Buying American

So clearly, this topic is flame-bait. I get that, but let's try and have a reasonable discussion without too much name calling... please.

The Harbor Freight Tool thread tangented (yea, I made that word up) onto this topic:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/hf-tool-passfail/50437/page1/

And rather than thread jack a useful thread, I figured I would start another.

The question is, should you buy American? That isn't as easy of a question to answer as it might appear on the surface. To begin to answer the question, you have to first define what is "American"?

For example, is the Toyota Tundra American? Well, Toyota is very clearly a Japanese company; however, the assembly of the truck is completely done in America (Indiana), by Americans. So, if you buy a Tundra are you buying American?

Another example, the Chevrolet Impala. Converse of the previous example, Chevy is an American company, but the assembly of the car is in Canada. So is it American? (Note: it does appear that with the latest model some assembly has been moved to Detroit area).

Now, we could go deeper and discuss components on each of these cars which come from any number of American and non-American companies and manufacturers, but I think you get where I am headed.

To pick an example that isn't a car company: is Apple an American company? Founded here, employ a lot of people here, manufacture their products in China and other low cost markets.

The point is this: the world is flat, and getting smaller each day. Technology brings us closer together and makes marketplace competition closer. Because of that, there are very few companies that are purely "American" these days. Most companies are global, even if their customers are only domestic.

Do I buy American? Yea, when I can and when it makes sense to do so. My family shops at a grocery store that only sells produce and meats from farms within the surrounding 50 mile radius. Not only am I buying American, I am supporting my local community and eating better / healthier in the process. Is everything I own American? No. Do I always prefer American products? No. A lot of times, American products are produced at a lower quality in an effort to compete at a lower price point. I believe this to be the wrong approach. I try and buy the best product for the money.

When companies shift jobs overseas, what is the impact? Well, short term they get a cost savings and there may be some domestic job loss as a result. In the long term what happens is that the standard of living in the off-shore location increases, as that does so does the labor rate. At a tipping point, the cost savings fail to out-weigh the service / support / quality / PR aspects and the jobs begin to move back on-shore. Think about customer service and phone support. Several years back there was a significant shift to off-shore that role to India. In the years since, the cost of living has increased in India and rates have gone up. The rates, while still cheaper than the US in most cases, are not covering the loss of customer retention. Meaning customers dissatisfied with their service experience are not continuing to do business with that company. Most companies (Dell Computers is a good example) have since moved that role back on-shore.

I believe you should support "good" companies, or companies that align with your beliefs and moral standards (green, fair labor, etc.), and then support companies that provide good products, serve as innovators, and/or are good stewards of business. And then of course buy American!

If presented with two products that are equal in every way, one is American, the other is not... then i buy American.

Any other situation, i buy the superior product, and don't pay one single piece of attention to the COO. Doesn't matter if that's American, Taiwan, German, etc etc etc.

I buy what works, origin doesn't matter to me. I will never buy an inferior product just because its made in 'murica.

I realize that this thread is really about everything, but its a car forum, In our driveway is a Korean car bought new, an American car bought new, and a used Japanese car. I guess I need something european to diversify more.

A thread about this topic came up a few months back and prompted me to look at labels more. Not that it influences my purchasing decisions much, but seems like 95% of those "American" brands are just made in China anymore.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: If presented with two products that are equal in every way, one is American, the other is not... then i buy American. Any other situation, i buy the superior product, and don't pay one single piece of attention to the COO. Doesn't matter if that's American, Taiwan, German, etc etc etc.

^^^^This. If everything were 100% equal, then I'll buy "American". Otherwise, I'm buying the best bang for my buck. The auto market is so mixed now, that most cars have multinational components to them.

Two links that may be helpful:
http://www.madehereinamerica.com/Pages/default.aspx

Recent automotive domestic content (where domestic means US and Canada with no distinction between the two.)
http://www.nhtsa.gov/Vehicle+Safety/Part+583+American+Automobile+Labeling+Act+%28AALA%29+Reports

Above you mentioned the local food.
One that really gets me is the lack of availability of domestic seafood. Here in Ohio, if I shop for shrimp or talapia (which is frozen) it will always be farm raised in China or Thailand.

I didn't read your post to be honest. I'll just say this. I try to buy american made stuff when I can (let's say furnature, tools, appliances, things like that) because I feel they are better made, in my experience. Some of those things I listed are nearly impossible to buy American. I stay away from Chinese made stuff, cuz it's crap in my experience.
Now, about cars. The line has been blurred for a long time. I look at it this way. If I were to buy a Honda made in Ohio I may be supporting the Japanese company, but I'm also supporting the economy kept alive by that plant. I'm helping to feed the workers on the line, the hi-lo drivers, the truck drivers, the owner of the diner down the road where they eat before/after work and so on. I think the Buy American argument is dead as far as cars go.

DrBoost wrote: I think the Buy American argument is dead as far as cars go.

Exactly... frankly, it's dead as far as most things and companies go.

The answer is "It depends."

I try to buy from companies who treat their employees with a little care. So I try to avoid Walmart.

In the last few years I have adopted a behavior that has doubtless saved me hundreds if not thousands of dollars. When I'm impulse shopping and I pick up a product that I think I might be able to use, I will check the country of origin. If it says "Made in China" I put it back on the shelf.

Quality over place of origin. But an identical product built in China vs. built thirty miles away, yea of course I'll buy the one from thirty miles away for a little more money.

And I agree that for cars it's impossible. I own a Saturn (headquartered formerly in Michigan, assembled in Tennessee) but all kinds of components in it come from all over the world. And Michigan and Tennessee don't make many replacement parts for it anymore. A lot of those you HAVE to buy from Mexico or China.

So many American companies outsource production that it is almost impossible to tell what is made in the USA anyway. Some things, like cast iron foundries, are just about gone from the US so you really have no choice. And so many American companies are foreign-owned (Chrysler) that the lines are completely blurred. Even products that are 100% made in the USA still have to compete with imports, and their quality can suffer as a result. And how many people in the USA make their living working for a foreign-based company? (full disclosure: I do.) A larger percentage of your dollar might go to American workers when you buy an Accord than if you buy a Impala.

So I don't think there is a valid reason to blindly buy "Made in the USA" anymore, mostly because it is hard to do, it is no guarantee of quality and it doesn't necessarily mean that the money is staying here or helping fellow Americans. I would never pay more for inferior or similar quality just because something was made in the USA.

I'm a manufacturing engineer. I try as hard as I can to keep work in the USA.
Somehow, it seems to me, the more of us have jobs here, the better off this country will be.
Obviously, everyone can make their own choice on this, but even if something is a few more bucks, I will buy the USA-built stuff.
If it's a foreign company that builds here, that's OK with me.
And if it's an American company that keep a big part of it's footprint here, I'm OK with that too (for example, a GM car built in Canada).
We have several British "hobby" cars, but all our new appliance cars are US built. In some cases I'll go out of my way to buy North American (USA, Canada and Mexico) over stuff from Asia.
And if there is little choice (like electronics), I'll buy stuff made where the governments are a bit more transparent such as Taiwan, India or S. Korea before I'll buy Chinese stuff.
I always look at "Made In..." lables.

Klayfish wrote: ^^^^This. If everything were 100% equal, then I'll buy "American". Otherwise, I'm buying the best bang for my buck. The auto market is so mixed now, that most cars have multinational components to them.

^^^This.

In all honesty everything has mixed parts in it. I worked for a gas line survey company for a number of years and we built equipment for testing for gas leaks. Although our entire company was based in the US and the equipment was built in house, some components we need to build the equipment was from other countries. We had electric air pumps that we sourced from Germany, some small plastics from China, and diodes/resistors from Taiwan.

Would that be considered an American product when a good bit of the parts inside were manufactured in other countries? We did use raw materials as far as metal and plastic stock to manufacture some things, it just wasn't feasible to make our own resistors and diodes.

BradLTL wrote:

DrBoost wrote: I think the Buy American argument is dead as far as cars go.

Exactly... frankly, it's dead as far as most things and companies go.

Knowing where lots of development dollars are spent, I whole heartedly disagree.

That, and the "non-US sourced parts" tends to be way over stated. It happens, but if you honestly think an Ohian bult Honda is More American than a Michigan built Focus, well....

And if you really think that US manufacturers have a lot of imported products, you may want to check their investor sites to see their plant distribution. I know of a company that is constantly thought of not American but has 3 plants in Mexico, 6 in Canada, and 26 in the US.

Heres a different view: my company grinds parts for a certain motorcycle manufacturer. The machine that does it was built in Cincinnati, OH. We use German and Italian gauging equipment. The guys manning the machine are Hispanic and/or Hmong immigrants. The lift truck used to move things around is a Nissan. We're located in Wisconsin. My grandfather, who founded this company, was a Hungarian immigrant.

Yeah, I'd say we're a "global" company.

My father-in-law left the sticks of Alabama and moved to Chicago to get a factory job with Fisher Body/General Motors. 30 years driving a fork lift and working shipping. Plant was shut down years ago.

My wife has three cousins that still live in the sticks of Alabama and drive to a Honda plant to work in a factory.

Feels like nothing has changed but a bunch of American dudes making a living working for a car company. Just a different name on the door. (where profits go is different)

Datsun310Guy wrote: Feels like nothing has changed but a bunch of American dudes making a living working for a car company. Just a different name on the door. (where profits go is different)

I may be dead wrong here, but it occurs to me that where profits go is relatively inconsequential compared to where the costs of operation go. I say this on the grounds that R&D, materials, production labor, office management, and the other five quintillion little details that go into turning an idea into a physical product dwarf the profits made when all is said and done.

I'm also curious about the way, to pick an example, that global Honda and U.S. Honda are related. At what point does the U.S. arm of a foreign country essentially become an American company which happens to make a lot of international phone calls?

I'd rather buy an icecream from the local shop than a corporate chain.

I like a lot of these new American microbrews. I wonder if they buy the ingredients in the US.

In reply to Otto Maddox:

One my my local breweries (the Lucky Lab) does a beer each year called The Mutt. It's brewed with hops brought in by patrons who have hop bines.

The batch with my little bag of hops included was quite tasty

Okay, I didn't make any money as a hop farmer, but it was deliciously local.

1988RedT2 wrote: In the last few years I have adopted a behavior that has doubtless saved me hundreds if not thousands of dollars. When I'm impulse shopping and I pick up a product that I think I might be able to use, I will check the country of origin. If it says "Made in China" I put it back on the shelf.

I try to do the same, but am not always successful.

Of the 4 cars in my driveway, 3 were made in America. One in Michigan, one in Illinois, and one in Indiana. Three of the four cars are Japanese-branded. Only my new Fit was made outside of the US.

I'm inclined to spend a litle more to buy American, but I will not spend more for something of noticeably lower quality. Also, regaridng Harbor Freight-type tools, I tend to buy the kind of stuff I just flat out won't buy American because it wouldn't make sense, ie. the America version is orders of magnitude more expensive, and its something with a very limited application, so it'd be cheaper just to take the car to a shop to have the work done.

Oh, and next time you are in Sears, look at the "traditional"-style Craftsman ratchets. They're made in China now. The quick release ones are now made in Taiwan. Only the newer style is made in the USA.

With cars, I used to have the opinion that it's a global market, and cars are too expensive to buy out of patriotism.
But things have changed. Domestic cars are getting better. Some Japanese cars are getting worse. But Japan isn't our problem, China is. They all but own us. I now buy American any time I can, and I pay more to do so. I'm surprised at how many times I can look at the variety of a product in a store and find USA made products right next to Chinese products, and sometimes with not much price difference.
Flourescent bulbs are a good example. Another is electric buffers. Everyone I know raves about their high dollar, made in China DeWalt, and I bought a USA made Dynabrade for the same price, and it's better.
The move to producing products in China was driven by consumers constantly demanding more for less. It can be driven back here if we start buying more USA made goods. Of course, it would take everyone doing that, and that's not likely to happen.
As a country, we are in deep doo doo when it comes to debt, specifically Chinese owned debt. So for that reason I buy American whenever I can. I also repair more and replace less, and if it doesn't say it, I always ask where something is made before I buy it.

Twin_Cam wrote: And I agree that for cars it's impossible. I own a Saturn (headquartered formerly in Michigan, assembled in Tennessee) but all kinds of components in it come from all over the world. And Michigan and Tennessee don't make many replacement parts for it anymore. A lot of those you HAVE to buy from Mexico or China.

Actually, the S series Saturns had USA part content in the hi 90%'s.

I try to buy American when I can. However there are times when a USA product is not readily available, not cost effective (i.e. - can't afford it) or product is not marked.

Canadian products are the same as USA to me most of the time. I'll buy Japanese or European stuff before India, China, or Mexico when possible. And no Citgo gas!

I have seen more and more food products in the store with "made in China", that stuff goes right back on the shelf!!

Point about cars / origin / part content etc. This list is from last year, so I'm sure it has changed a bit, but it gives a good idea:

1. Dodge Avenger – 83%
2. Chrysler 200 sedan – 81%
3. Toyota Camry – 80%
4. Toyota Avalon – 80%
5. Honda Accord – 80%
6. Chevrolet Impala – 77%
7. Cadillac DTS – 76%
8. Buick Lucerne – 76%
9. Chevrolet Malibu – 75%
10. Chevrolet Corvette – 75%
11. Lincoln Town Car – 75%
12. Acura TL – 75%
13. Dodge Caliber – 73%
14. Chrysler 300 – 73%
15. Dodge Charger – 70%
16. Dodge Challenger – 70%
17. Honda Civic – 70%
18. Chevrolet Camaro – 66%
19. Toyota Matrix – 65%
20. Cadillac STS – 65%
21. Cadillac CTS – 65%
22. Ford Taurus – 65%
23. Ford Mustang – 65%

Source: http://wot.motortrend.com/top-cars-north-american-parts-content-67627.html