Breaker panel question

My house has a breaker panel that is not only full, but uses breakers that are hard to find. The main breaker (150 amps)is outside by the meter. 

There are quite a few of those tiny doubled up breakers. 

I see two options:

1. Change the main to 200 amps and have the wire from the main to the panel changed. This would allow a 200 amp panel to be swapped in. I can also get a square D which has easier to source breakers. 

2. Piggy back another panel to the main. Is this even an option? 

The main reasons I want to upgrade are that I want to install a mini split in the garage, and last year the AC breaker broke and we had to source a used one in order to get it up and running. Took a couple of days. 

If I swap the panel, do you guys think is something I can tackle myself? I am not concerned about the job, but mostly fitting the new box in there. Is that going to be a pita? Better to leave to a professional?

A few pics:

Current panel:

Main breaker and meter:

And the cable run from the meter to the breaker box. This would not be difficult for an electrician and I would not even try to tackle myself as I don't want to mess with the main. 

I'm not an electrician.

Looks like the Pool is piggybacked to the main panel already.  I don't see why you couldn't add an additional panel to do what you want off the main.  As long as you don't draw more than 150 amps at any given time, you would be fine as it is. 

If you want to re-do everything, then I guess a 200 amp main, swap out the wires if needed, and replace that old panel with a modern one that you can get parts for.  Yeah, that'd be a lot of work, but that would get you a panel with breakers you could buy. Don't know if you'd have enough breaker slots in the new one to add more stuff, though.  You're using like 30 spots there now, not counting the double thingies.  Didn't even know they made those.  So I think you're going to need another sub panel any way you look at it.

I am also not an electrician, but I think the two questions of the main breaker size and the panel capacity that lives behind it are independent.  That is, you already have well over 150A worth of breakers in the panel that's living behind the 150A breaker -- that's fine, that's what that breaker is for.

So the question is, do you need more instantaneous current, or do you just need more circuits?

Going from 150A to 200A may well mean swapping the wires from the pole to the house and installing a larger meter.  That's not a DIY project (pretty sure electric company won't even let you touch their wires).  The rest depends on how much confidence you have in your electrician skills. :)  Having watched the electricians do it at our house, it's not something I'd try myself.

In reply to Slippery :

There is no way you have given us enough information to guess whether you are qualified to do this. As a general rule, I would never tell a homeowner it was a DIY job, unless they gave me a lot of information indicating they had the needed experience. 

You haven't. 

Regarding a sub panel... it can be done. The first thing I would do, however, is start load testing the circuits. I seriously doubt you need that many circuits. 

BTW, you have at least 2 places in that panel where a 240 breaker is being used for 2 separate 120 circuits- That’s a big no no. Mr Perfection Inspection is not so perfect. 

SVreX said:

BTW, you have at least 2 places in that panel where a 240 breaker is being used for 2 separate 120 circuits- That’s a big no no. Mr Perfection Inspection is not so perfect. 

Which ones? Explain please so that I can get it corrected. 

BTW, let’s not assume  Perfection Inspection’s qualifications.  He inspected the house over 10 years ago and there have been no less than 4 electricians since. 

Dishwasher and disposal  

Master bath and Living room. 

Both appear to be 240v breakers (although I am viewing on my phone, so I could be mistaken)

I think you should probably call an electrician. I'm not one but I've been around it enough to know that there is more to it than installing parts. Things like "balancing the box", amps and breaker/ wire size, permits to do the work, etc.

In reply to Slippery :

With all due respect, you just confirmed for me that swapping that panel may be beyond your level of expertise. 

SVreX said:

In reply to Slippery :

With all due respect, you just confirmed for me that swapping that panel may be beyond your level of expertise. 

How so? Are we going to keep assuming?

BTW so those breakers are 220v but they are not properly labeled. 

I’m not assuming anything. 

You were unable to tell the difference between a 240v breaker and a 120 v breaker. Swapping that panel is beyond your skill level. 

They are not supposed to be 220v. Those are 120v circuits. 

I am an electrician,  if you just needed a couple of additional circuits you could probably add a sub panel. Having said that  it will be a little tricky as your current  panel is recessed in the wall. You will need to open up the wall to get access to the wiring. It looks like you have 10 mini breakers, ideally you want to get them back to regular single pole breakers.  So you need at least a 12 circuit sub panel for what you want, that leads you to a 20 circuit panel to allow for a little  expansion. As much as you may not "need" a 200 A service it might be a good investment. But, there is always a but. It appears your service comes from the utility underground,  so if you upgrade to 200A you will need to up size that wire also and it looks like you may have to proper size pipe (2") but it is hard to tell from the picture. Either way it will be some work and I would not recommend a project of this scope to be your first try at being an electrician. 

TL/DR,  serious project, hire a pro. Less expensive in the long run.  Least expensive will be a 20 circuit 100A sub panel, but that doesn't solve your issue with breaker availability.  Have a few people come out and get recommendations and quotes, go with your gut when hiring, cheaper is not always the best way.

I would be willing to bet that you (or an electrician) can find some additional space in the existing panel by cleaning up what is there/consolidating circuits.  That being said, and as you mentioned Slippery, installing a higher amp service is no small job on a number of levels.

Some food for thought...

• Take a look at your meter and enclosure.  It (or they) should have a maximum amp rating listed.  If it is 150 amps, and you want to upsize to 200, those will have to be changed out too.
• There are two basic considerations here- physical space and ampacity.  Just because a wire is connected to, say, a 20 amp breaker, that doesn't mean it it is utilizing all 20 available amps.  Rather that is a physical space that is "taken up".  Next, imagine turning every single electrical thing in your house on at the same time- would your 150 amp main breaker trip?  If so, you are limited on ampacity and would indeed want to consider going for a bigger service.
• Take a good look at what is listed in your panel.  Then ask yourself if it seems accurate.  I.e. there is an electric range listed as being fed by a 2 pole breaker.  But I have a gas range!  You just found more space in your panel you can use for something else.  Same for the water heater- is it gas?  If yes, you just found more space.
• Having some current readings taken in your panel will be a good indicator of what direction to go in for your split unit project.  If you've never had trouble with breakers tripping, including the main, I doubt you have an ampacity problem.  Rather a physical space problem.

There are pages and pages written in the nat'l electrical code about sizing residential services.  I won't even pretend to know what 1/4 of it says since I don't do that kind of work for a living.  In addition there should be a set of local codes that apply too.  To do it correctly, it is not a small undertaking!

**Edit** I would second the points Imgon made 100%

SVreX said:

I’m not assuming anything. 

You were unable to tell the difference between a 240v breaker and a 120 v breaker. Swapping that panel is beyond your skill level. 

They are not supposed to be 220v. Those are 120v circuits. 

Lol, I know what a 120v and a 240v breaker look like. What I didnt know is what considered 240v breakers being used for single two separate 120v circuits. 

Your last paragraph is incorrect. 

imgon said:

I am an electrician,  if you just needed a couple of additional circuits you could probably add a sub panel. Having said that  it will be a little tricky as your current  panel is recessed in the wall. You will need to open up the wall to get access to the wiring. It looks like you have 10 mini breakers, ideally you want to get them back to regular single pole breakers.  So you need at least a 12 circuit sub panel for what you want, that leads you to a 20 circuit panel to allow for a little  expansion. As much as you may not "need" a 200 A service it might be a good investment. But, there is always a but. It appears your service comes from the utility underground,  so if you upgrade to 200A you will need to up size that wire also and it looks like you may have to proper size pipe (2") but it is hard to tell from the picture. Either way it will be some work and I would not recommend a project of this scope to be your first try at being an electrician. 

TL/DR,  serious project, hire a pro. Less expensive in the long run.  Least expensive will be a 20 circuit 100A sub panel, but that doesn't solve your issue with breaker availability.  Have a few people come out and get recommendations and quotes, go with your gut when hiring, cheaper is not always the best way.

Thanks much. Excellent post. 

Yes, I have underground service. The pipe is 2.375” OD. 

I guess my question to you would be, would you do a subpanel or start from scratch and get a bigger panel?

Again as I mentioned in my first post, I am not going to touch anything upstream of my panel. 

My question is; how hard is it to find those breakers, and how much juice do you need in the garage?  Seems like the easy button is to use one of the blank knockouts in the main breaker panel.

Sure, they're hard to find, but if you can find the one you need, you have the space and it is a lot easier to DIY that than a whole panel.  I'm a pretty good electrical guy, but I only ever tackled two panel jobs and I wouldn't do it again.  They were both new service; one in dad's pole barn, and one in a new garage.  I just lack the confidence.

You're at least lucky on those 240v breakers feeding two 120v circuits... they are a double-throw.  Pull the tie bars off.  Right now, if you try to draw too much from the disposal for instance, it may not trip because it is physically tied to the dishwasher side.  Pull the tie bar off and you'll effectively have two single pole breakers that happen to be in one enclosure.  Not kosher, but it will add safety until you fix it properly.

I would also verify that those 240v/120v circuits the we're talking about are run on their own 2-conductor wg runs and not into a single 3-conductor wg.  If that is the case, they're sharing a neutral.  In some cases that is kosher.  In other cases it is not.  I'm sure SVrex will correct me if I'm wrong on that.  He's the guru on this.

I'm also a little envious of your labeling.  Mine is so scribbled, altered, crossed out, faded pencil, pink pen, and sharpie.  I can't tell what is what.  Some day my project will be to shut it off and use my tone generator to trace everything and properly label/number each circuit.  Right now the only ones I can read are the three circuits I added for the patio, the dishwasher, and the HVAC.  I like to write the breaker number on the back of the box cover for each switch or outlet.

If you do keep the current panel, go ahead and order a few spare breakers. That way you're not shut down waiting for parts when the next one goes. I have some older panels in my house and have a few spare breakers sitting in the basement for just this reason.

In reply to Curtis :

You’re right. I noticed the labeling. Very impressive. 

I would swap out the panel, and if you are looking to add anything to the garage, upgrade to a 200A service.

Call an electrician.  Just not me, I hate residential.

In reply to Slippery :

Finding breakers shouldn't be any trouble. You have a Challenger panel, which was bought by Cutler Hammer/ Eaton. The Cutler Hammer/ Eaton BR style breakers are very common. But keep in mind that breaker manufacturers go through distribution partners in a similar manner as car dealers. If your closest hardware store is a Square D dealer and you go in for a Cutler Hammer breaker, it's like asking for a Chevy water pump at a Ford dealer. 

Also looking at your panel, you currently have a few wrong brand breakers in there. That's technically a no-no and shouldn't pass inspection, but it's not uncommon for people to jam the wrong breaker types in a panel.

In reply to Slippery :

It would probably be a good idea to start with figuring out what you really have going on. You also need to decide what your future plans might be. As Paranoid Android said you may be able to combine some circuits and free up some space. I'll also second what Boost Crazy said that Challenger breakers are still available. So let's say the previous owner only put 2 receptacles per circuit and filled up the panel with breakers with hardly any load on them. You could combine lightly loaded circuits and free up space that way, (this seems unlikely but who knows), it will be a bit time consuming to trace all the circuits but you will know exactly what is fed from where when you are done. Even if you free up enough space to add a 2 pole breaker for a new AC, what are future plans for the house/garage. Adding a pool, a welder, big compressor, lift, etc. If you think you will be adding some significant loads your best bet will be to upgrade the service. That would mean replacing; the wiring back to the utility connection, the meter/breaker panel, wiring between the meter and panel and a new 200A panel. If you have all the equipment that you think you will want you can likely stick with the service you have.

Do you really have 2 ovens? Maybe a cooktop and a wall oven? Some of the labeling would lead me to believe your panel really is full as most of the breakers seem to be feeding normal loads, but that is based on it being properly labeled.

The mini breakers are not the best thing in the world but they are allowed in the bottom section of the panel, there is a note on the panel cover as to where they can be used and they are supposed to be the same brand as the panel (for UL reasons).

They do make 42 circuit 150A panels and that might be your best option. You can keep all the wiring feeding the panel (as longs as the main lugs are in about the same places) and just swap out the panel. Depending on how far a run it is to the the utility connection it may not be much more to upgrade to 200A if you end up having someone to do everything.

Call a couple of electricians and see what they say. 

In reply to Curtis :

In these parts, if two seperate circuits are sharing a neutral, they must be fed from breakers that have trip handles tied together.  That is, those two breakers sharing the neutral must open together if there is a fault on either circuit.

Two and three pole breakers that have handle ties on them (common trip) from the manufacturer need to remain intact to maintain their listing.

-----

The name game in electrical stuff can be a pain to keep track of.  Westinghouse, Cutler Hammer, Eaton, etc. changed names so many times it makes my head spin.  This is where I rely on my supply house to get me the proper stuff that will fit.

Getting in touch with a couple electricians is a great idea.