Art Fart

Flag Desecration

Sure art is subjective & I understand the need to uphold the first amendment even when the results are offensive so I acknowledge that this is permissible but is it the right thing to do, is it a smart thing to do, does it serve the DNC’s interests; I think not.

Who is this add appealing to…gang bangers…disenfranchised folks that feel our current system of governance is so horrible that any change, regardless of how ill-conceived, would be an improvement.

What percent of the voting population do these groups represent…I bet way, way less than 50%.

So, would somebody please chime in with a pro flag desecration post…I’d love to hear how taking a gigantic E36 M3 on the symbol of our collective values is totally awesome.

I would if I thought that flag desacration was a valid form of expresion. To me that puts you with the people that burn the flag to show how upset they are with the government.

To me, freedom of expresion is not the same a freedom of speach. I may not agree with what you say but I will defend your right to say it. Keep your F'ing hands off the symbol of our country.

In reply to RX Reven':

I don't really have a "how taking a gigantic E36 M3 on the symbol of our collective values is totally awesome" pro-desecration post.

I do wonder who assigned my values to an arbitrary piece of cloth though and then called it sacred.

I look at nations like I look at hotels... a pleasant place to stay. When one becomes run down, too costly or whatever reason... I'd look for another one.

If you say the Hilton that I live in is terrible and poo on a logo... well, really, do I care? I like the Hilton.

Well, I can't see the video, but by its description in the text I will assume:

The point of the video may be that the health care situation in the county is presented as a form of desecration of the "country", the covering of the flag being the visual representation of that.

That said, art means what art means. What it means to you is what it means. Whether you are offended, inspired or uninterested those are all appropriate reactions and kind of the point, to create some sort of reaction be it positive or negative.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: In reply to RX Reven': I don't really have a "how taking a gigantic E36 M3 on the symbol of our collective values is totally awesome" pro-desecration post. I do wonder who assigned my values to an arbitrary piece of cloth though and then called it sacred. I look at nations like I look at hotels... a pleasant place to stay. When one becomes run down, too costly or whatever reason... I'd look for another one. If you say the Hilton that I live in is terrible and poo on a logo... well, really, do I care? I like the Hilton.

I understand your position…here’s a nice little flag that summarizes your point of view:

Now, let the rest of us who appreciate the brilliance, commitment, & sacrifice of our forefathers get on with the business of preserving what they created.

RX Reven' wrote: I understand your position…here’s a nice little flag that summarizes your point of view: Now, let the rest of us who appreciate the brilliance, commitment, & sacrifice of our forefathers get on with the business of preserving what they created.

Gee I thought you posted on an open forum for discussion. I didn't realize you were looking for fan boi outrage.

If that image you failed to link properly is supposed to be some sort of symbol for surrender then I'd say you could apply it to your common sense. That is what fealty requires afterall.

Hi Giant Purple,

You’re right, my reply was a little harsh.

Sorry about that, Brett

RX Reven' wrote: Hi Giant Purple, You’re right, my reply was a little harsh. Sorry about that, Brett

Oh its all right ;)

I have been known to throw gasoline on a fire every now and again for giggles.

I suppose I'm supposed to be offended. Surely that was the intent. Really, it was just a poorly put together, sophomoric attempt at some big controversial statement. If a 6-year-old did it, I'd be pretty impressed. Otherwise, the wall was probably put together and painted with a higher level of craftsmanship than the painting/video.

PS: As far as "what it will do for/to Obama/the DNC/'healthcare reform," I'm guessing the answer is zero.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker said: I do wonder who assigned my values to an arbitrary piece of cloth though and then called it sacred.

This kind of thing is common. People revere crosses for what they mean. Do you have family photos that you enjoy? It's not really your family, but you hold it with a little respect. It would probably make you even just a little bit perturbed if someone desecrated a picture of your mom or grandma. Not because you're worried about the paper it's printed on, but because you know that your loved-one is being disrespected. I wear the American Flag on my shoulder everyday, I don't care about the patch itself (it's not even red, white and blue -- it's brown and black), but I care about what it stands for -- the foundations of our country and the people who have sacrificed their lives -- in whatever fashion -- under that banner in order to try to leave the world a little bit better than it was when they found it. That's why it irritates me when people desecrate it -- it's like they're taking in vain every sacrifice of the people who have tried their best to make the world a better place to be in.

In reply to DustoffDave:

I guess I just don't get all wrapped up in the emotional attachment to symbols. My keychain has an American flag on it but I do not hold it in reverence such that if I lost my keys, the fob would be my first worry.

Agreed. I certainly think it can be taken too far, but it does have at least a small amount of meaning to a majority of people in the states and others should respect that. I don't revere the cross, but I'm not going to go and make a movie of me putting it in all kinds of E36 M3 just to make a statement.

In reply to DustoffDave:

I get it but a part of me likes to see established boundaries challenged. People get this blind allegiance to crosses and flags (and sports teams...) and forget there were supposed to be ideals that the symbol was only the reminder of.

It served it's purpose. That purpose was to get people talking about healthcare.

Mission Accomplished.

I get what they're trying to say, but I think they're going to piss off more people than get people to think about what it means.

What I get from the video is that everyone that's overreacting about healthcare reform is destroying the country. I agree with that. What the filmmaker didn't seem to understand is that this will cause even more people to overreact.

VanillaSky wrote: I get what they're trying to say, but I think they're going to piss off more people than get people to think about what it means. What I get from the video is that everyone that's overreacting about healthcare reform is destroying the country. I agree with that. What the filmmaker didn't seem to understand is that this will cause even more people to overreact.

Well, not every artist rebel with a cause has talent

Like poopshovel said... if he was 6 it would have been impressive.

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:

I don't think it's talent, I think it's brains.

VanillaSky wrote: In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker: I don't think it's talent, I think it's brains.

Some people like to fling fecal matter just to see what sticks.

That takes neither brains nor talent.

VanillaSky wrote: What the filmmaker didn't seem to understand is that this will cause even more people to overreact.

It’s not the filmmaker that I find offensive…there are countless “artists” with very little talent and even less scruples that know they’ll never get noticed unless they resort to sensationalism.

I’m offended by the DNC’s reviewers that made this video one of the twenty finalists. These folks represent the ruling party and they’re signaling that respect, decency, & consideration for other’s values isn’t important…it’s all about shock value, win at any cost, quality is for suckers – take the short cut mentality.

RX Reven' wrote: So, would somebody please chime in with a pro flag desecration post…I’d love to hear how taking a gigantic E36 M3 on the symbol of our collective values is totally awesome.

A flag is just a peice of fabric. Same as my jeans. Am I desecrating the soul of Levi Strauss by wiping my oily hands on them?

A symbol, however, cannot be destroyed. It exists in a collective conscience.

The flag represents freedom, truth, justice. The flag isn't freedom, truth, justice.

It looks like the video is saying that the country has come to value industry, corporations, and profits more than the people that comprise it. I would prefer to live somewhere where the government and its symbols are free to be criticized. The US is awesome, but it is not infallible.

Oftentimes, art has little to do with mastery of technique. Surely there were more skilled artists in the field than Duchamp or Warhol, but the notoriety of their work sparked controversy and ultimately conversation. It looks like the person who created this video was also successful.

As someone who wears a flag on his shoulder every day, I will defend to the death those peoples right to destroy a flag to make a point. Flat out. Soldiers have fought and died to keep America free, so people can have the freedom of speech.

I think people forget freedom of speech goes both ways. If you want people to listen to you, you have to being willing to listen yourself. People get to caught up in this looking patriotic nonsense. Being patriotic is a lot harder than just looking like it.

I get the message from that video. I understand the whole "health care system is ruining America" idea. However I don't get swayed by news ads. I prefer to actually talk to people, review facts, etc.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker said: there were supposed to be ideals that the symbol was only the reminder of.

That's exactly what I'm trying to say. The flag itself, as a piece of fabric, has no meaning. What it (or any symbol for that matter) stands for is what counts. So, I think that if someone desecrates something with the intent to desecrate what it symbolizes, then it becomes an issue.

DustoffDave wrote: So, I think that if someone desecrates something with the intent to desecrate what it symbolizes, then it becomes an issue.

I guess this is the part where we have differing opinions.

Like Drewsifer said - it goes both ways - you can't be free to cherish it if someone else isn't free to hate it. Taking the flag out of picture for a moment...

If I felt like drawing a picture of Mohammad... there are a large number of people to whom that is a huge offense. I don't give a crap. Its my paper and pen and I don't have the same reverence. I don't mean offense but then again I don't care if I cause some either. Not my problem - its the offended guys issue with symbolism.

That was what I was going after - the "desecrater" isn't desecrating anything because to desecrate something you have to place value in the symbol. If you are doing it to get a reaction and draw attention, well... hard to argue its effectiveness.

I get the point he's trying to get across, but it's not going to appeal to a wide audience. It's not that only "gangbangers and crackwhores" will be able to relate to it, but that it's divisive. Your upper-middle class suburbanite will be put off by the "low-class urban" theme(1), and the flag desecration aspect of it is going to be controversial(1)

(1)Exhibit A: first post