject themself to investigation.
i think one big confusion is that so many people here are paranoid that a driver's liscence doesn't prove youre a citizen if you DWL.
But here's the problem with that arguement. If you ARE a citizen, your drivers liscense IS actually all you need to prove/reference your citizenship. Only if you are already committing another offense does an officer have the authority to go further than that.
A cop is granted latitude to ask if you are a citizen or a non-citizen. Thats not the same as asking if you're here illegally, but some people who are up in arms seem to be trying to make it out like it is the same thing.
if you aren't a citizen, the law says you must have your papers with you at all time. If you don't, you're breaking the law.
joey48442 wrote:Datsun1500 wrote: Again, If I am in any other Country, I need to carry proof that I am there legally. Why the demand that it should be different here?Other countries suck, so should we! Yay! Joey
If you're making a bandwagon point, thats fine. But if you seriously have a problem with a non-citizen being expected to carrying their documents with them while they're a guest in another country... -_-
924guy wrote:carguy123 wrote: I don't understand what's wrong about profiling. It just makes good sense. If you're illegal you're illegal whether it's bank robbing, bombing buildings with airplanes or jacking cars, tresspassing or illegally in a country. Wrong is wrong. I don't understand what's so hard to understand about that.warning RANT ahead.... Sooo, i suppose fourth and fifth amendment rights are of no consequence when its inconvenient? and the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, that only applies if your not (insert race here.) I could be wrong, but I dont think many anglo's are going to be asked to prove their citizens when they get pulled over... The Nazis rounded up people based on their looks as well, used profiling... good guys eh? I have been not only pulled over, but ARRESTED just because the officers "thought" i "might" be Mexican, for running a stop sign i was stopped at for over 5 minutes and for not wearing a seat belt i had on. I was called all sorts of racially derogatory names, and accused of all sorts of nasty things. I had to post bail, and later explain to my employer what had happened and again relive my humiliation. A few months later one of the officers was fired, and the other suspended in liu of the massive legal actions I was threatening. I know about ten words of Spanish i learned in two years of Spanish class in high school. My family has served in the us military since before the war of 1812, my uncle was one of the first Latinos to be promoted to the rank general in the US Army, he earned TWO stars before he retired having served in post WWII (europe, ) Korea and Vietnam. My grandfather served in WW2, my great grandfather served in ww1, and on and on. have cousins serving right now in both Iraq and Afghanistan. and thats just a small sample, i had ten uncles, all of them served, four didnt come home. I served in the US Navy, and trained as a SEAL (until i almost died and they sent me home early, and thats all Im allowed to say about it.) Many of my cousins served in all of the branches of the armed forces, from the rangers to manning missile silo's, and everything in between. Under the Arizona law, if any of us got pulled over for any reason, we would need to prove we are citizens... THATS NOT OKAY... Thats not what my family has fought for, for over 200 years... There are many, many other ways to address the illegal immigrant issues without placing at risk the rights and liberties that were hard earned, with blood , sweat and tears by US Citizens. Just because the law has a disclosure, does not mean it will be abided by, in fact, its my bet that last part is already being largely ignored with idiotic justifications. It happens often enough without the empowerment Arizona has provided, I shutter to think what is and will happen with that empowerment... end rant...
Ah. So what you're saying is, the state of Florida has the same law as the Arizona law, you know, the one that allows the cops to "racially profile?" That's why they racially profiled you, right? Of berkeleying course not.
Port St. Lucie/Ft. Pierce cops are ass-hats. I'm sure you already know that. I got pulled over at least once a month there. NO Bull E36 M3! Especially when I was the poor ass berkeleying white minority in Ft. Pierce. I had my car searched more often then not, because I was OBVIOUSLY in the brown part of town to buy drugs.
If the cops in your area suck, do something about it or move.
The law in Arizona allows local officials to do the job that the Federal Gov't won't even PRETEND like they're TRYING to do. Did you see Napolitano dancing around the "Is Arizona's border secure?" question a few weeks ago?
The feds (under EVERY administration in recent history) are doing everything they can to STOP local police from deporting illegals. It's a berkeleying joke.
Call me a racist or a xenophobe if it makes you feel good about yourself (really, I've been called much worse,) but the illegals in the state of GA are a plague that needs to be stopped. Neighborhoods that were peaceful and prosperous 15 years ago have been turned into MS-13 and Latin King run ghettos, and yes, obviously I'm specifically talking about the illegals from our southern border.
It's funny to hear the "They're just here to work" and "They're such hard workers" stereotypes from white people with not a single brown person in a 20 mile radius from where they live. I want to load these berkeleyers on a bus and drive them to Norcross.
I want to drive them through a trailer park and show them the houses with a brand new dually diesel quad cab 4 X 4 pickup parked out front, and explain to them how sweet life is when you not only don't pay taxes, but also TAKE a grand or more a month out of your sucker of a taxpaying neighbor's pocket, and get 100% free healthcare any time you want it by going to the emergency room and sticking the GA taxpayers with the tab. What's even better? In a lot of Georgia counties, if you're brown, speak spanish, and get pulled over with no driver's license, you don't even get booked! You're given a notice to appear, which means nothing, as you've given the cop a fake name and address. God help you if you're white and speak english though, then you're the taxpaying enemy who gets hit with more taxes in the way of fines!
Sorry for the rant. I'm NOT advocating racial profiling. I'm NOT in any way against ANY legal immigrant of ANY race or from ANY country (my BEST friend is here on a work visa.) But this attitude that illegals are not a problem, and that the gov't has no right to stop the problem is dead wrong.
joey48442 wrote: In reply to blaze86vic: Funny how it's being a leader when it's something you want, but a follower when it's something you don't. Joey
It's not about what you want as a person, it's about what the people want. The people of California (no offense to yall, but....) have some pretty screwed up concepts of what should and shouldn't be government regulated. And the leaders of that state tend to be very good leaders, doing things that no other state would dare do (at least for another few years). None of which I approve of, but I'm also not part of that locality, so it's not my opinion that matters.
GlennS wrote: Hello Mexican person. We have no reason to search you but please present your papers to prove your citizenship. While we have your stuff we will go ahead and run a check for any outstanding warrants etc..... oh and while your stopped could we go ahead and search you and your car. If you give us permission were aloud to do it! Oh you forgot your papers at home and your of south american descent. Thats cool, your under arrest. Good white people of Arizona, continue on your way.
If you are a citizen, you show your license, they look you up in the squad car, and they give you your speeding ticket, and your license back. Oh, you don't have your license, just give me your social security number so I can verify you are who you say you are, and here is your speeding ticket with your citation for not carrying proper identification while operating a motor vehicle on public roadways.
Irrelevant of what ethnicity you look like, the computer will still tell the officer if you have any outstanding warrants. Hate to brake it to ya, but you aren't getting in trouble for outstanding warrants because you are Hispanic.....it's because you have an OUTSTANDING WARRANT!!
joey48442 wrote: In reply to DrBoost: Silly jeep owners... Joey
Man, I wish I was a Jeep owner still...........
By the way, the Arizona expressly states that questioning because of race is prohibited making all arguments in this thread against the Arizona Law stupid and blatantly false.
Read the bill before you make yourself look even more foolish
This section shall be enforced without regard to race, color, religion, sex, age, disability or national origin. (Look out whitey)
http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/043010_hb2162/
Arguing that the cop will breach the law is arbitrary, for then no law would be effective as all cops will do whatever they please despite any written law, the point is the law is well written and considered.
Man, I wish I was a Jeep owner still...........
Now we're sounding like a car forum!
DrBoost wrote:joey48442 wrote: In reply to DrBoost: Silly jeep owners... JoeyMan, I wish I was a Jeep owner still...........
I know. Im sorry. You still are one at heart.
Joey
carguy123 wrote:Man, I wish I was a Jeep owner still...........Now we're sounding like a car forum!
Pipe down, you!
Joey
madmallard wrote: i think one big confusion is that so many people here are paranoid that a driver's liscence doesn't prove youre a citizen if you DWL. But here's the problem with that arguement. If you ARE a citizen, your drivers liscense IS actually all you need to prove/reference your citizenship. Only if you are already committing another offense does an officer have the authority to go further than that. A cop is granted latitude to ask if you are a citizen or a non-citizen. Thats not the same as asking if you're here illegally, but some people who are up in arms seem to be trying to make it out like it is the same thing. if you aren't a citizen, the law says you must have your papers with you at all time. If you don't, you're breaking the law.joey48442 wrote:If you're making a bandwagon point, thats fine. But if you seriously have a problem with a non-citizen being expected to carrying their documents with them while they're a guest in another country... -_-Datsun1500 wrote: Again, If I am in any other Country, I need to carry proof that I am there legally. Why the demand that it should be different here?Other countries suck, so should we! Yay! Joey
Kind of. I get tired of all the facebook slacktavism with people talking about "you would be shot immediately if you get caught there illegally". Cause yes, I would rather live in that kind of country
Joey
poopshovel wrote: Ah. So what you're saying is, the state of Florida has the same law as the Arizona law, you know, the one that allows the cops to "racially profile?" That's why they racially profiled you, right? Of berkeleying course not. Port St. Lucie/Ft. Pierce cops are ass-hats. I'm sure you already know that. I got pulled over at least once a month there. NO Bull E36 M3! Especially when I was the poor ass berkeleying white minority in Ft. Pierce. I had my car searched more often then not, because I was OBVIOUSLY in the brown part of town to buy drugs. snipped..
Actually, when i was "profiled," it wasn't in Florida, it was in Illinois. Ive never had an issue with the local police and in fact im acquainted with a few. Not good friends, but friendly enough, they keep trying to recruit me when ever a job opens up ( i made the mistake of mentioning my current profession and past LEO experience to one, word spread fast, its still a small town in that way.) Im sure some are asshats, but lucky for me i havent met those guys yet.
There was mention above about a bus load of people near the border, I submit that is a behavioral indication, not a racial one. Behavioral indicators are perfectly acceptable. If that busload was seen on a back road that is known to access the Canadian border, border patrol or police would be just as justified in pulling them over and investigating as well. You see is is possible to remove race from the equation, and still get your man. Ive been doing it for 20 years... Behavioral indicators are far more reliable and effective, ive never lost a case. Ive also been responsible for the capture of a few hundred illegal aliens (yes hundreds) that have committed crimes, many were deported im sure (that part wasnt up to me) and not one of the cases were initiated by racial factors.
there were some assumptions made in posts following mine. so ill elaborate. I agree that Illegal immigration is a problem. I dont agree that taxpayer money should be spent hunting down all 12 million of them though. 12mil to 13 mil is the estimate the news keeps using, if true, thats more illegals combined than all but 5 states. yes, only 5 states have populations of more than 12 million, two have populations of about 12 mil, and the rest have less than that, according to Wikipedia anyhow. cost to deport, somewhere around 94 billion, give or take a few billion. thats allot of roads and bridges... As a wise friend once told me about his wife, who he hated, its cheaper to keep her, at least I can make some use of her services.
I also agree we need to secure our borders, all of them, south AND North, east and west. stop the in-flow, and export the criminals. as for the rest, give em a shot, fine em, even create a stepped program where they get paid a lower minimum wage and/ or pay a higher tax rate. this allows the business types (not the ones who currently do so, they also need to be held responsible) who traditionally employ illegals, to get a bargain, and maybe the crops will stop rotting in the fields. Yes, it would create a second class citizen, but only temporarily until they earn their right to be treated like the rest of us, and conditions would be far improved over what most of them deal with now. I in no way advocate the legal abuse of anyone, but I do believe those who are here illegally now should have a financial penalty and the opportunity to correct the situation. Turn the problem into revenue and cheap, legal labor. It also discourages further in flow, at least from the ones who want a free ride... OR we can keep spending tax payer money , and expand our laws to abuse peoples rights because its convenient, under the guise of enforcement...
According to a few of you i dont have a point or an argument, I disagree obviously, but you are entitled to your opinion, just as i am mine. A large part of my heritage, and many of yours include several generations that that fought and sacrificed for the right to Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I dont think that includes having to prove they were born here, regardless of racial origin. the Arizona law may claim no discrimination, but i dont see where it says EVERYONE will be asked to prove they are legal citizens, perhaps i missed that part. Without it, its discretionary and targets people that have a darker skin color, because its that race that is the focus of the illegal immigration problems. this makes it racially discriminatory by default, and carries with it a presumption of guilt, regardless of the wording. In my opinion thats just wrong, and DISHONORS the sacrifices all those who have fought for our country made.
In my humble opinion I think Ben Franklin said it best:
Those who would sacrifice Liberty for a little bit of security, deserve neither....
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