Average wages in China

The article is a couple years old, but I'm sure the numbers can't be that different. I do custom work. I won't go into details as it'd be uncouth to advertise my business without paying the kind folks at GRM, and not to glorify what I do as something that requires an unbelievable amount of skill, but it is a skilled trade, and I make things one piece at a time. Here. In my shop. In America. DAILY I have people say "But I only paid (fraction of the price I'm quoting) for (hunk of E36 M3 made by 8 year old Chinese girl sitting on carboard box knocking out 8,000 of said hunk of E36 M3 a day or else she gets a beatin'.)

Just a friendly reminder that if you want something handmade in the U.S., you're gonna have to pay a motherberkeleyer a little more than 75 cents an hour.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/08/business/global/08wages.html

Sorry. It's just one of those berkeleyin days where I've gotten it all day today.

Customer: "(insert number) DOLL-ARS??? Are you kidding me???"

Me: "Well, you know, I had to do some unexpected maintenance on the Ferrari this month...."

Customer: (deer in headlights.)

PS: My shop labor rate is $40 an hour, which is insanely reasonable for my industry, and I have no qualms about saying I'm good at what I do. Was $35 till I killed all my competition. I try to keep it low to stay competitive, and as I'm in the mountains, I try to be respectful, reasonable, and helpful to the locals.

Wow, I think I got lung cancer by looking at that pic. Also, If I do want custom work, I'm willing to pay for it. I'm 'merican like that.

I only see good things from china raising the minium rate. Eventually it will cost too much to make stuff there and transport it back here... so manufactoring will return

poopshovel, what do you do for a living?

In reply to mad_machine:

One would think and I would hope so. But I would say they would just find another country first if they could.

PHeller wrote: poopshovel, what do you do for a living?

Hand-blown glass 'marital aids.'

Jokes. I'm not going to pimp my business here.

poopshovel wrote: Just a friendly reminder that if you want something handmade in the U.S., you're gonna have to pay a motherberkeleyer a little more than 75 cents an hour.

I just wrote a big ass check to some super-smart, experienced guys who put my limited slip in for me. I've rarely been more happy to do it. Ironically, given your post, the shop is called "All American 4x4 and auto repair". They opened in 1974 - a family run business. The grand daughter of the guy who started it picked me up at the light rail station so I could get my car back. Everyone nice as could be. Turns out, the grandfather is the guy who did my LSD. One of the younger guys said he sat back at his bench for hours getting it just right.

I don't anticipate any problems.

poopshovel wrote: PS: My shop labor rate is $40 an hour, which is insanely reasonable for my industry, and I have no qualms about saying I'm good at what I do. Was $35 till I killed all my competition. I try to keep it low to stay competitive, and as I'm in the mountains, I try to be respectful, reasonable, and helpful to the locals.

You are doing it wrong. Double your labour rate, and the cheap berkeleys will disappear, you will do roughly the same amount of work, and make more money from people who appreciate it.

Streetwiseguy wrote:

poopshovel wrote: PS: My shop labor rate is $40 an hour, which is insanely reasonable for my industry, and I have no qualms about saying I'm good at what I do. Was $35 till I killed all my competition. I try to keep it low to stay competitive, and as I'm in the mountains, I try to be respectful, reasonable, and helpful to the locals.

You are doing it wrong. Double your labour rate, and the cheap berkeleys will disappear, you will do roughly the same amount of work, and make more money from people who appreciate it.

You are probably spot berkeleying on.

mad_machine wrote: I only see good things from china raising the minium rate. Eventually it will cost too much to make stuff there and transport it back here... so manufactoring will return

China is already outsourcing our outsourced work to Vietnam.

mad_machine wrote: I only see good things from china raising the minium rate. Eventually it will cost too much to make stuff there and transport it back here... so manufactoring will return

isn't that what they said when they moved jobs to mexico, then japan, then hong kong, then china proper?... and i'm sure there are a few other countries mixed in... it just moves to the next "emerging industrial country" that will work for peanuts...

it just moves to the next "emerging industrial country" that will work for peanuts...

And I see nothing wrong with that. They get to boost their economy and companies build factories and other support items in their country which helps everyone there even if some fat cat is raking off most of the $$$. That also keeps costs down for the consumer.

You've got to remember that what is peanuts to us is Millionaire status for someone else. Of course it does change the "climate" of the country and some of their values, but who are we to say that you must stay backwards just because we think it's quaint.

In the beginning . . . some smart business man said how can I (out) compete with my competitors and he came up with a way to cut his costs and the prices and gain more business. I'm sure the fat cat big businessman was just doing what the little guys along the border had been doing for decades. I've read in the old Western books about how much more for the money the cowboys could get by using Mexican craftsmen.

While it's smart it also has some ramifications to the country at large, BUT it's not his job to run the country. As a matter of fact it doesn't seem to be anyone's job anymore.

And I can't say that I like many of the ramifications of doing things this way, but that in no way makes it wrong for the businessman to do it that way.

mguar wrote: China has had to raise wages to keep college graduates in China.. Realize that China is graduating 3 times as many engineers from college as America is and that doesn't even count the Chinese here in America under student visa's.(or Europe for that matter)

Do some research on it, there is a reason people still come here to get their education.

"According to a 2005 McKinsey and Company Global Institute labor study, only about 10 percent of China’s engineers, and 25 percent of India’s, can compete in the global market.

In the United States, 84,898 of the engineering degrees awarded were associate degrees. When it comes to per capita engineering graduates, the race isn’t even close. The U.S. awarded 758 degrees per million citizens. China gave 497 degrees per million citizens, and India 199. The report adds that the Chinese figures, which collect numbers from different provinces that have no standardized definition of engineering, likely includes “the equivalent of motor mechanics and industrial technicians.”

A major reason for the disparity of wages is our governments. 50% or more of everything we get "paid" goes to taxes. All taxes, property, income, sales, car tags, beer, etc. At least half. Think about that a minute: That automatically doubles the "cost" of everything.

Then there is the artificially inflated dollar v. yen exchange rate thrown into the mix. We, here in the U.S., are also the world's policemen.

We don't even need Congress' permission to start wars, like that silly old document says, because we can go in with "international" approval. That costs money. We have to pay for that. We also have to pay for an out of control environmental movement. You wonder why there's hay bales and plastic tarp at all construction sites? "Dirt runoff." Does it help? No, but that's the law and it costs money to follow it. The Chinese, like all Commies (except American Commies), don't care. No one wants orange rivers. No one wants to live in New Jersey. But when rules are put in place for no reason than to slow and harm businesses of all sizes, that's a problem.

If a Chinese worker makes $200 a month, they can live on that. The equivalent US worker, to live in basically the same standard (with family, small apartment, etc.) would need a lot more than that. Probably $1500 a month. The would not live better than the Chinese, just at more "expense" on a dollar per yen income basis. And they would probably have a really cool iPhone.

Back in the 80's, I remember hearing a Rockefeller on the radio. He said, and I'm quoting from memory because you won't find this one recorded in history, "The American standard of living is too high. It needs to be reduced by half."

I don't believe taxes are the problem, as mentioned above by mguar.

I think much of it has to do with the inability of American business to cope with the fact the rest of the world is catching up, and you can no-longer reinvest in your business every 5 or 10 years...you've got to do it on a daily basis. That means less profit for all the shareholders at the expense of business growth.

That may be one of the reasons why wages in China are so low, they aren't paying taxes, they arent stifled by regulation, and they want the economy to be as powerful as any in the world...but they want to kill the competition in the process.

If a Chinese worker makes $200 a month, they can live on that. The equivalent US worker, to live in basically the same standard (with family, small apartment, etc.) would need a lot more than that. Probably $1500 a month. The would not live better than the Chinese, just at more "expense" on a dollar per yen income basis. And they would probably have a really cool iPhone.

I understand that (though I seriously doubt that a Chinese factory worker lives anywhere near as nicely as an American factory worker) as should anyone who has 2 brain cells to rub together. What people don't seem to understand is that there's nothing I can build as cheaply as an 8-year-old Chinese girl on an assembly line, and still afford to feed myself. I'm not saying "Oh woe is me, bring the jobs back" or any of that nonsense. I'm just saying I'm shocked that I get at least one a day who can't figure that out.

PHeller wrote: II think much of it has to do with the inability of American business to cope with the fact the rest of the world is catching up, and you can no-longer reinvest in your business every 5 or 10 years...you've got to do it on a daily basis. That means less profit for all the shareholders at the expense of business growth.

can't upset the shareholders.. they want every red cent back on their investment.. even if it kills the business in another year

mguar wrote:

mad_machine wrote: I only see good things from china raising the minium rate. Eventually it will cost too much to make stuff there and transport it back here... so manufactoring will return

Mad Machine.. America's flaw isn't our high wages.. It's lack of capitol investment.. The biggest furniture manufacturer in the world is Ikea. Wages and taxes they pay are higher than America.. However they have automated so much of their production that they can make stuff there ship it here and still be cheapest! In China they have no forests.. They import all of their wood used in furniture making.. Much of it from here in America or Canada.. They ship it all the way to China run it through strate of the art factory's and ship it back here for less than we can take our local wood and make stuff with it.. That's because the biggest furniture factories in the country are still doing things the way they were back in the 1930's. One guy cuts it out and loads it on a hand cart to be rolled to the next work station. In China and Sweden wood enters the factory at one end and comes out the other end all boxed and containerized.. Almost no hands touch it. I saw a factory in China that was three city blocks big.. it had a total of 17 on staff at any one moment.. Big American furniture factories have 3-4-500 people per shift.. The parking lot is bigger than the factory..

That's a very interesting post. Thanks.

poopshovel wrote: I'm just saying I'm shocked that I get at least one a day who can't figure that out.

They weren't your customer anyway. They were a WalMart customer, you provide something different.

SVreX wrote:

poopshovel wrote: I'm just saying I'm shocked that I get at least one a day who can't figure that out.

They weren't your customer anyway. They were a WalMart customer, you provide something better.

Fixed it for you. Remember, the Walmatians will step over their own grandmother to save ten cents.

Read the last sentence of what I posted, that's what I'm more concerned with.

On the average, a US education is still much better than most of China.

poopshovel wrote: I'm just saying I'm shocked that I get at least one a day who can't figure that out.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Those are the customers you really don't want anyways. We get people that want something for nothing all the time. "But the competition can do it cheaper?" I just nod my head. Usually they're back within a year or two because the service the competitions offers sucks and they are getting screwed on parts they don't need. I don't even try to compete with our major competition on price. They are a multibillion dollar international company. We are a three man local outfit. On price they win every time because we aren't cheap. $85 an hour is our standard rate, the competition handles some of their accounts at $50 an hour. On service, quality of work, and the ability to provide what the customer wants, even when it isn't in the catalog, we do. My customers know what that's worth.

this is true.. I worked for a theatrical Rental Company for a long time.. I found that the people who were after the cheapest price were also the bitchiest customers. Sell them a couple hundred dollars in lights and if it wasn't exactly perfect, you would hear about it..

meanwhile we did a hundred thousand dollar install, and not a peep out of the customer except how happy they were that we installed and they didn't have to

Our taxes would be about 1/3 less if we didn't have to pay for the military..

No they wouldn't!

You have no idea what taxes would be because without the military we wouldn't be America. I'm not sure what language we'd be speaking but it wouldn't be Spanish, no I mean English, cause we all know English is the official language of Merca.

I just bought a Hampton Bay ceiling fan for the daughter's room. Nice workmanship, well balanced, quiet. It included a nicely finished powdercoated housing, five blades, a three lamp fixture and three CFL bulbs. (CFL bulbs by themselves are usually what, $4-$6 apiece?)

This thing was made in China, packaged, shipped here (probably to Long Beach Calif) then trucked all the way across the country. It came in a nicely printed box with accurate language (no 'Chinglish') with everything bagged and in Styrofoam packaging. It was then sold to a corpulent Southern boy by Home Depot who made a profit, probably 25%.

That fan cost me $59.00. Meaning HD made ~$15 on it. That means the fan was built and shipped with everyone (manufacturing, shipping, warehousing, import duties etc) getting a piece of the action for $44.00.

I'm not seeing that happen under current US laws. That means the nastiness etc connected with making that fan was shipped overseas so I could buy a cheap ceiling fan.