Bad Government, No Donut: Man arrested for Daughters Gun Pic

mguar wrote:

z31maniac wrote:

Zomby woof wrote: As do the teacher, and principal. These are supposed to be highly educated people. I'm glad my kids are out of school.

Look up the stats, at least in America, the avg is that public teachers are the lowest in grad and undergrad test scores. I realize there are exceptions, but on avg. And they continue to get more and more money "For the children" but the results continue to get worse.

Have you wonder why that is? It's because teachers make less money than Lawyers and Bankers/investment Councillors etc.. and less money than Garbage collectors and less money than a carpenter, plumber, or electrician.. Good people go where there are good rewards. The best teachers are drawn to schools that reward their efforts decently. Upper class suburban schools, INNER CITY SCHOOLS WITH THEIR POOR BUDGETS GET THE REMNANTS. If you graduate from college with a $50-100,000 student loan after making your student loan payments on a starting salary you might make as much as that 18 year old kid working at McDonald's.. (almost) Oh sure if you put up with all the BS and rules FOR 30 YEARS. Avoid the vindictive parent who is pi**ed because his Johnny got the grade he earned and not the grade his high pressure daddy wanted. Take the required mandated summer courses. spend 2-3 hours every night correcting papers and writing new lesson plans to conform to the latest rules..

This +1000. My girlfriend is a teacher and I am sorry but teachers work way to hard for what they get paid. She gets to school at 7 every morning and leaves at 5 and usually continues working on grading or planning until she falls asleep. Sure the degree is easier then say an engineering degree but we wouldn't have any decent engineers, doctors or etc without teachers. I don't get were people are saying that the government is throwing money at the schools because every state I have lived in has been cutting school funding. In my girlfriend's school, they only have one set of textbooks for students so the students can't take the textbooks home and the teachers are very limited on the number of copies they can make so they have to get very creative with the homework they send home. You add in the fact they have to deal with the dumb berkeley parents who either had kids as a teen and treat it like a fashion statement or just don't give two berkeleys about their kid and just leave him in front of the TV all day. Also to teach a lot of subjects in High school you have to a degree in the subject you are teaching. Who is going to take a teachers salary when you have a degree in physics or biology or math?

Since they don't get paid much the result and they have deal with all the E36 M3 from the government and parents, you get to kinds of people who go into teaching, the ones who just want to party through college and the occasional ones who really want to teach.

This +1000. My girlfriend is a teacher and I am sorry but teachers work way to hard for what they get paid. She gets to school at 7 every morning and leaves at 5 and usually continues working on grading or planning until she falls asleep. Sure the degree is easier then say an engineering degree but we wouldn't have any decent engineers, doctors or etc without teachers. I don't get were people are saying that the government is throwing money at the schools because every state I have lived in has been cutting school funding...

A bit OT, but that one is easy:

America spends more money across the board average per student than all nations except Finland in 2007. And American students test lower than most countries that spend less, and Finland too. This has been true since the late 90s until today, with minimal deviance.

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=20378

It is also true that every year, spending totals on education overall have -increased-, not decreased.

In just ONE education program, the Elementary and Secondary Education Act, spending has gone up almost 20 billion dollars since the 90s.

http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/edlite-chart.html

The education problem in this country is not an education problem. Public education is a giant sucking hole of misappropriated funds, lack of any accountability and rampant political pandering.

When our grandparents were kids - a town got together, put up a school house and hired a good teacher or teachers to educate their kids. Rich people went to established private schools. Some people chose not (or couldn't afford to) to send their kids. Some did it at home. The federal government got involved somewhere in the 30's and dammit if they won't get it fixed one of these days

mguar wrote: A KID KILLED AND 4 WOUNDED IN SCHOOL JUST YESTERDAY AND YOU THINK GUN RIGHTS ARE IMPORTANT?

Yes, I do.

Seeing as how the people who keep trying to take my guns are probably masturbating furiously over that shooting.

In reply to madmallard:

Ok but the money is disappearing well before it gets to the students because every teacher I know has less more for supplies then they did a few years ago and it still doesn't change the fact that teachers don't get a competitive salary for the work the do.

93EXCivic wrote: Ok but the money is disappearing well before it gets to the students because every teacher I know has less more for supplies then they did a few years ago and it still doesn't change the fact that teachers don't get a competitive salary for the work the do.

Around here, I disagree. I'm actually strongly considering going into teaching because of it. The average starting salary around here is about $30,000, not to mention those pensions (okay, not gonna be around for your gf necessarily). Sure, they put in long hours, but I expect them to. I'd expect to with any job I had. And I'm willing to bet small money that your girlfriend in 10 years is getting to work at 7, and leaving at 4--she'll get better at it, more organized, and lesson plans will be re-used year to year. And for the argument that that is more than 9-5, well, I don't know of many successful professionals who aren't working 8-6 or 8-7.

Oh, and don't forget that the salary they are getting is with more vacation time than any other profession--typically 1 week in off days, 2 weeks in winter, and 1 week in spring, along with 1-2 months in summer (I would hope though that she is teaching summer school or has some other job during the summer).

--These views are gathered from a mother who is a school nurse, an aunt who is a teacher, and many friends who are education majors here at school (number 3 school for education if you think those rankings mean anything).

In reply to mtn:

I really don't think $30,000 is a competitive salary for some one who has 4 years of college education especially considering the rate of advancement in salary isn't what I would call great and the fact that teachers are necessary job for our society. I will give you that time spent a day will go down but it will still be a lot more then any engineer I know puts into a job a week.

In reply to 93EXCivic:

So's HVAC work, I wasn't making anywhere near 30 grand a year and I had to haul heavy E36 M3 around.

There are reasons for this. Pretty much anyone with a 4 year degree can be a teacher. Not everyone can be an engineer. Not everyone can be a successful business man. Teachers are well-compensated for what they do, especially when you factor in time off. If they didn't want to deal with kids, they shouldn't have become teachers.

93EXCivic wrote: In reply to mtn: I really don't think $30,000 is a competitive salary for some one who has 4 years of college education especially considering the rate of advancement in salary isn't what I would call great and the fact that teachers are necessary job for our society. I will give you that time spent a day will go down but it will still be a lot more then any engineer I know puts into a job a week.

$30,000 is the starting salary (actually that is a low estimate), average is probably around $45-50,000. If that isn't competitive... Then we really can't have a conversation. And don't forget that they should be working in the summer for a boost. (This is all for Illinois).

Source: http://familytaxpayers.org/salary.php

rotard wrote: There are reasons for this. Pretty much anyone with a 4 year degree can be a teacher. Not everyone can be an engineer. Not everyone can be a successful business man. Teachers are well-compensated for what they do, especially when you factor in time off. If they didn't want to deal with kids, they shouldn't have become teachers.

Ok keep telling yourself that.

rotard wrote: There are reasons for this. Pretty much anyone with a 4 year degree can be a teacher. Not everyone can be an engineer. Not everyone can be a successful business man. Teachers are well-compensated for what they do, especially when you factor in time off. If they didn't want to deal with kids, they shouldn't have become teachers.

Lol, that is just wrong.

No its not, I'm afraid.

They may not be a GOOD teacher, but yes, they can be a teacher. And ask the teacher's union how much they care as long as this person pays dues to the union and gives them more power. And...

in reply to 93EXCivic:

The Burea of Labor and Statistics registers all compensation, not just salary. And teachers, after you factor in government benefits, health packages, pensions, and other fringe items associated with being a government employee, teachers make out quite well for themselves.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/warrenmeyer/2011/12/22/the-teacher-salary-myth-are-teachers-underpaid/

The average rate of compensation spread across ALL private industry workers is about $28, whereas an average of all teachers $54.

OK first off, no I wasn’t’ born here, I was born in the UK where gun ownership is very tightly controlled and hand guns are very very difficult to own. Yes I absolutely agree with the right to own guns within reason (excluding felons, crazy people etc.). I don’t personally own a gun, but I’ve been to the range a few times to shoot hand guns, and I have friend out in the country and sometimes use their rifles and shotguns. Kinda fun once in a while, but doesn’t really float my boat.

Jay_W wrote: Show me. Show me one instance where any gun rights organization defends a school shooter or where a domestic violence shooting is backpedaled into a defensive home invasion shooting. Cuz what happens is almost invariably the opposite and you know it. But it's like you say. A lie sells better than the truth.

Come off it, after every major tragedy there’s a call from one side to tighten up gun laws and a massive push from the NRA to defend total freedom of gun rights and to loosen up what already there. No, they are not defending the shooters, but they are defending the system that makes those shootings possible and pushing for less control at every oportunity. There is total paranoia from the NRA that every Dem is out to take their guns away, remember the massive surge in gun and ammo sales around the last election because the big O was going to take away every ones guns? Now at the end of the day, while the rhetoric from both sides is over that top, I feel the NRA is the worst offender. Give and take is good in that it helps maintain a balance. One side would make gun ownership illegal, the other would remove all restrictions, there’s a middle ground. While I think that in some cases gun ownership is too easy and lax here, I also see that in the UK and Europe it’s gone too far the other way due to death by a thousand cuts, and that’s what needs to be stopped here.

I have an American friend who’s lived in the Netherlands for many years, he was telling me about the ridiculous laws he had to go too over there to get his guns into the country. And now they’re there they have to be locked up all the times (fair enough) but if he wants to use them he has to take them in the trunk to and from the gun club, he can’t do or go anywhere else on the way there or back. Want dinner on the way home? Nope, you can get arrested for that an lose your guns. Now that’s silly. There are also very strict limits on how many and what type of gun you can have and to/from who and how you buy/sell. He says it’s almost so difficult that now he’s gone to the trouble of getting them there, it’s so hard to use them he just doesn’t shoot anymore.

Again, while I think there should be tighter limits on who can get guns and how they are stored, I don’t think there should be limits on what type of guns people have. While I don’t see the need for private use or ownership of automatic weapons, other people don’t see the need for 600hp supercars or race tracks or rally events on public land etc. so I’m firmly in the let people own what they want camp

One thing I’d like to see is a comparison of accidental gun deaths, intentional shootings and other murders / violent assaults per 1,000,000 inhabitants between the US, Canada, the UK and some other 1st world countries. The argument is that guns make us safer, but I’d like to see the numbers that do or don’t back that up. The reason I want non gun deaths included is it’s an easy argument to make that because guns aren’t’ available then the bad guys stab or beat their victims to death instead.

One of the things I have always pushed for is gun licensing. Not a license to own, but a license that proves you at least know basic gun safety. To get around the gun nuts, I would advocate it be given to ALL students at age 18.

If I need a license to prove I can drive a car (safely is another matter if I look at those around me) that is used to transport.. then a license to prove I can use a tool that was primarily used to kill seems like common sense

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

"No, they are not defending the shooters,"

Right. So stop putting words in my mouth. I said what I said to that other poster, who accused 'the gun nuts" of doing exactly that. What do you want a gun rights organization to do, when some idiot goes off the deep end and the brady preople scream for confiscation?

I might not have an issue with licensing. If it was done at a national level, and transferrable across all state lines, and rendered all current cwp permits obsolete. But the idea of adding more gun laws, to the thousands and thousands and thousands that are already in place, makes me think oh boy, another boondoggle. More laws to keep them away from criminals and loonies sounds fine, but criminals and loonies don't care about laws. Just looking at FBI stats over the last couple decades shows that violent crime rates have been dropping across the board while more states are making it easier to concealed carry. It appears that the UK's crime rate went way up after the latest rounds of increased contriol went into effect there, but I don'y know firsthand at all and don't know how reliable the info really is. I do know this. My guns haven't ever hurt anybody. They never climb outta the safe and go on rampages. But twice now they have saved my bacon by being there when needed, so yeah, I'm kinda biased and take an extremely jaundiced view of anyone who would make it third time's the charm for the next thug who sees me as a victim.

Jay_W wrote: I might not have an issue with licensing. If it was done at a national level, and transferrable across all state lines, and rendered all current cwp permits obsolete.

Sorry yes.. I should have mentioned that. This would be on the national level and would be given to ALL high School seniors. This way they all know how to handle a gun safely AND the gun nuts will not be able to say they are using the license to know who has a gun and who doesn't

madmallard wrote: No its not, I'm afraid.

That is exactly what I wrote. I have a ton of teacher friends (my mom is also a teacher) and ANYONE can be a teacher, the schooling isn't that difficult. If they get their foot in the door to their first full time position, BOOM, good to go.

That doesn't mean they'll be good though, it is a difficult field to EXCEL in.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

It really is alien to most cultures, because I don't think its about the gun. I think the gun was the most current symbol at the time of the inception of the Constitution, but I think more basic foundation, a core metric of American society, is the individual determination with self-armament. Most of the other cultures and governments discussed here that still have personal weapon owenrship do not list individual determination as their core tenant, but are more collectivist or democratic themed cultures with more emphasis on rights of the group.

The Canadian Constitution for example has a charter of civil rights, but its You have to get all the way to section 7 before you see "security of the person" as something that could even be remotely interpreted to use as a means of self-armament. The current iteration of the constitutional charter holds far more references to group or collected rights.

Of all the US Ammendments currently held, only the 16th lists a government or a collective right of some kind. All other ammendment are either a changing of electoral regulations, or enumeration of rights of the individual.

Freedom of personal thought and sprituality is certainly of critical importance to individualism along with property rights, but of exactly equal importance is assertion of individual existance. And as unseemly as it appears to most other cultures of the world, the USA specifically identifies use of lethal force in defense of self, and in many states in defense of property as well. I think the gun is merely a symbol of that acknowledgement since it was the most lethal personal arms available in the late 1700s.

in reply to Hitempguy:

and unfortuntately, the same aforementioned unionship helps to assure that excelling is not only unnecessary to advance, but also undesired outside their leadership structures and elitism.

Jay wrote:

J308 wrote: Honestly who cares? This happened in Canada. Might as well be Chicago or NY/NJ. Just a bunch of bodies moving around thinking they're important. Cool story, bro.

Because obviously important stuff only happens in the good old U.S. of A (and certainly not anywhere those damn Yankees live!) I think you've just won this week's most numb-tarded comment on the board award, and hey, it's only Tuesday! Good job.

Haha, It was a bit of trolling, but it was definitely a case of troll or be trolled, and this thread went that direction in a quick berkeleying hurry. Still.... I actually DO care what happens in Canada moreso than NY.

And yeah, my award was shortlived, as several others further down in the thread trumped me quite handily, only they were serious. Thanks anyway!

Note date:

"Gun deaths cut in half, StatsCan says Last Updated: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 | 8:55 PM ET CBC News

The risk of death by gunshot has been cut in half in Canada and is far smaller than in the United States, Statistics Canada says. In a study issued on Monday, the federal agency notes that Canadian gun-control laws have been stiffened in recent decades and gun registration has been made compulsory, but it draws no conclusions about the cause of the falling death toll.

It says that 816 people — 767 males and 49 females — died of firearms-related injuries in Canada in 2002, the most recent year examined in the study. This represented 2.6 deaths per 100,000 population, down from 5.9 per 100,000 in 1979, it said.

Guns seized by Toronto police in February 2005.

Among males, the 2002 rate was 4.9 deaths per 100,000, down from 10.6 in 1979. Among females, it was 0.3, down from 1.2.

In a cross-border comparison for the year 2000, Statistics Canada says the risk of firearms death was more than three times as great for American males as for Canadian males and seven times as great for American females as for Canadian females.

Because more of the U.S. deaths were homicides (as opposed to suicides or accidental deaths), the U.S. rate of gun homicide was nearly eight times Canada's, the agency says. Homicides accounted for 38 per cent of deaths involving guns in the United States and 18 per cent in Canada.

But even as Canada's rate of gun homicide shrank (to 0.4 per 100,000 population in 2002 from 0.8 in 1979), handguns moved into a dominant role. Handguns accounted for two-thirds of gun homicides in 2002, up from about half in the 1990s, the agency says.

Consistently through the period, about four-fifths of Canadian firearms deaths were suicides, it says."

I'm going to see if I can get a homicide rate ignoring cause. I know in Saskatchewan, its exceedingly rare for a murderdeathkill to involve a firearm. I'd guess over 90% are knife related here.

Global homicide: A police sign calling for information after a fatal knife crime. Photograph: Ian Waldie/Getty Images What do murder rates tell us about a country? When they are as extreme as Colombia's or South Africa's, do they shape our perceptions of the place?

Crime is rising in South Africa less than nine months before the country hosts the football World Cup. But even with a murder rate dropping some 3% in recent years, South Africa still has one of the higher rates in the world.

So, who are the others? These figures, from the fantastic UNdata give us an insight into the latest figures. But, of course, the results can offer different interpretations. If there's one area where you can find a figure to suit your prejudices this is it. The UN data includes figures from the World Health Organisation, the UN and local police forces. So there is the South Africa murder rate on the summary chart below of 39.5 - and there is also a hugely different WHO figure of 69 murders per 100,000.

So, how did we choose what to summarise here? Where there is a conflict, ie two sets of numbers for the same year, we've put them in this order: Average figures first, then Eurostat (the EU's statistics service) followed by the UN, WHO and then individual country reports. We've tried to be consistent in summarising the figures below - but if you want the full data, go to the Google spreadsheet and find out for yourself.

We want you to visualise this data - so let us know what you can do.

Download the full data DATA: download the full list as a spreadsheet, including sources and alternative measures

Can you do something with this data? Flickr Please post your visualisations and mash-ups on our Flickr group or mail us at datastore@guardian.co.uk

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Summary table Murder rates around the world Click headings to sort Country/ Area Homicides per 100,000 pop Period Afghanistan 3.4 2004
Albania 6.6 2004
Algeria 1.4 2004
Andorra 1.4 2004
Angola 36 2004
Anguilla 8.3 2004
Antigua and Barbuda 7.7 2004
Argentina 5.3 Ave 2004-2006
Armenia 2.5 2004
Australia 1.3 2004
Austria 0.7 2004
Azerbaijan 2.4 2004
Bahamas 22.5 2004
Bahrain 1 2004
Bangladesh 2.3 2005
Barbados 15.1 2004
Belarus 8.3 2004
Belgium 2.1 2004
Belize 30.1 2004
Benin 12.7 2004
Bermuda 1.1 2004
Bhutan 4.3 2004
Bolivia 5.3 2005
Bosnia and Herzegovina 1.8 2005
Botswana 21.5 2004
Brazil 30.8 Ave 2003-2005
Brunei Darussalam 1.4 2004
Bulgaria 3.1 2004
Burkina Faso 18.1 2004
Burma 15.7 2004
Burundi 35.4 2004
Cambodia 18.5 2004
Cameroon 16.1 2004
Canada 1.5 Ave 2002-2004
Cape Verde 10.7 2004
Central African Rep 29.1 2004
Chad 19 2004
Chile 5.5 Ave 2003-2005
China 2.2 2004
Colombia 61.1 Ave 2003-2005
Comoros 9.3 2004
Congo 18.8 2004
Congo, the Dem Rep of the 35.2 2004
Costa Rica 7.3 Ave 2004-2006
Cote d'Ivoire 45.7 2004
Croatia 2 2004
Cuba 6 Ave 2004-2006
Cyprus 1.8 2004
Czech Rep 2.2 2004
Denmark 1.1 2004
Djibouti 3.5 2004
Dominica 10.3 2004
Dominican Rep 16.8 2004
East Timor 11.7 2004
Ecuador 16.8 Ave 2003-2005
Egypt 0.7 2005
El Salvador 56.4 Ave 2004-2006
England & Wales 1.6 2004
Equatorial Guinea 24 2004
Eritrea 15.9 2004
Estonia 6.7 2004
Ethiopia 19.3 2004
Fiji 0.7 2004
Finland 2.8 2004
France 1.6 2004
Gabon 17.1 2004
Gambia 13.5 2004
Georgia 6.2 2004
Germany 1 2004
Ghana 11.6 2004
Greece 1 2004
Grenada 4.9 2004
Guatemala 26.3 Ave 2002-2004
Guinea 17.3 2004
Guinea-Bissau 16.3 2004
Guyana 19.2 Ave 2003-2005
Haiti 5.3 2004
Honduras 13.8 2004
Hong Kong (Spec Admin Reg China) 0.6 2004
Hungary 2.1 2004
Iceland 1 2004
India 5.5 2004
Indonesia 8.9 2004
Iran 2.9 2004
Iraq 6.7 2004
Ireland 1.1 2004
Israel 2.6 2004
Italy 1.2 2004
Jamaica 33.7 2004
Japan 0.5 2005
Jordan 1.2 2005
Kazakhstan 11.9 2005
Kenya 6.7 2005
Kiribati 6.5 2004
Korea, north 18.9 2004
Korea, south 2.2 2004
Kuwait 1.4 2004
Kyrgyzstan 8.1 2004
Lao People's Democratic Rep 5.4 2004
Latvia 8.6 2004
Lebanon 2.4 2005
Lesotho 37.3 2005
Liberia 16.8 2004
Libya 2.9 2004
Liechtenstein 2.9 2004
Lithuania 9.1 2004
Luxembourg 0.4 2004
Macedonia 2.4 2004
Madagascar 11.7 2004
Malawi 18 2004
Malaysia 2 2005
Maldives 2.1 2004
Mali 18 2004
Malta 1.7 2004
Marshall Islands 1.8 2004
Mauritania 15.2 2004
Mauritius 2.5 2004
Mexico 10.9 Ave 2004-2006
Micronesia 0.9 2004
Moldova 7.2 2004
Monaco 3.1 2004
Mongolia 13.1 2004
Montenegro 3.6 2005
Morocco 0.5 2004
Mozambique 20.2 2004
Namibia 12.8 2004
Nauru 9.9 2004
Nepal 2.1 2005
Netherlands 1.4 2004
New Zealand 1.5 2005
Nicaragua 17.4 Ave 2003-2005
Niger 20.2 2004
Nigeria 17.7 2004
Northern Ireland 2.4 2004
Norway 0.8 2004
Oman 2.1 2004
Pakistan 3.6 2004
Palau 0.9 2004
Palestinian Terr 4 2005
Panama 13.4 Ave 2002-2004
Papua New Guinea 15.2 2004
Paraguay 17.8 Ave 2004-2006
Peru 3 Ave 2002-2004
Philippines 21 2004
Poland 1.7 2004
Portugal 1.4 2004
Puerto Rico 18.9 Ave 2003-2005
Qatar 0.8 2004
Romania 2.4 2004
Russian Federation 29.7 2004
Rwanda 26.6 2004
Saint Kitts and Nevis 22.7 2004
Saint Lucia 21.3 2004
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 16 2004
Samoa 1.1 2004
Sao Tome and Principe 5.4 2004
Saudi Arabia 3.2 2004
Scotland 2.6 2004
Senegal 14.2 2004
Serbia 1.4 2005
Seychelles 3.5 2004
Sierra Leone 34 2004
Singapore 0.5 2004
Slovakia 2.3 2004
Slovenia 1.5 2004
Solomon Islands 1.5 2004
Somalia 3.3 2004
South Africa 39.5 2004
Spain 1.2 2004
Sri Lanka 7.2 2004
Sudan 28.6 2004
Suriname 11.8 Ave 2003-2005
Swaziland 12.7 2004
Sweden 1.2 2004
Switzerland 2.9 2004
Syria 1.2 2005
Tajikistan 2.4 2004
Tanzania 26.1 2004
Thailand 8.2 2005
Togo 13.7 2004
Tonga 1 2004
Trinidad and Tobago 13.7 2004
Tunisia 1.7 2004
Turkey 6.9 2004
Turkmenistan 7.8 2004
Uganda 7.3 2004
Ukraine 8 2004
United Arab Emirates 0.7 2004
Uruguay 4.7 Ave 2003-2005
USA 5.9 Ave 2003-2005
Uzbekistan 3.5 2004
Vanuatu 1 2004
Venezuela 32.5 Ave 2003-2005
Viet Nam 3.8 2004
Yemen 2.5 2004
Zambia 22.9 2004
Zimbabwe 8.4 2004

REPORTED murder rates.

I'm not going to count on a 3rd world country to come up with reliable statistics.

Streetwiseguy wrote: Summary table Murder rates around the world Click headings to sort Country/ Area Homicides per 100,000 pop Period Canada 1.5 Ave 2002-2004 USA 5.9 Ave 2003-2005

Well then lets get to the heart of the matter! ^^^. Sorry but most Canadians don't like our now gone Long Gun registry, but we also don't like the Gun culture.

BTW, if anyone bothered to follow the story - the guy was released, however authorities are refusing to apoligize.

His 4 year-old drew a picture of herself holding a gun and then told her teacher that her dad let her use the gun unsupervised. In Ontario a teacher must report that kind of stuff (It is the law). Turns out it was one of those toy plastic guns that shoots plastic disks across the room.

I think the guy does deserve an apology.