Audiophiles: Console Vacuum Tube Stereos??

I've been on this kick lately: Vacuum tube aplifiers and their magical powers. I'm currently planning and researching a kit build of a Fender Champ, all tube, guitar amp, but I've strayed into Hi-Fi territory lately. Looking at stereo tube kits gets expensive quickly so I started looking for used gear which is, usually, also expensive. Then the 'Ah-ha!' moment: Large console stereos with record players and speakers built right into the furniture. Going back to the '60s or so will get you the longer, lower style of cabinet and some of them are still tube amplifiers!

If I get something like this it will probably be for some light vinyl and radio use in my bar area.

So here are the discussion points:

Do they sound good?

Are they worth having a good deal of floor space taken up just for tube sound? (I do have room for one if it sounds good...)

Do you have any experience with them?

What manufactures where the 'good ones'?

What to stay away from?

What about prices? I've found prices ranging from $40 to $200 for working and non-working pieces.

This is picture of something I'd be interested in, as long as it's tube amplified (and preferably tube rectified, too):

As to the first three... i've never heard one sound good by modern standards, and i wouldn't consider them worth the space.

They're better as collectors items than to actually listen to for the most part.

I would still start with just a stereo amp. Look into "Yaqin" brand if you want to get your feet wet on a budget.

What about the Dumont brand? Any better? http://appleton.craigslist.org/clt/2967379380.html

I'm also trying to fix an old solid state PA amp right now too. So if there are comments about things failing and needing to be replaced... I kinda like that...

I don't really know anything about the brands... i've just heard about a half dozen of these things in good shape and they all sounded like i was watching a 50s movie. Which... i suppose would be period correct, but not really what i envision when i want to get some listening done.

Music NOT recorded in the 50s sounds weird when it's made to sound like it was recorded in the 50s.

There's just so many compromises being made with these consoles, that it's really hard to get what i'd be looking for out of them.

Based on my memories from childhood, so take that into consideration:

They were aimed at mass-market consumers, anyone interested in "hi-fi" probably had components. Most consoles contained low quality tuners and weak amps.

They had "record changers" - you put a stack of LPs on the spindle and at the conclusion of an album side the tonearm would swing away and the next record would drop into position. The tonearm would then move back and drop on the new record.

Many of them were not stereo. Stereo only became popular about the same time as 'solid state'. Consoles were pretty much obsolete by the late 60's.

By the early 70's it was common to find working consoles left on the curb. As teenagers, we quickly figured out that there was nothing worth scavenging. The speakers in particular were crap.

The tubes in them and certain organs could be worth something, though. There's a HUGE vacuum tube sales community on ebay and i'm always on the lookout for an organ to tear apart and hawk the tubes out of.

Very high end consoles from the era sound very, very good. But they're rare and really expensive. Like- really.

The overwhelming majority have turntables I wouldn't want to play a record I valued a lot on. There are exceptions- if you get one, make sure to google the turntable and see if it's any good.

Typically the speakers aren't so hot. Many times, upgrading the speakers in the console can make a big difference. But sometimes, the pre-amp section has EQ built into it to 'correct' for the speakers. If that's the case, you have to figure out how to disable that. Sometimes it's easy- sometimes not.

The amps, though- many are really nice and sound very, very good. I don't think I've ever heard a PP EL84 amp that sounded bad. Shoot, I'm listening to a SE EL84 amp from a Magnavox console right now and even this little guy sounds pretty great.

Personally, I don't realy like to trash a working console to pull the amp, especially if the cabinet is in good shape. I've trashed one that was kind of a mess. But there are loads and loads of these amps out there. You can always find them on ebay. If you find one that was just pulled and listed, you can usually get it pretty cheap. A little basic soldering to replace all the power supply caps and wire up a fuse, power cord and maybe a switch and you usually have a working amp. Build a nice little wooden base and you're stylin'.

That's what the little Maggie in my office looked like when I got it. Here it is now.

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/801/maggieel84.jpg/][/URL]

Sorry for the crappy pic, but you get the idea.

My MIL has one that is a solid state Philco. I have played many a vinyl on it and it sounds great. The radio however doesn't sound too bad. I have considered taking it and rewiring it with newer speakers and using it for vinyl. It definitely has some old school charm and I like it.

I have also thought about finding one that Doesnt work and wiring up a newer system that I can hook my iPod up too.

In reply to fast_eddie_72:

I like it. Do you have a build thread that I could look at?

I've found a couple of links of people use Magnavox amps just like yours. That's partially how I got to looking at consoles.

What are the brand names of the high end ones?

The Internet decied that the Maggies sound better so they tend to cost more. It's kinda silly though.

That little guy is only 2 or 3 watts pre channel. If you google Magnavox 8601 you'll find lots of info on that amp. It's best for iPod office systems and such.

My "good" tube amp is from a Motorola console- it's also EL84s, but PP, so probably 10 wpc ish. In reality, that's plenty with reasonable speakers at reasonable levels.

Here me out on this, a good turntable, with a good needle run into a small tube amp, 200$, then headphones is going to blow away a lot of high dollar stuff.

Plus they take up very little space and are SWMBO friendly.

As a example.

I would put my headphone rig, (DAC/Tube Little Dot + Grado RS2i/SR325i) ~1.2K new

toe to toe, seriously.

Two channel system (Tube DAC / Rogue Audio tube/amp front end with Martin Logan Prodigies + Depth) ~45K new

RossD wrote: Do you have any experience with them?

That looks identical to the one my grandparents had new and gave to my parents for us kids to use in the basement. It wasn't bad, but the teen me wasn't paying that much attention to the quality of the sound. Just happy to have some tunes to compliment the slot car track in the corner. Sadly it went out in bulk trash when my folks were moving.

wearymicrobe wrote: Here me out on this, a good turntable, with a good needle run into a small tube amp, 200$, then headphones is going to blow away a lot of high dollar stuff. Plus they take up very little space and are SWMBO friendly. As a example. I would put my headphone rig, (DAC/Tube Little Dot + Grado RS2i/SR325i) ~1.2K new toe to toe, seriously. Two channel system (Tube DAC / Rogue Audio tube/amp front end with Martin Logan Prodigies + Depth) ~45K new

There are a lot of ways to crack the nut.

I'd put my Denon POA 2400, Thorens TD124, Rotel pre-amp and AR LST 2s up against an expensive new system. I have less than a grand, but a load of time invested in it all.

It all depends on what you want to do. Headphones can be a great experience, but a different experience.

fast_eddie_72 wrote:

wearymicrobe wrote: Here me out on this, a good turntable, with a good needle run into a small tube amp, 200$, then headphones is going to blow away a lot of high dollar stuff. Plus they take up very little space and are SWMBO friendly. As a example. I would put my headphone rig, (DAC/Tube Little Dot + Grado RS2i/SR325i) ~1.2K new toe to toe, seriously. Two channel system (Tube DAC / Rogue Audio tube/amp front end with Martin Logan Prodigies + Depth) ~45K new

There are a lot of ways to crack the nut. I'd put my Denon POA 2400, Thorens TD124, Rotel pre-amp and AR LST 2s up against an expensive new system. I have less than a grand, but a load of time invested in it all. It all depends on what you want to do. Headphones can be a great experience, but a different experience.

I'm with this guy.

I'd put my modded Onkyo M5150, Pioneer 51FD, B&K Reference 5 S2, and Paradigm Legend V.3s up against an expensive new system. I'm also a touch under a grand and lots of time in it.

I think a 3CX1500 would work well as a final amp in Class A. Ooooh, yeah... some 3CX1500, that's what you need.

In reply to Dr. Hess:

Now you're talking! I got a tour of our transmitter a couple of years ago. Yup, our brand new, digital TV transmitter uses one of those huge tubes. No idea what it is, but it's flippin' huge! I kept wondering if I could figure out how to make an amp out of it lol.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

fast_eddie_72 wrote:

wearymicrobe wrote: Here me out on this, a good turntable, with a good needle run into a small tube amp, 200$, then headphones is going to blow away a lot of high dollar stuff. Plus they take up very little space and are SWMBO friendly. As a example. I would put my headphone rig, (DAC/Tube Little Dot + Grado RS2i/SR325i) ~1.2K new toe to toe, seriously. Two channel system (Tube DAC / Rogue Audio tube/amp front end with Martin Logan Prodigies + Depth) ~45K new

There are a lot of ways to crack the nut. I'd put my Denon POA 2400, Thorens TD124, Rotel pre-amp and AR LST 2s up against an expensive new system. I have less than a grand, but a load of time invested in it all. It all depends on what you want to do. Headphones can be a great experience, but a different experience.

I'm with this guy. I'd put my modded Onkyo M5150, Pioneer 51FD, B&K Reference 5 S2, and Paradigm Legend V.3s up against an expensive new system. I'm also a touch under a grand and lots of time in it.

Man that's good value for money. What type of room setup do you have, SQF, treatments that sort of thing..

I went huge because its in the great room of the house ~1200sqf with the french doors open.

I sold the monster system when we moved to the new house, and put ~12 hidden speakers in the ceiling and run them off the laptop and a decent digital Yamaha amp.receiver. As must as I loved the old system the ne one is one button and on, lets me pipe grooveshark/pandora through the house and does not heat up the house like crazy.

I do have one of these monsters in the garage right now, need to refinish the case, but it puts out some good noise.

wearymicrobe wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

fast_eddie_72 wrote:

wearymicrobe wrote: Here me out on this, a good turntable, with a good needle run into a small tube amp, 200$, then headphones is going to blow away a lot of high dollar stuff. Plus they take up very little space and are SWMBO friendly. As a example. I would put my headphone rig, (DAC/Tube Little Dot + Grado RS2i/SR325i) ~1.2K new toe to toe, seriously. Two channel system (Tube DAC / Rogue Audio tube/amp front end with Martin Logan Prodigies + Depth) ~45K new

There are a lot of ways to crack the nut. I'd put my Denon POA 2400, Thorens TD124, Rotel pre-amp and AR LST 2s up against an expensive new system. I have less than a grand, but a load of time invested in it all. It all depends on what you want to do. Headphones can be a great experience, but a different experience.

I'm with this guy. I'd put my modded Onkyo M5150, Pioneer 51FD, B&K Reference 5 S2, and Paradigm Legend V.3s up against an expensive new system. I'm also a touch under a grand and lots of time in it.

Man that's good value for money. What type of room setup do you have, SQF, treatments that sort of thing.. I went huge because its in the great room of the house ~1200sqf with the french doors open. I sold the monster system when we moved to the new house, and put ~12 hidden speakers in the ceiling and run them off the laptop and a decent digital Yamaha amp.receiver. As must as I loved the old system the ne one is one button and on, lets me pipe grooveshark/pandora through the house and does not heat up the house like crazy.

What you've got there will be in my dream house. I would love the idea of being able to walk into any room in the house and have the music follow me.

My room setup is quite less than ideal. 12x16 living room that opens to the kitchen, strange angles in ceiling, just a pair of panels on each 16' wall. Unfortunately, the speakers are on the long wall due to layout of apartment. I haven't spent much time/money on treatments because i know it's somewhat of a losing battle, and it's just an apartment that i'll probably move out of within the next year anyways.

I can safely say the Paradigms need a MUCH larger space to dig in. They overpower the room in a hurry if i start to get a little happy with the volume knob.

The 247wpc the modded Oinker supplies at 8ohms probably isn't hurting things, either.

In reply to wearymicrobe:

Nice. I have a 2230 in my office as part of my "reciever museum" - aka, all the gear my wife wanted out of the house but I didn't want to get rid of. Yours is in much, much nicer shape than mine though.

fast_eddie_72 wrote: In reply to wearymicrobe: Nice. I have a 2230 in my office as part of my "reciever museum" - aka, all the gear my wife wanted out of the house but I didn't want to get rid of. Yours is in much, much nicer shape than mine though.

Thats just a pic I pulled off the net. Mine is mechanically perfect, it even still has its original plastic no smudge cover over the front. The big thing is someone over the years varnished the wood terribly. I have some leftover koa veneer and I am going to redo the outside at some point.

I will say with the speakers get a ZONE amplifier, I have the house on the main zone and the two speakers in the garage (BOSE outdoor) hooked up to the second. I almost wish I had a third for the backyard.

It did take ages to wire up though, spent almost two weekends in the attic installing the speakers and wiring. I eventually went and snagged a airport/express on ebay which lets me use the optical in for the amp, simplified the whole thing.

In reply to wearymicrobe:

Sorry I'm such a threadjack on this- I love audio stuff.

A simple solution to more amp channels- just for listening in other rooms etc- is a little T-Amp. Can hide it anywhere. I use one to drive the center channel in my home theater. These things are pretty amazing. Cost almost nothing and sound absolutely great.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=310-300

I have a couple of those Lepais. But there are units on ebay that look a lot nicer. Little guy will blow you away. I've used them with very nice speakers, and honestly, I could live with it as my main amp if I had to. Just be careful not to drive them hard. If you push on them, the distortion goes through the roof and you'd risk a tweeter if you abused it like that for long. But at normal volumes, which that little guy can do easily, they're awesome.

bludroptop wrote: Consoles were pretty much obsolete by the late 60's. By the early 70's it was common to find working consoles left on the curb. As teenagers, we quickly figured out that there was nothing worth scavenging. The speakers in particular were crap.

Wait! These things were "obsolete" 50 years ago? My Dad still has one sitting in his living room. I believe it's a Sears Silvertone. Works fine, so far as I know. Next time I call him I'll ask him while I'm talking to him on his rotary dial phone.

I have a few of them. Not sure which ones are tubed, but I could check. One detail though, if you come to get one I'm loading the rest of them on/in/chained to whatever you drive/ride/pedal and you have take them all.

Console stereos and electric organs are too cool to let others toss out, but also too large and worthless to keep around...

petegossett wrote: I have a few of them. Not sure which ones are tubed, but I could check. One detail though, if you come to get one I'm loading the rest of them on/in/chained to whatever you drive/ride/pedal and you have take them all. Console stereos and electric organs are too cool to let others toss out, but also too large and worthless to keep around...

You're gonna fit right in with the Europa group, Pete. It's just amazing that it took you this long.

In reply to Dr. Hess:

Lol, um "Thanks!!!"(???)