Buying American

petegossett wrote: A Chinese company is opening a new aluminum manufacturing plant in the middle of Indiana. They were one of my customers at my last job. Everyone working on the construction project, as well as all the staff hired for the plant, are American. It was very rare to see anyone oriental there(only happened twice). How does GRM feel toward something like that?

I see nothing wrong with that. It is not the owners of the company that make this country what it is.. but the workers who bust their backs to make a good wage so they can afford to buy the things they need and want.

It's like this.. if Bill Gates went on a spending spree... how many people would he actually help with that money.. as opposed to if his employees all went on a spending spree

jere wrote: I am against the working conditions in countries like China, little kids in the workforce, no union, 16+ hour days... and all to make some rich shiny happy people that don't give back richer. As far as sinking the US economy I wouldn't mind seeing a big change, if it tanks and everyone's way of life gets a little tougher so be it. We as average joes could use some more tightening of our belts, and the rich could stand to do a days work for a living. That is definitely what sending our manufacturing plants over seas is doing, the one that are in our country owned by other countries isn't an issue. The problem with the jobs going into poor countries is that it makes life WORSE for the people living there already in "poverty", as in their standard of living goes down. I can't afford many things new, and when I can that usually means foreign. But I try to support the "used" market first ie Craigslist and the like. Next I try and make my own DIY when I can . When I have to buy foreign I go with the cheapest that I can (HF or direct ship from China), to keep as much cash out of the super richs' pockets. The government should step in but they are making their money either way, it's up to us as consumers to change/fix it.

Uhhhhh.... I'm not real sure where to begin with that.

z31maniac wrote: We aren't too far off from the price of shipping + increasing wages meaning some jobs coming back to the states.

I've been reading about this happening more and more. Between labor & shipping costs and the ability to have better quality control due to simple proximity, many companies are apparently looking at the US again. How well this actually happens remains to be seen.

I try to buy American when I can, but often it's because of a desire for a certain level of quality. Chinese steel is starting to scare me.

chinese steel is the new soviet steel (any fiat owner can tell you about that)

The comment about ultimate profits is interesting to me. Cars don't offer much margin, so I wonder how much of the purchase price of a US built Accord stays here (assembly line workers, parts, transportation, power consumption of the plant, etc) compared to what is sent back to China from the profits. Interesting.

pinchvalve wrote: The comment about ultimate profits is interesting to me. Cars don't offer much margin, so I wonder how much of the purchase price of a US built Accord stays here (assembly line workers, parts, transportation, power consumption of the plant, etc) compared to what is sent back to China from the profits. Interesting.

Considering Honda is in Japan, I'd say very little goes to China.

This thread got me thinking about stuff in my house and where it was made, turns out most of it is Japan, South Korea and the Philippines - not China. Color me surprised, but I also don't buy cheap stuff.

I'm really tired of the Buy American discussion, it's sooo passe

ddavidv wrote:

jere wrote: I am against the working conditions in countries like China, little kids in the workforce, no union, 16+ hour days... and all to make some rich shiny happy people that don't give back richer. As far as sinking the US economy I wouldn't mind seeing a big change, if it tanks and everyone's way of life gets a little tougher so be it. We as average joes could use some more tightening of our belts, and the rich could stand to do a days work for a living. That is definitely what sending our manufacturing plants over seas is doing, the one that are in our country owned by other countries isn't an issue. The problem with the jobs going into poor countries is that it makes life WORSE for the people living there already in "poverty", as in their standard of living goes down. I can't afford many things new, and when I can that usually means foreign. But I try to support the "used" market first ie Craigslist and the like. Next I try and make my own DIY when I can . When I have to buy foreign I go with the cheapest that I can (HF or direct ship from China), to keep as much cash out of the super richs' pockets. The government should step in but they are making their money either way, it's up to us as consumers to change/fix it.

Wow, just wow. Your hatred of the rich is pretty apparent. So you always buy the cheapest you can find...that's the Wal-Mart mentality, which is a big reason why so much stuff does come from China, when you shop on price alone and with no regard for quality. I'd like for you to explain how the booming economy in China, India, etc has made the standard of living WORSE for those people. I'll have another cup of tea while I wait....

I completely understand what the "walmart mentality" has become. I have met two people that have sold to them and their business practices disgust me. One lady I talked to a small business owner (American) told me what they did for her company. How they almost put it out of business, even though they were buying her product. ( her story shares some parallels with this story man who said no to walmart )

As far as the booming economy making living conditions worse, there is a simple answer as well as a long complex one. The simple answer is that all the money from the industrial revolution those countries are having, is going to the rich owners not to the workers. The rich owners won't pay the workers enough money for the cost of living let alone supporting anyone else. Then they destroy the pre existing economy, which took less money for people to survive on. For a complex answer type "living wage" and "Nike" into Google and "shenzhen workers", start reading and following links. That will sum up how things work out for the majority of the people taking "our jobs" go over seas (companies not just Nike and Apple work this way)

Oh and I wouldn't say I hate the rich, but I am disgusted at the inequality and their practices. Especially while there are so many people worse off, it's something that we as whole should overcome .

Twin_Cam wrote: And I agree that for cars it's impossible. I own a Saturn (headquartered formerly in Michigan, assembled in Tennessee) but all kinds of components in it come from all over the world. And Michigan and Tennessee don't make many replacement parts for it anymore. A lot of those you HAVE to buy from Mexico or China.

Actually, alot of those aren't even available anymore......as in, all gone.....

mad_machine wrote: chinese steel is the new soviet steel (any fiat owner can tell you about that)

Where as current Chrysler steel is recycled japanese cars from 80-90's which was previously 60-70's chrysler cars.....

Ever wonder why they rust so fast....theres your not so likely and plausible answer.

Honestly, when it comes to buying "american", next to nothing is entirely american anymore. My advice, buy what works best with your hard earned money. When people bitch to me about buying american, my usual reply is "I earned my own money, so I'll spend it however I like.....wait, who do you work for?......Except you guys"

And to touch base with jere above who is obviously an Occupy follower, the problem with your treatment statement is the simple fact of, they aren't forced to work. They do the work because they either need to or want to. In those countries, a person could live like royalty for $50/day. Also, I doubt you would like my "Unions berkeleyed this country's workers"(for the most part, some mean well....most just want your money) rant.....as your head would quite possibly explode from amazement of the truth. So please, do yourself a favor, step away from the keyboard, take a deep breath, and pull your head out of your ass.

When you do that, then approach the keyboard to apologise.

Otherwise, STFU.

Yamaha: my new favorite poster on GRM.

I don't go out of my way to "buy american." However, I do buy locally whenever possible. I will pay a little bit more to support a local business as opposed to one on the other side of the country...

All of the money is going to the rich? You mean like the Robber Barons this country had in the 19th and 20th centuries, where the working conditions were so bad communism was a viable political party and unions started to really gather steam?

Do they have a private police force who will beat people until blood comes out of their ears the way Henry Ford did?

Say it isn't so!

In reply to yamaha:

Call me what you want but I don't follow the "Occupy" (I am honestly not even sure what their agenda is). I live in a city that has been lost it jobs and money long ago. The only jobs the average person can get here are customer service jobs. McDonalds, Walmart, BP, and so on, the big guys that squashed all of the mom and pop stores that used to be able support a family. The factories are long gone, and just left ghettos in their wake. The big guys pay us a living wage, just enough to pay the bills, living paycheck to paycheck. As far as choosing to work that's what we do, because there is no other way to get by. Here we live like royalty here compared what other people live like in those countries.

You might want to come up with a new number other than $50 a day because no one makes that kind of money in those other countries. If you look at the income in Shenzhen, last I saw it was $160 A MONTH. After a month of 12+hour work days (12 being the average full time work day), when there is a rush for a new Ipod work days go up 30+ hour days. http://www.kotaku.com.au/2010/06/foxconn-employee-dies-after-34-hour-shift/ That is common for someone to die from exhaustion there among a myriad of other life crippling problems. China is in it's industrial revolution right now, like the one the US had more that 100 years ago. Could they benefit from a real union you better believe it.

I know about what unions have become in the states and the damage the impact they have had. In the past they built our country. Nowadays I would agree that they do more harm than good. The system they worked in best has changed and they are still trying to hang on. But that is another topic no?

Brett_Murphy wrote: All of the money is going to the rich? You mean like the Robber Barons this country had in the 19th and 20th centuries, where the working conditions were so bad communism was a viable political party and unions started to really gather steam? Do they have a private police force who will beat people until blood comes out of their ears the way Henry Ford did? Say it isn't so!

Are you being sarcastic because I know China has that and worse.

People seem to be so busy hating the rich that they forget how much some of those folks do for charity.

I do work for some very well-off customers and the charitable work they do with considerable amounts from their own pockets is amazing.

These folks have bought and donated many acres of property and built facilities for a kids summer camp that sends kids for a trip that they wouldn't have a chance to get otherwise.

There are plenty of social programs, charities and outreach programs that get a lot of funding from caring individuals who have the ability to conribute a significant mount.

These folks write the cheque to build a whole hospital somewhere when most of us can only afford to stuff a few bucks in the Salvation Army kettle at Christmas.

They must be a bunch of douchebags huh?

The Lo mein I had for dinner was American made, buy a Chinese person that I heard speak Spanish. I'm dizzy now.

yamaha wrote:

mad_machine wrote: chinese steel is the new soviet steel (any fiat owner can tell you about that)

Where as current Chrysler steel is recycled japanese cars from 80-90's which was previously 60-70's chrysler cars..... Ever wonder why they rust so fast....theres your not so likely and plausible answer. Honestly, when it comes to buying "american", next to nothing is entirely american anymore. My advice, buy what works best with your hard earned money. When people bitch to me about buying american, my usual reply is "I earned my own money, so I'll spend it however I like.....wait, who do you work for?......Except you guys" And to touch base with jere above who is obviously an Occupy follower, the problem with your treatment statement is the simple fact of, they aren't forced to work. They do the work because they either need to or want to. In those countries, a person could live like royalty for $50/day. Also, I doubt you would like my "Unions berkeleyed this country's workers"(for the most part, some mean well....most just want your money) rant.....as your head would quite possibly explode from amazement of the truth. So please, do yourself a favor, step away from the keyboard, take a deep breath, and pull your head out of your ass. When you do that, then approach the keyboard to apologise. Otherwise, STFU.

Awesome

DrBoost wrote: Now, about cars. The line has been blurred for a long time. I look at it this way. If I were to buy a Honda made in Ohio I may be supporting the Japanese company, but I'm also supporting the economy kept alive by that plant. I'm helping to feed the workers on the line, the hi-lo drivers, the truck drivers, the owner of the diner down the road where they eat before/after work and so on. I think the Buy American argument is dead as far as cars go.

This IS "buying American".

Honda is employing workers. Assembly line and engineers. They're buying from local suppliers. Same with Toyota. They aren't sending CKDs to the US. In many cases, the cars sold in the North American market are specific to us, engineered for us, frequently with North American engineers. The money spent on a Corolla or a Passat or an Accord isn't whisked away to Japan never to be seen again. (Just as the money spent on, say, a Mondeo isn't whisked away to Detroit)

Blurred lines?

Global economy, they work for food. Thats how edsel envisioned it. If you build it they will kum.

Brett_Murphy wrote: All of the money is going to the rich? You mean like the Robber Barons this country had in the 19th and 20th centuries, where the working conditions were so bad communism was a viable political party and unions started to really gather steam? Do they have a private police force who will beat people until blood comes out of their ears the way Henry Ford did? Say it isn't so!

To be fair, today's employers wouldn't need that, because the workforce at large is too dumb/complacent/brainwashed to realize that they should be fighting for anything. Assuming that everything is great now just because working conditions aren't as bad they were at as the turn of the century is like assuming everything was great at the turn of the century just because workers weren't being bought and sold like cattle anymore.

Bottom line for me: We live in a global economy, period. Saying that you buy American is ridiculous.

Most of us work somewhere. Take a look at the products you sell, make, or otherwise use. Can you trace every single part, worker, laborer, assistant, consultant, or salesperson back to its origin?

Just today I was in Harbor Freight looking at their gas engines. They are exact copies of Honda engines, right down to the ribs in the plastic air cleaner cover. They aren't a Chinese ripoff, they are licensed to Chinese manufacturing corporations with Honda's permission. They are also offered on the free market at about 1/6 the price of a new Honda small engine.

So you bought an American car with a VIN that starts with "1". Who built it? Where did the parts come from? The "buy 'murican" argument fails the first time one of the assembly workers sends a paycheck home to his/her family in the homeland. Back in 1996, Honda held the distinction of keeping more US dollars in-country after opening their Ohio plant. If you dig deeper, 47% of their workers were temporary Japanese laborers brought over to start development. How much of their paychecks stayed here?

The economy is a massive, misunderstood, unrecognized entity that can't be quantified by a single character on a VIN, or a stamp on a tool that says "made in USA." Even Alan Greenspan knew that.

For me, I buy stuff... period. If it fits what I need as far as quality and price, I buy it. I don't care where its made, developed, manufactured, or marketed. Its all part of the global economy. If (for instance) Harbor Freight can offer me a tool with 60% the quality at 20% the cost, I'll buy it... especially if its an occasional use tool. Tools that I use and abuse constantly, I buy the best-rated; Rigid, Milwaukee, and Makita. Tools that I use occasionally like a sewer snake, a faucet wrench, or a drywall sander, I buy the cheapest E36 M3 I can find.

I don't give a berkeleying berkeley where it comes from, its all part of the global economy. If anyone thinks they are saving the world by buying "amurican" they need to seriously look at what they buy, who made it, where it comes from, and analyze every single step along the way.

You can buy a Japanese TV that puts more money into the US economy than an "American" car.

Look at it this way: Let's say you go to an American car dealership, buy a car that was built in America with American parts, and even has American electronics in it (good luck with that). When you signed the contract, did you pay attention to where the pen was made? Where was the ink made? Where did the pens get their logo? Where was the plastic made? Are the workers who made the pen American?

If you signed that contract without validating every single part, then (for all you know) you bought a vehicle that was only 10% American and your argument is invalid.

Knurled wrote:

DrBoost wrote: Now, about cars. The line has been blurred for a long time. I look at it this way. If I were to buy a Honda made in Ohio I may be supporting the Japanese company, but I'm also supporting the economy kept alive by that plant. I'm helping to feed the workers on the line, the hi-lo drivers, the truck drivers, the owner of the diner down the road where they eat before/after work and so on. I think the Buy American argument is dead as far as cars go.

This IS "buying American". Honda is employing workers. Assembly line and engineers. They're buying from local suppliers. Same with Toyota. They aren't sending CKDs to the US. In many cases, the cars sold in the North American market are specific to us, engineered for us, frequently with North American engineers. The money spent on a Corolla or a Passat or an Accord isn't whisked away to Japan never to be seen again. (Just as the money spent on, say, a Mondeo isn't whisked away to Detroit) Blurred lines?

I can attest that the parts on the US 'assembled' cars are NOT the same as the Japan made ones. They are distinctly different, because they come from different suppliers, and are generally not readily interchangeable. A few minutes on car-part looking for headlights, bumpers, etc for Hondas or Toyotas will quickly reveal this. Since the argument is mostly about JOBS, I think this is relevant to the argument. Where the profits wind up is not what most people are worried about; it's where the JOBS are created.

In reply to Trans_Maro:

There are some rich people out there who do good for good sake sometimes, but there is another side to that coin. I had a "rich guy" (not really that rich) in the back of my cab a month ago. He started telling me about why he donates money $15K a year to charity. It's because his accountant told him to. He could spend $15K at a charity or he could pay another $30K in taxes. Then when he went down to the place that he was giving the money to for a receipt, the person at the desk already knew what he was doing. It was tax season and others were doing the same as the guy in my cab. Maybe this isn't the case for everyone donating money but personally it makes me a little more skeptical of the idea.