Brexit

Jay wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: So... the EU wants to be the like the US. Each country (state) under common rule buy has their own govt and open borders to one another, but not to other non-countries (Canada/Mexico). So basically, the UK is acting like the confederates during our civil war. MAnkind is doomed to repeat our history.

Furious_E wrote: In reply to Jay: But doesn't giving the govt of the UK more freedom by proxy give the people more power as well? (in theory anyways) At least they have a hand in electing their members of parliament, whereas they have no direct vote in EU matters.

I don't believe for an instant that governments are remotely representative of "the will of the people" (this vote is a pretty good example of how that worked.) The EU leadership is also 'elected' for what it's worth, every European living in any member state can vote (as I was invited to when I lived there... actually I could probably still vote now even though I'm not living in the EU at the moment, but I can't be arsed.) I see things like re-imposing visa restrictions to move abroad (note: it's not even remotely clear if that will happen) and re-implementing protectionist measures to keep businesses from doing business in other jurisdictions as HUGE reductions in freedoms, regardless of how much say they have in the (very) local leadership.

I agree with that first statement wholeheartedly, as yet another libertarian here. I just see it as the more layers of the power structure you remove, the easier it is to influence the government and affect change. I am apparently mistaken in how leadership of the EU is selected, as that is what I was lead to believe in some of the coverage leading up to the vote.

How does the nomination and election process work for EU leadership?

PHeller wrote: The idea just hit me, what if instead of an electoral college putting weight in poorly populated areas to balance highly populated area, we weighted age groups stronger based on number of years of life expectancy. Not a dramatic weight, but just enough that in 50/50 counts, it would bump up the count with younger voters. Imagine the irony of comments like "for last 50 years the young vote has messed up our country."

Oh, please! We all know that young people do most of their thinking with their reproductive organs. With age comes wisdom. Young people are naive, materialistic, and gullible. How else do you explain a tired old socialist like Bernie Sanders polling so well amongst the young? Anyone that's not so wet behind the ears has seen it all before. Go read a history book!

PHeller wrote: The idea just hit me, what if instead of an electoral college putting weight in poorly populated areas to balance highly populated area, we weighted age groups stronger based on number of years of life expectancy. Not a dramatic weight, but just enough that in 50/50 counts, it would bump up the count with younger voters. Imagine the irony of comments like "for last 50 years the young vote has messed up our country."

Do you honestly want the "We have no idea what is going on" millennial crowd to have that much power right now? Great Scott, I'm one of the early members of their ranks, and think that would be the worst idea in the history of mankind.....although I could probably manipulate them into establishing a dictatorship to launch my diabolical dream of world domination.

Bobzilla wrote:

ThunderCougarFalconGoat wrote:

bastomatic wrote:

While this is an interesting poll, it does go to show how you can make 'facts' mean whatever you want them to mean. Instead of focusing on life remaining, a poll that shows years of "living under EU rule" would indicate that people who've been under the "EU rule" the longest want out more than those who haven't dealt with it as a working adult all that long.

I was thinking hte same thing, but refrained from mentioning it in my less eloquent tongue.

The Simpsons really did do it first.

In reply to 1988RedT2:

I believe we are of the same train of thought.....lol I identify more as a roaring 20's generation member than my own, so they can get off my lawn!

Bobzilla wrote:

ThunderCougarFalconGoat wrote:

bastomatic wrote:

While this is an interesting poll, it does go to show how you can make 'facts' mean whatever you want them to mean. Instead of focusing on life remaining, a poll that shows years of "living under EU rule" would indicate that people who've been under the "EU rule" the longest want out more than those who haven't dealt with it as a working adult all that long.

I was thinking hte same thing, but refrained from mentioning it in my less eloquent tongue. The british have now been under EU rule since the mid 70's. Long before most of these "remain" people were even thought about being concieved.

Yeah you can formulate that however you want, but if you chop off the end column the statistics are interesting on their own. Here's my take:

...and that little society-changer isn't going away anytime soon (or ever.)

1988RedT2 wrote: Oh, please! We all know that young people do most of their thinking with their reproductive organs. With age comes wisdom. Young people are naive, materialistic, and gullible. How else do you explain a tired old socialist like Bernie Sanders polling so well amongst the young? Anyone that's not so wet behind the ears has seen it all before. Go read a history book!

Every demographic (age, gender, "race", whatever) has a lot of people in it who want their demographic (defined as however they like to identify themselves) to rule over everyone else because they clearly know best. Once again the massive split in the brexit vote is a perfect example.

WOW Really Paul? wrote: In reply to Jay: It's very strange, to many people the whole majority thing seems to be perfectly acceptable to utilize cramming E36 M3 down the minority's throats....doesn't matter what it is about, it's still wrong on all fronts. I would say this could have a potential benefit to the UK in the long term by not being forced to pay for other member nations' mismanagement of their own finances.....we're looking at you Greece & Spain. It could also blow up in their faces equally as well. Only time will tell.

You could argue pretty well that Britian was Greece or Spain when they joined up in the '70s. Having access to the common market pulled them out of some pretty dire straits.

In this ever increasing global market, you really think it's necessary to pay into a union like this? I mean, all the things you're arguing for, are the same as what you're arguing against. Am I the only one seeing this?

In reply to Jay:

Those people in the older generation might be having remorse....I admit I am not up to date on the EU stuff since I never researched it. Has it fundamentally changed in the last 40 years?

Bobzilla wrote: In this ever increasing global market, you really think it's necessary to pay into a union like this? I mean, all the things you're arguing for, are the same as what you're arguing against. Am I the only one seeing this?

Well if they wanted to keep the free-trade agreement, open borders, freedom of movement, freedom of goods transport, etc. and ditch a lot of the inane standardization & harmonization bureaucracy I'd be fine with that. But yeah I am arguing that giving up some insular nationalism in favor of a wider-looking society is a good thing on the whole, and leads to a freer populace.

I have no data whatsoever but I don't believe the average European pays a significant amount of taxes directly to support the EU. Most of what they pay goes to the same tired old national governments who then dole it out as they see fit. I seriously doubt British taxpayers or businesses will see much of a break from this.

Jay wrote:

Bobzilla wrote:

ThunderCougarFalconGoat wrote:

bastomatic wrote:

While this is an interesting poll, it does go to show how you can make 'facts' mean whatever you want them to mean. Instead of focusing on life remaining, a poll that shows years of "living under EU rule" would indicate that people who've been under the "EU rule" the longest want out more than those who haven't dealt with it as a working adult all that long.

I was thinking hte same thing, but refrained from mentioning it in my less eloquent tongue. The british have now been under EU rule since the mid 70's. Long before most of these "remain" people were even thought about being concieved.

Yeah you can formulate that however you want, but if you chop off the end column the statistics are interesting on their own. Here's my take: ...and *that* little society-changer isn't going away anytime soon (or ever.)

So you believe people are only allowed to have one ideology throughout their entire lives? Or do you believe that people start out as 18-24 year old Remainers and slowly transition into 25-dead Leavers as they age? Because otherwise, your statement makes no sense.

In reply to Jay:

They pay into their government and those governments pay into the EU if I understood the gist of it a when we glossed over it a decade ago in economics class. Basically an economic version of NATO that can still be brought down by its weakest link.

Funny, we were just sitting here at work talking about the absolutely POOR choices I made as a 18-24 year old person. How many of us really have a clue at that age? How many of us are more likely to follow the first great idea we hear and jump in regardless of how it is likely to impact us?

ThunderCougarFalconGoat wrote:

Jay wrote: ...and *that* little society-changer isn't going away anytime soon (or ever.)

So you believe people are only allowed to have one ideology throughout their entire lives? Or do you believe that people start out as 18-24 year old Remainers and slowly transition into 25-dead Leavers as they age? Because otherwise, your statement makes no sense.

Instantaneous, cheap, global communication is the thing that isn't going away. It sprung up out of nowhere in the early-mid '90s (keyword: cheap, and available to everyone, not just governments or military) and we're still dealing with the ramifications of that. And yes, I do believe this has caused a complete, fundamental change in society and those of us who grew up with it aren't going to "revert" to whatever the hell our grandparents thought just because we get old.

ThunderCougarFalconGoat wrote:

Jay wrote:

Bobzilla wrote:

ThunderCougarFalconGoat wrote:

bastomatic wrote:

While this is an interesting poll, it does go to show how you can make 'facts' mean whatever you want them to mean. Instead of focusing on life remaining, a poll that shows years of "living under EU rule" would indicate that people who've been under the "EU rule" the longest want out more than those who haven't dealt with it as a working adult all that long.

I was thinking hte same thing, but refrained from mentioning it in my less eloquent tongue. The british have now been under EU rule since the mid 70's. Long before most of these "remain" people were even thought about being concieved.

Yeah you can formulate that however you want, but if you chop off the end column the statistics are interesting on their own. Here's my take: ...and *that* little society-changer isn't going away anytime soon (or ever.)

So you believe people are only allowed to have one ideology throughout their entire lives? Or do you believe that people start out as 18-24 year old Remainers and slowly transition into 25-dead Leavers as they age? Because otherwise, your statement makes no sense.

You missed his point.

I'm in regular contact with a Canadian, German, at least three people in England/Scotland, and an American who lives in Poland. And that isn't counting this board or any of the Koreans or Japanese folks I keep up with.

My grandpa (1925-2015) kept up with a Japanese woman who lived in London, and that only because she was a foreign exchange student who lived with him and his family for a year.

I know more about foreign cultures and economies than my grandpa did because of Facebook alone, and he was a very smart man.

Bobzilla wrote:

ThunderCougarFalconGoat wrote:

bastomatic wrote:

While this is an interesting poll, it does go to show how you can make 'facts' mean whatever you want them to mean. Instead of focusing on life remaining, a poll that shows years of "living under EU rule" would indicate that people who've been under the "EU rule" the longest want out more than those who haven't dealt with it as a working adult all that long.

I was thinking hte same thing, but refrained from mentioning it in my less eloquent tongue. The british have now been under EU rule since the mid 70's. Long before most of these "remain" people were even thought about being concieved.

What I haven't heard in all this- what does "EU Rule" actually mean?

And when they call Brussels some unelected group- who is representing the UK?

Specifically.

I think there is something very fundamental here and with the current mood in the US. People who "feel that the world has changed and they haven't benefitted from it" vote one way.. People who "Feel that the world has changed for the better" vote another. Basically, one group thinks the world has passed them by and they want their "old" world back....

That's not really how history works.

ThunderCougarFalconGoat wrote:

bastomatic wrote:

While this is an interesting poll, it does go to show how you can make 'facts' mean whatever you want them to mean. Instead of focusing on life remaining, a poll that shows years of "living under EU rule" would indicate that people who've been under the "EU rule" the longest want out more than those who haven't dealt with it as a working adult all that long.

While this is an interesting observation, it does go to show how you can make 'facts' mean whatever you want them to mean.

Instead of focusing on "living under EU rule", a poll that shows percentage of life "living under EU rule" would indicate that people who've been under the "EU rule" the smallest percentage of their life want out more than those who have been under it a larger percentage.

(just to be clear, your point about "years working under" is reasonable, but I am suspicious that that may not be the real issue, or the original conclusion)

In reply to mtn and Jay:

I did miss the little side comment on the graph, my apologies. Now I understand your statement. However, instantaneous communication with the majority of the globe does not guarantee a person wont change their ideological views as they age, nor does it require that they will.

Just because young people live in the internet age and voted to remain doesn't mean that in 10 or 20 years their views would be different or the same.

In reply to aircooled:

I don't think it is either, that was just an example of the same facts being used to show a different conclusion.

Relevant to this discussion: I think leaving the EU will only hurt Britain.

Not relevant but WTF. Some of this conversation sounds so NWO/Utopia. Maybe I've had my fill of the latest social media "deep thoughts" from the younger generations (I'm not that old myself) but the self-righteousness and hatred being spewed by the "enlightened ones" over this is making me cranky. Time for my warm milk and a nap.

mapper wrote: Time for my warm milk and a nap.

Is it that late already! No wonder I'm tired...

Actually, I think all this window dressing. After a few market shifts, and several years to work out the details, all of this will be a non-issue. In the end, I don't believe it will be either good or bad, depending on your view.

Speaking with a Brit friend today, his basic comment was that most people there are simply fed up with all the EU rules that come along, and that they don't seem to have any say about them. Not sure what laws specifically he was referring to, but that is my only insight into the this from someone there.

From what I can understand, England and mostly Germany, have the best economies and are footing more and more of the EU bills. But England existed before, and they will after, just fine. The EU I believe will suffer worse than the UK. I would imagine they need the UK dollars more than England needs the EU. We'll see, but given the amount of time it is going to take before any of this happens, I still believe it will all be a non-issue.

mapper wrote: . Not relevant but WTF. Some of this conversation sounds so NWO/Utopia.

This is what scares me. Across the board, I am hearing all sorts of stuff that SCREAMS of people clamouring for a one world government. It scares me E36 M3less.

I think of societies like Star Trek and Stormship Troopers (or hell, Star Wars) and it gives me the heebie jeebies. I have no idea where this "one world, everybody is the same, everyone has the same rules" idea came from, but it freaks me the f&%k out. I legitimately think these people are batE36 M3 crazy, but then 99% of news media writes stuff about how globalization is "in danger" and Im all "who the f-%k said 100% globalization is a GOOD thing??!"

1988RedT2 wrote:

PHeller wrote: The idea just hit me, what if instead of an electoral college putting weight in poorly populated areas to balance highly populated area, we weighted age groups stronger based on number of years of life expectancy. Not a dramatic weight, but just enough that in 50/50 counts, it would bump up the count with younger voters. Imagine the irony of comments like "for last 50 years the young vote has messed up our country."

Oh, please! We all know that young people do most of their thinking with their reproductive organs. With age comes wisdom. Young people are naive, materialistic, and gullible. How else do you explain a tired old socialist like Bernie Sanders polling so well amongst the young? Anyone that's not so wet behind the ears has seen it all before. Go read a history book!

Did you refer to Bernie Sanders as a sex symbol?

In reply to HiTempguy:

Maybe it's time for a new spin on an old slogan:

"Don't trust anyone under 30."

(I'll make an exception for those with the last name of Suddard. )