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mtn (Forum Supporter)
mtn (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/24/20 9:40 a.m.

Facebook post that is going around - Not mine, it is a facebook post, so lets all remember the source, but if you're going to dismiss it, don't dismiss it for the forum that it was shared on:

 

Interesting perspective. Long read but worth checking out. The person who wrote this is from a high population area but has relevance nonetheless.

 

This well written thought has some very good and valid points.  It's long.....but dang, it made me think a LOT.  This dad takes every argument and recontextualizes it with appropriate analogies.   Every school district in the world is having these discussions RIGHT NOW - or they should be......and this very long but good read may come in handy if you plan on attending the school board meeting Monday night. 

 

Written by a dad in Fairfax county

 

From Joe Morice, daughters in 8th & 10th grade in our Centreville Pyramid:

 

To our fellow FCPS families, this is it gang, 5 days until the 2 days in school vs. 100% virtual decision. Let’s talk it out, in my traditional mammoth TL/DR form.

 

Like all of you, I’ve seen my feed become a flood of anxiety and faux expertise. You’ll get no presumption of expertise here. This is how I am looking at and considering this issue and the positions people have taken in my feed and in the hundred or so FCPS discussion groups that have popped up. The lead comments in quotes are taken directly from my feed and those boards. Sometimes I try to rationalize them. Sometimes I’m just punching back at the void.

 

Full disclosure, we initially chose the 2 days option and are now having serious reservations. As I consider the positions and arguments I see in my feed, these are where my mind goes. Of note, when I started working on this piece at 12:19 PM today the COVID death tally in the United States stood at 133,420.

 

*****“My kids want to go back to school.”***** I challenge that position. I believe what the kids desire is more abstract. I believe what they want is a return to normalcy. They want their idea of yesterday. And yesterday isn’t on the menu.

 

*****“I want my child in school so they can socialize.”***** This was the principle reason for our 2 days decision. As I think more on it though, what do we think ‘social’ will look like? There aren’t going to be any lunch table groups, any lockers, any recess games, any study halls, any sitting next to friends, any talking to people in the hallway, any dances. All of that is off the menu. So, when we say that we want the kids to benefit from the social experience, what are we deluding ourselves into thinking in-building socialization will actually look like in the Fall?

 

*****“My kid is going to be left behind.”*****

 

Left behind who? The entire country is grappling with the same issue, leaving all children in the same quagmire. Who exactly would they be behind? I believe the rhetorical answer to that is “They’ll be behind where they should be,” to which I’ll counter that “where they should be” is a fictional goal post that we as a society have taken as gospel because it maps to standardized tests which are used to grade schools and counties as they chase funding.

 

*****“Classrooms are safe.”*****

 

At the current distancing guidelines from FCPS middle and high schools would have no more than 12 people (teachers + students) in a classroom (I acknowledge this number may change as FCPS considers the Commonwealth’s 3 ft with a mask vs. 6 ft position, noting that FCPS is all mask regardless of the distance). For the purpose of this discussion we’ll say classes run 45 minutes.

 

I posed the following question to 40 people today, representing professional and management roles in corporations, government agencies, and military commands: “Would your company or command have a 12 person, 45 minute meeting in a conference room?”

 

100% of them said no, they would not. These are some of their answers:

 

“No. Until further notice we are on Zoom.”

“(Our company) doesn’t allow us in (company space).”

“Oh hell no.”

“No absolutely not.”

“Is there a percentage lower than zero?”

“Something of that size would be virtual.”

 

We do not even consider putting our office employees into the same situation we are contemplating putting our children into. And let’s drive this point home: there are instances here when commanding officers will not put soldiers, ACTUAL SOLDIERS, into the kind of indoor environment we’re contemplating for our children. For me this is as close to a ‘kill shot’ argument as there is in this entire debate. How do we work from home because buildings with recycled air are not safe, because we don’t trust other people to not spread the virus, and then with the same breath send our children into buildings?

 

*****“Children only die .0016 of the time.”*****

 

First, conceding we’re an increasingly morally bankrupt society, but when did we start talking about children’s lives, or anyone’s lives, like this? This how the villain in movies talks about mortality, usually 10-15 minutes before the good guy kills him.

 

If you’re in this camp, and I acknowledge that many, many people are, I’m asking you to consider that number from a slightly different angle.

 

FCPS has 189,000 children. .0016 of that is 302. 302 dead children are the Calvary Hill you’re erecting your argument on. So, let’s agree to do this: stop presenting this as a data point. If this is your argument, I challenge you to have courage equal to your conviction. Go ahead, plant a flag on the internet and say, “Only 302 children will die.” No one will. That’s the kind action on social media that gets you fired from your job. And I trust our social media enclave isn’t so careless and irresponsible with life that it would even, for even a millisecond, enter any of your minds to make such an argument.

 

Considered another way: You’re presented with a bag with 189,000 $1 bills. You’re told that in the bag are 302 random bills, they look and feel just like all the others, but each one of those bills will kill you. Do you take the money out of the bag?

 

Same argument, applied to the 12,487 teachers in FCPS (per Wikipedia), using the ‘children’s multiplier’ of .0016 (all of us understanding the adult mortality rate is higher). That’s 20 teachers. That’s the number you’re talking about. It’s very easy to sit behind a keyboard and diminish and dismiss the risk you’re advocating other people assume. Take a breath and think about that.

 

If you want to advocate for 2 days a week, look, I’m looking for someone to convince me. But please, for the love of God, drop things like this from your argument. Because the people I know who’ve said things like this, I know they’re better people than this. They’re good people under incredible stress who let things slip out as their frustration boils over. So, please do the right thing and move on from this, because one potential outcome is that one day, you’re going to have to stand in front of St. Peter and answer for this, and that’s not going to be conversation you enjoy.

 

*****“Hardly any kids get COVID.”*****

 

(Deep sigh) Yes, that is statistically true as of this writing. But it is a cherry-picked argument because you’re leaving out an important piece.

 

One can reasonably argue that, due to the school closures in March, children have had the least EXPOSURE to COVID. In other words, closing schools was the one pandemic mitigation action we took that worked. There can be no discussion of the rate of diagnosis within children without also acknowledging they were among our fastest and most quarantined people. Put another way, you cannot cite the effect without acknowledging the cause.

 

*****“The flu kills more people every year.”*****

 

(Deep sigh). First of all, no, it doesn’t. Per the CDC, United States flu deaths average 20,000 annually. COVID, when I start writing here today, has killed 133,420 in six months.

 

And when you mention the flu, do you mean the disease that, if you’re suspected of having it, everyone, literally everyone in the country tells you stay the f- away from other people? You mean the one where parents are pretty sure their kids have it but send them to school anyway because they have a meeting that day, the one that every year causes massive f-ing outbreaks in schools because schools are petri dishes and it causes kids to miss weeks of school and leaves them out of sports and band for a month? That one? Because you’re right - the flu kills people every year. It does, but you’re ignoring the why. It’s because there are people who are a--holes who don’t care about infecting other people. In that regard it’s a perfect comparison to COVID.

 

*****“Almost everyone recovers.”*****

 

You’re confusing “release from the hospital” and “no longer infected” with “recovered.” I’m fortunate to only know two people who have had COVID. One my age and one my dad’s age. The one my age described it as “absolute hell” and although no longer infected cannot breathe right. The one my dad’s age was in the hospital for 13 weeks, had to have a trach ring put in because she could no longer be on a ventilator, and upon finally getting home and being faced with incalculable time in rehab told my mother, “I wish I had died.”

 

While I’m making every effort to reach objectivity, on this particular point, you don’t know what the f- you’re talking about.

 

*****“If people get sick, they get sick.”*****

 

First, you mistyped. What you intended to say was “If OTHER people get sick, they get sick.” And shame on you.

 

*****“I’m not going to live my life in fear.”*****

 

You already live your life in fear. For your health, your family’s health, your job, your retirement, terrorists, extremists, one political party or the other being in power, the new neighbors, an unexpected home repair, the next sunrise. What you meant to say was, “I’m not prepared to add ANOTHER fear,” and I’ve got news for you: that ship has sailed. It’s too late. There are two kinds of people, and only two: those that admit they’re afraid, and those that are lying to themselves about it.

 

As to the fear argument, fear is the reason you wait up when your kids stay out late, it’s the reason you tell your kids not to dive in the shallow water, to look both ways before crossing the road. Fear is the respect for the wide world that we teach our children. Except in this instance, for reasons no one has been able to explain to me yet.

 

*****“FCPS leadership sucks.”*****

 

I will summarize my view of the School Board thusly: if the 12 of you aren’t getting into a room together because it represents a risk, don’t tell me it’s OK for our kids. I understand your arguments, that we need the 2 days option for parents who can’t work from home, kids who don’t have internet or computer access, kids who needs meals from the school system, kids who need extra support to learn, and most tragically for kids who are at greater risk of abuse by being home. All very serious, all very real issues, all heartbreaking. No argument.

 

But you must first lead by example. Because you’re failing when it comes to optics. All your meetings are online. What our children see is all of you on a Zoom telling them it’s OK for them to be exactly where you aren’t. I understand you’re not PR people, but you really should think about hiring some.

 

*****“I talked it over with my kids.”***** Let’s put aside for a moment the concept of adults effectively deferring this decision to children, the same children who will continue to stuff things into a full trash can rather than change it out. Yes, those hygienic children.

 

Listen, my 15 year old daughter wants a sport car, which she’s not getting next year because it would be dangerous to her and to others. Those kinds of decisions are our job. We step in and decide as parents, we don’t let them expose themselves to risks because their still developing and screen addicted brains narrow their understanding of cause and effect.

 

We as parents and adults serve to make difficult decisions. Sometimes those are in the form of lessons, where we try to steer kids towards the right answer and are willing to let them make a mistake in the hopes of teaching better decision making the next time around. This is not one of those moments. The stakes are too high for that. This is a “the adults are talking” moment. Kids are not mature enough for this moment. That is not an attack on your child. It is a broad statement about all children. It is true of your children and it was true when we were children. We need to be doing that thinking here, and “Johnny wants to see Bobby at school” cannot be the prevailing element in the equation.

 

*****“The teachers need to do their job.”***** How is it that the same society which abruptly shifted to virtual students only three months ago, and offered glowing endorsements of teachers stating, “we finally understand how difficult your job is,” has now shifted to “screw you, do your job.” There are myriad problems with that position but for the purposes of this piece let’s simply go with, “You’re not looking for a teacher, you’re looking for the babysitter you feel your property tax payment entitles you to.”

 

*****“Teachers have a greater chance to being killed by a car than they do of dying from COVID.”*****

 

(Eye roll) Per the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS), the U.S. see approximately 36,000 auto fatalities a year. Again, there have been 133,420 COVID deaths in the United States through 12:09 July 10, 2020. So no, they do not have a great chance of being killed in a car accident.

 

And, if you want to take the actual environment into consideration, the odds of a teacher being killed in a car accident in their classroom, you know, the environment we’re actually talking about, that’s right around 0%.

 

*****“If the grocery store workers can be onsite what are the teachers afraid of?”*****

 

(Deep breath) A grocery store worker, who absolutely risks exposure, has either six feet of space or a plexiglass shield between them and individual adult customers who can grasp their own mortality whose transactions can be completed in moments, in a 40,000 SF space.

 

A teacher is with 11 ‘customers’ who have not an inkling what mortality is, for 45 minutes, in a 675 SF space, six times a day.

 

Just stop.

 

*****“Teachers are choosing remote because they don’t want to work.”*****

 

(Deep breaths) Many teachers are opting to be remote. That is not a vacation. They’re requesting to do their job at a safer site. Just like many, many people who work in buildings with recycled air have done. And likely the building you’re not going into has a newer and better serviced air system than our schools.

 

Of greater interest to me is the number of teachers choosing the 100% virtual option for their children. The people who spend the most time in the buildings are the same ones electing not to send their children into those buildings. That’s something I pay attention to.

 

*****“I wasn’t prepared to be a parent 24/7” and “I just need a break.”*****

 

I truly, deeply respect that honesty. Truth be told, both arguments have crossed my mind. Pre COVID, I routinely worked from home 1 – 2 days a week. The solace was nice. When I was in the office, I had an actual office, a room with a door I could close, where I could focus. During the quarantine that hasn’t always been the case. I’ve been frustrated, I’ve been short, I’ve gone to just take a drive and get the hell away for a moment and been disgusted when one of the kids sees me and asks me to come for a ride, robbing me of those minutes of silence. You want to hear silence. I get it. I really, really do.

 

Here’s another version of that, admittedly extreme. What if one of our kids becomes one of the 302? What’s that silence going to sound like? What if you have one of those matted frames where you add the kid’s school picture every year? What if you don’t get to finish the pictures?

 

*****“What does your gut tell you to do?”*****

 

Shawn and I have talked ad infinitum about all of these and other points. Two days ago, at mid-discussion I said, “Stop, right now, gut answer, what is it,” and we both said, “virtual.”

 

A lot of the arguments I hear people making for the 2 days sound like we’re trying to talk ourselves into ignoring our instincts, they are almost exclusively, “We’re doing 2 days, but…”. There’s a fantastic book by Gavin de Becker, The Gift of Fear, which I’ll minimize for you thusly: your gut instinct is a hardwired part of your brain and you should listen to it. In the introduction he talks about elevators, and how, of all living things, humans are the only ones that would voluntarily get into a soundproof steel box with a potential predator just so they could skip a flight of stairs.

 

I keep thinking that the 2 days option is the soundproof steel box. I welcome, damn, beg, anyone to convince me otherwise.

 

At the time I started writing at 12:09 PM, 133,420 Americans had died from COVID. Upon completing this draft at 7:04 PM, that number rose to 133,940.

 

520 Americans died of COVID while I was working on this. In seven hours.

 

The length of a school day. #302R

 

 
wae
wae UltraDork
7/24/20 10:10 a.m.

The diocese has released their guidelines and announced that we're going to have in-school, traditional instruction for all the high schools and elementary schools.  For this school year, I'm going to be paying them just north of $24,000, not including books, fund raisers, and other incidentals that they'll cook up between now and May 2021.  If I'm giving them that much cash, you can bet your ass that they're going to be in school.  The last few months of the 2019-2020 school year were an unmitigated disaster for 67% of my kids.  I love teachers, they're great people, but not one of them understood how to do remote learning with any level of effectiveness and they seemed totally oblivious to the fact that just because parents might be physically in the house with the kids, it doesn't mean that we can do their job for them.   My conversations with the grade school principal essentially boiled down to that if they were going to do anything but full-time classroom, we could buy homeschool curriculum, the kids would get more-or-less the same education, we would have about the same amount of aggravation, but we'd have this giant pile of money to use to salve our wound.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
7/24/20 10:12 a.m.

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

that's just a long winded diatribe that is saying "think of the children!" and "if it saves one life!". 

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
7/24/20 10:35 a.m.

In reply to bobzilla :

I haven't heard the final agreement  but it sounds like instead of driving the school bus 37 hours a week I might be approaching 55+ hours a week. 
That's 55 hours wearing a mask,  gloves,  and maybe even a face shield. 
 

Since last year we averaged 17 drivers short and assuming every driver comes back  ( not very likely since many of the drivers are retired)   The new expanded schedule promises  to be a real challenge. 
 

JesseWolfe
JesseWolfe Reader
7/24/20 10:36 a.m.
bobzilla said:

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

that's just a long winded diatribe that is saying "think of the children!" and "if it saves one life!". 

Also for perspective, its written by a dad in one of the wealthiest counties in the country with a consistently top 10 rated school system, again across the entire country.  I had lived here for 37 years, worked here my entire adult life.   No offense to the other members that live in NoVa, but Fairfax politics and policy has entirely too much sway over the rest of the state.

mtn (Forum Supporter)
mtn (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/24/20 10:39 a.m.
bobzilla said:

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

that's just a long winded diatribe that is saying "think of the children!" and "if it saves 320 children's lives and 20 teachers lives within our district!". 

FTFY - now I agree with the statement.

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
7/24/20 11:15 a.m.
wae said:

I love teachers, they're great people, but not one of them understood how to do remote learning with any level of effectiveness and they seemed totally oblivious to the fact that just because parents might be physically in the house with the kids, it doesn't mean that we can do their job for them.

Teachers are people too, and in my 23 years of teaching, not once have I had to completely change everything I was doing into something that had never been done before, and expect it to be perfect, and valid, with zero testing or trial. Granted, I had to come up with a valid shop course for shop kids with no shop. At no time in University was I taught how to deal with distance learning during a pandemic. Neither were you. Many teachers are doing their best to figure out what's best, and there are many teachers who are not. JUST LIKE that co-worker of yours (in whatever industry you are in) who pulls their weight, and the other one who doesn't.

Interestingly, my entire course content is on my own website.  In class, I teach from my website. All the material is there, all the lessons, all the powerpoints, all the worksheets, all the videos, everything.  Any kid can access that information remotely, and has been able to for years, even prior to Covid. But - next to no kids do, and never have. I get lots of kids who miss days or weeks, and come back having done nothing to catch up. "You know, it's all on the website." Blank stares.

What I DID find over covid, is about 80-90% of my students checked out and called it a 5 month summer break. 80-90%. They did not respond to email, they did not respond to phone calls, they did not complete any assignments, they did not interact in any way. Some were the really good, really keen kids.

I also suspect that there may be a significant portion of students who I think only get through all of highschool because they go "Wait, what? What are supposed to be doing? What are you doing? I'm copying you!" Take away the proximity of other kids that these guys need to follow, and they're screwed - they've never learned to learn.

I worked my freaking ass off trying to make this work for my students, to almost the breaking point of burnout. And if you are not a teacher, you have no idea what I'm talking about - you may think teachers are "summers off and no heavy lifting," but again, there are some amazing teachers out there who work harder than you do (and harder than I do). My hat is off to elementary teachers! There are other teachers whose low level of effort offends me.

And then we were directed to NOT lower ANY mark - even for the kids who did jack squat. So the kids who busted his ass to keep up, and the kid who went waterskiing every day (and there were many kids who told me they did a lot of camping, or too busy playing video games, or whatever...) - they got to keep their mark. It didn't seem fair.

Honestly, I think the online learning was a freaking disaster. The kids, for the most part, can't do it.

I was able to meet with some kids as we opened the school up for one day a week (one of only two provinces that did so). I shared that I found it difficult to work from home because when I'm at home I do home stuff, and when I'm at school I do school stuff, and now I'm at home and I'm supposed to do school stuff, but there's all this home stuff that I want to do.... The kids who came were nodding in agreement - they knew what I was saying. I shared that I had to schedule time for school work, and do zero home stuff during that time. That might take more self discipline than most students can muster.

Having said all that - If we go back to 2 days in, 2 days out, and a "flex" day (as there is talk for us), I'm still pretty stressed as I will still be in contact with 100% of my students. And if I catch this, I'm sure my own covid-friendly asthma will make for an interesting ride.

Teaching in class is FAR better than online. But I don't want to risk my health over it.

No answers here, just opinions. And I still gotta do what the boss says - I'm an employee to the system, just like you.

RevRico
RevRico GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
7/24/20 11:20 a.m.

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

Blanket statements and emotional appeals are fine and dandy, until they don't work. 

County population 347k.

 as of today, less than 1300 cases total in the county.

School district has 2100 (rounding up) students, 14:1 student teacher ratio.

What works in your urban hellscapes like Fairfax and Chicago have ZERO bearing on us here in the middle of nowhere.

What does have a massive impact is the number of people who rely on both incomes to maintain a roof and food and clothing, that cannot afford to have someone stay home to do the teachers job for them.people that have been struggling since they lost their jobs months ago whose only other alternative was to become an "essential" (read high risk) employee, increasing their (locally at least) miniscule risk of infection and risk of bringing it home to their kids.

This isn't something that should be nationally decided and blanketed, this really is something that should be up to the school districts themselves.

And now, with context of that novel you quoted, I'm dismissing it as not only emotional fear mongering, but wealth privilege. 

 

mtn (Forum Supporter)
mtn (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/24/20 11:23 a.m.

Rico, I agree with you, but I want to point out I never made a blanket statement when it comes to schools. I shared what I think is a well thought out post for a single district.

The only statement that I made was this: 

 I am foolishly hopeful that this results in the 21st century equivalent of the Rural Electrification Act from the 1930s. The "Everywhere High speed Internet" Act of 2021. And maybe make it affordable everywhere, because we already gave the berkeleying telecom companies $800B.

 

If I did have to make a decision today... Man, this is a hard one. I'd want a kindergartner to get socialization. I wouldn't want them in a social setting. We'd probably be looking hard at homeschooling, and bugging SvRex for information on it. 

 

And, after modifying Bobzillas post, agreeing with his post - which was for a specific district.  

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/24/20 11:27 a.m.

In reply to SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) :

That's going to make it one step worse for employers 'trusting' work from home. That when kids were "work from home" in school they were given exactly no feedback for what is acceptable and what isn't. Lovely. 

For what its worth, I learned some things from your carburetor video.

wae
wae UltraDork
7/24/20 11:47 a.m.
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) said:
wae said:

I love teachers, they're great people, but not one of them understood how to do remote learning with any level of effectiveness and they seemed totally oblivious to the fact that just because parents might be physically in the house with the kids, it doesn't mean that we can do their job for them.

Teachers are people too, and in my 23 years of teaching, not once have I had to completely change everything I was doing into something that had never been done before, and expect it to be perfect, and valid, with zero testing or trial. Granted, I had to come up with a valid shop course for shop kids with no shop. At no time in University was I taught how to deal with distance learning during a pandemic. Neither were you. Many teachers are doing their best to figure out what's best, and there are many teachers who are not. JUST LIKE that co-worker of yours (in whatever industry you are in) who pulls their weight, and the other one who doesn't.

Post-secondary education has been evolving in the distance learning business for the last 25 years and have gotten pretty good at it in the aggregate.  Primary and secondary education has only very recently started dipping their toes in that water and more in the homeschooling space than the traditional school space.  Any time you tell somebody on Friday that come Monday they're going to need to do their job in a completely different fashion so figure it out and good luck the results are going to be less than optimal no matter who we're talking about.  Maybe a college that has been doing distance learning for the last decade could make an acceptable transition but a grade school?  Over a weekend?  Yeah, that wasn't going to turn out well.

The companion problem to that is remote work or learning requires the "remote" side to learn how to operate that way as well.  I've got years of experience in working from home and know how to build structure around my day to ensure that I stay on task but also don't over-work and burn out.  The kids have none of that - and again, had about 48 hours to learn it - and most of the teachers haven't done remote work either so they're not equipped to teach the kids how to do that.  And while I can try to teach those habits to my kids, it's hard to do when it's just grumpy old Dad trying to make them do things that the teacher says they don't have to do.

I'm not laying the blame squarely on the teachers at all - they really are doing the best that they know how to do.  But if I'm got to do all the work I'm not paying top dollar for the privilege!

 

dropstep
dropstep UltraDork
7/24/20 12:47 p.m.

We got our information today, full normal schedule with masks required for 3rd grade and up but they are offering e learning if people don't want to send there kids. My kids are more worried about weather or not tackle football season will be approved. Flag was but they aged out of that and this was to be the first year they play full contact. 
 

im in rural western Ohio 

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/24/20 12:56 p.m.

Our school district has proven to me that they are complete incompetents and are perfectly willing to play a politically driven game of Russian Roulette that will most assuredly get thousands of people sick. 
 

We will be homeschooling again in the Fall. 
 

If I was a teacher, I'd be talking with my coworkers about a class action lawsuit. 

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/24/20 1:00 p.m.

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

Just saw your note about socialization....

My perspective is that most homeschoolers get far better socialization than most public school kids.   It's the one area homeschooling really excels at.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
7/24/20 1:15 p.m.

Fun fact: At my wife's district they surveyed the parents and the teachers about going back to school in 2 weeks. The parents survey was about 88% in favor of kids going back to school. This is a district that is securely middle-upper class families. The teachers response was over 90% against. 

Now.... With the exception of the sped side, the standard classroom teachers were required to do about an hour to an hour and a half of work a day for their classes this spring when everyone went e-learning. The SpEd teachers were still following their state guidlines (to not get sued) and spending 5-6 hours per day teaching. Now, I understand. If I could sit at home with full pay and benefits and only have to work an hour or two a day at most I'd probably jump on that too. And I'd probably fight to not lose that sweet gig. But thats not what they were hired to do. 

mtn (Forum Supporter)
mtn (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/24/20 1:43 p.m.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

Just saw your note about socialization....

My perspective is that most homeschoolers get far better socialization than most public school kids.   It's the one area homeschooling really excels at.

 

I don't disagree based on the 3 people I know well that were homeschooled - other than missing some pop-culture references (who cares) and some funny incidents from jokes that they didn't get (no sex education for this particular kid until he was 17 in a hockey locker room... that is on the parents), they were much better socialized than most. I guess I'm talking about the current environment, and whether or not I said it, NOW (after I've done a tiny bit of research into classroom vs virtual vs homeschool) I would talking about socialization in a classroom setting vs a virtual learning setting  -  homeschool would be a different situation that (if I did) I shouldn't have included in my statement. 

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
7/24/20 1:54 p.m.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

If I was a teacher, I'd be talking with my coworkers about a class action lawsuit. 

My wife joined the teacher's union in this state due to worries about how things would go with the coronavirus and wanting some extra legal protection.

Ranger50
Ranger50 UltimaDork
7/24/20 2:48 p.m.
Ranger50 said:

We start July 31. You can either choose in person learning with 25 in class, online learning at home ready to go like normal school and ready at 8am no option to learn independently aka flexible times to watch the class, or homeschool.

 

All of our options suck. Can't afford to have the spouse stay home to homeschool.

Just got an email that states classes start the 8th of September now.... Nobody is biting at the online classes because of what I said earlier. I figure a hybrid 2 days of in class and 2 days online with a day of teacher help will become the norm.

This still sucks.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
7/24/20 2:50 p.m.

Current Delaware rumor has it that the K-4 kids will be going back around the beginning of September, but middle and high school kids will be remote only at least for the fall semester.

 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
7/24/20 5:53 p.m.
Patrick (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

"Socialization" is a myth.  Kids learn how to be people before they hit school.  My kids know how to play with other kids just fine, and can have conversations with anyone about anything and they've never stepped foot in a school 

I'd like to see some data on this.  I agree with SVREX's comment that homeschoolers can be well socialized (and often better than many in public school).  However, I read mtn's comment as they need interaction with other children, not 'learning how to be people'.  My son is 5.  He has no siblings.  Being stuck at home with me all day, while I am trying to do my job, and having periodic 20 min zoom calls with a teacher and 10-20 other kids on the call, is not filling this need.  I believe this will have an impact on his development, but I would love to see data either way.

I don't think this is a homeschool vs. public school comment so much as isolation vs. not.  I have issues with homeschooling, but socialization is not one of them.

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/24/20 6:26 p.m.

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

Ahh... gotcha. 
 

I agree. Public school socialization (if everything is online) is the worst of all possible worlds regarding socialization. 

Wally (Forum Supporter)
Wally (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/24/20 6:27 p.m.

The districts here are all over. My brother has been back to school teaching special ed high school for about three weeks now. Counties with good metrics were allowed in person special ed and while they have a mess of extra precautions, no changing classrooms everyone masked all day, lunch in their classrooms, etc so far everyone has remained well. He's not sure if they have the space and staff to have everyone in class full time during the regular year but their safety measures seem to be working out and while most of his kids have serious issues they're handling it well. 

STM317
STM317 UberDork
7/24/20 7:52 p.m.
mtn (Forum Supporter) said:
bobzilla said:

In reply to mtn (Forum Supporter) :

that's just a long winded diatribe that is saying "think of the children!" and "if it saves 320 children's lives and 20 teachers lives within our district!". 

FTFY - now I agree with the statement.

I'm going to quote this post instead of the super long FB post to save space since they're related to a potential error. 

I have no idea if the .0016% thing is accurate or not. I do think that the math in the facebook post is wrong and may be overly negative and sensational.

.0016% of 189k students = 3.2, not 320. And it sounds like they may be assuming 100% infection rate among the population which seems dubious.

Here's an excerpt from the CDC's recently released recommendation:

"The best available evidence indicates that COVID-19 poses relatively low risks to school-aged children.  Children appear to be at lower risk for contracting COVID-19 compared to adults.  To put this in perspective, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), as of July 17, 2020, the United States reported that children and adolescents under 18 years old account for under 7 percent of COVID-19 cases and less than 0.1 percent of COVID-19-related deaths.[5]  Although relatively rare, flu-related deaths in children occur every year. From 2004-2005 to 2018-2019, flu-related deaths in children reported to CDC during regular flu seasons ranged from 37 to 187 deaths.  During the H1N1pandemic (April 15, 2009 to October 2, 2010), 358 pediatric deaths were reported to CDC. So far in this pandemic, deaths of children are less than in each of the last five flu seasons, with only 64. Additionally, some children with certain underlying medical conditions, however, are at increased risk of severe illness from COVID-19.*

Scientific studies suggest that COVID-19 transmission among children in schools may be low.  International studies that have assessed how readily COVID-19 spreads in schools also reveal low rates of transmission when community transmission is low.  Based on current data, the rate of infection among younger school children, and from students to teachers, has been low, especially if proper precautions are followed.  There have also been few reports of children being the primary source of COVID-19 transmission among family members.[6],[7],[8]  This is consistent with data from both virus and antibody testing, suggesting that children are not the primary drivers of COVID-19 spread in schools or in the community.[9],[10],[11]  No studies are conclusive, but the available evidence provides reason to believe that in-person schooling is in the best interest of students, particularly in the context of appropriate mitigation measures similar to those implemented at essential workplaces."

 

 

So, what can we take from that?

The people in their zoom meetings are higher risk than the kids in the classroom. They're taking the appropriate action based on their risk level. Their risk level is not the same as their kids'.

The teachers pose a higher risk to the kids than the kids do to the teachers or to each other.

Most of the studies that are referenced in the bolded part I've already linked to on the previous page. Those studies were done internationally, in places where schools were still in session. The argument that our kids haven't been exposed due to quarantine, and therefore are likely to see higher numbers than the studies doesn't make sense to me.

64 total deaths in the under 18 age bracket thus far for all Americans. [Speculation to follow] I'm guessing that a very large percentage of those 64 had some other, serious health issues that increased their risk above what a normal under 18 person might have (cancer patient, waiting for an organ donor, etc). These are likely kids that wouldn't have been in school anyway. [End of speculation]

If the CDC says that 7% of COVID cases have been in the under 18 age bracket, and there were 3,549,648 confirmed COVID cases in the US on July 17 when the data was collected, that means there had been about 248,475 kids test positive for COVID. The CDC says that there had been 64 deaths, so that's 0.025% Case fatality rate for the youngest demographic. In other words, 25 out of every 100k kids that have confirmed COVID tests have died. That's way different than 320 kids dying in a school district with 189k kids. And that doesn't include any asymptomatic kids that haven't been tested, which would drive the infection fatality rate even lower. If the overall case fatality rate for all demographics were that low, there would've only been 887 deaths out of those 3,549,648 confirmed cases instead of 130k+.

If you sent your kid to school in any of the last 5 flu seasons, they were probably at higher risk than they are now for COVID.

 

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
7/24/20 8:10 p.m.

In reply to STM317 :

Thank you for that. I know it means nothing and sone will completely dismiss it but i enjoy seeing the actual facts presented. Not someone's opinion.  

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
7/24/20 8:42 p.m.

Good catch(es) on that math.  However, isn't the real issue here the risk for teachers?

I wish there were school this year.  But I understand why some teachers don't want school.

I need to read through some of those references, but one concern I have is:  there is little data for kids being the primary spreaders right now, because kids are at home.  Do we know they aren't spreaders, or do we not have enough data?  Either way, sounds like we might have more data soon from some school systems.

 

From WHO report (9).  Seems pretty inconclusive.

Data on individuals aged 18 years old and under suggest that there is a relatively low attack rate in this age group (2.4% of all reported cases). Within Wuhan, among testing of ILI samples, no children were positive in November and December of 2019 and in the first two weeks of January 2020. From available data, and in the absence of results from serologic studies, it is not possible to determine the extent of infection among children, what role children play in transmission, whether children are less susceptible or if they present differently clinically (i.e. generally milder presentations). The Joint Mission learned that infected children have largely been identified through contact tracing in households of adults. Of note, people interviewed by the Joint Mission Team could not recall episodes in which transmission occurred from a child to an adult.

 From Netherlands report (10).  Much more promising:

Primary schools have been partially reopened since 11 May. The schools reopened fully on 8 June. Childcare facilities are also open again as of that date. Secondary education, special secondary education, practical education and newcomer education reopened on 2 June. 

After double-checking with all 25 municipal public health services (GGDs), it has become apparent that there were no reports of possible COVID-19 clusters that had a link to schools or childcare facilities (or temporary childcare) before the schools closed on 16 March. After reopening the primary schools and childcare facilities, a few reports have come in regarding infections among employees at schools; RIVM has not received any reports of employees who were infected by children (based on data as of early June 2020).  The reproduction number R, which represents the average number of new infections by a COVID-19 patient, has fluctuated below 1 since mid-March. This means that the spread of the epidemic is slowing down. After the partial reopening of primary schools and childcare facilities on 11 May, there was no sudden increase in the reproduction number

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