Calling Audiophiles! Learn me Hi-Def Audio.

For Christmas/Birthday, my dad sent me a pretty nice audiophile quality Hi-Fi setup. Mostly vintage equipment. Playing records is strait forward, but I'm a bit confused about what to do regarding Hi-Def digital audio off a computer.

Looking for guidance on what I need to do to set things up to play Hi Def digital audio. Hardware, software, and file types/quality.

I'm not hardcore audiophile. I just like good music and have a pretty good ear. I'm fine tinkering and working, but do not enjoy that as ends in itself. Much in the same way that I wrench on cars because I enjoy driving fun cars.

Asking my dad for guidance on playing Hi Def audio leaves me with more questions than answers. He describes everything in technical terminology and jargon and/or assumes I have baseline understanding of concepts that I do not.

First, the computers. Hi Fi is set up in my basement. I'll be running things off a laptop. New laptop is PC. Also have an oldish Macbook with limited battery life.

File types. I know MP3 and AAC are lossy compression. I can definitely discern quality differences. Where I'm not sure if I benefit is going above CD quality. How noticeable is the difference from 16 bit to 24bit? What is the significance of 44.1kHz vs 96kHz?

Recommendations on sources for HD digital music? My dad says he uses HDTracks.com regularly. Any good HD Streaming services?

What about software for playing HD audio files? Recommended programs for PC? Mac? I downloaded AIMP onto my PC. My dad says he uses Roon, but that seems really expensive overkill to just use as a player.

What is the significance of using a USB DAC to play music vs just plugging a 3.5mm to Aux cable into the headphone jack? Do I need to do something special to make a DAC talk to the player software correctly? My dad was talking about different conversion rates between computers and DACs, but I didn't really understand what he was saying, why it mattered, or what I needed to do about it.

Or is my dad just making this all more confusing than it needs to be, and I won't notice a difference above CD quality? Just play 16bit ALAC or FLAC?

You just use the USB DAC as the output and all audio will go through it to the receiver (or tuner + amp, not clear from your write up).  It's a way to get a proper line-level output from the computer instead of an amplified line that has been stepped up inside a common and somewhat electrically noisy chassis.  This is especially important in a laptop which probably didn't get a lot of focus on audio output quality. 

I use an old Behringer U-Control UCA202 DAC.  You can pick these up for about $30 USD; I've had mine for over a decade and it works with with both OSX on Macs as well as Windows without needing to download any drivers or additional software.  I think it takes a noticeable increase in cost to get a noticeable increase in audio quality.  It's basic, reliable, and small. 

Going above CD quality if the source is a CD is just a waste of file size.  I have doubts about going beyond 16-bit audio files especially if the source is a CD. 

No idea on the rest, sorry. 

Definitely use a DAC.  The problem with using the headphone jack is that it is a (very modestly) amplified signal.  Any time you take a line-level signal (the original signal from the source) and pass it through an amplifier, you add noise, harmonic distortion, and other junk.  In the normal world, you only amplify it once, so oh well, at least it's done.  When you amplify it once and amplify it again, you compound the potential dirt.

Aside from that, don't worry about it.  You have vintage equipment... which likely sounds wonderful, but is, well, old.  Who knows the condition of some of the components.  Speaker surrounds, integrity of the cones, corrosion on crossover components?

I think what I'm trying to say is, don't overthink it.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Regarding the DAC, I've noticed that I can still adjust the volume control on the computer. With a line-out signal, I would have expected the volume to just be set. Am I missing something? Or is the DAC signal not amplified, and adjusting the volume down is just making it artificialy quieter?

I say "vintage" but not all of it is old. Much of it seems to be vintage *design* that is new or refurbished.

Equipment (going from computer or source to output):

• Rega Planar 3 turntable. From late 70's, but brand new bearing, and fairly certain a new stylus as well.
• Breeze Audio USB DAC
• Spectral DMC-10 preamp. Just refurbished.
• Transcendent Amp. (I dubbed it "The space heater" - thing has 22 tubes). Not sure how old. Seems in good condition.
• Stirling LS3/5a speakers. Appear to be brand new (came in box, plastic bagged, and foam surrounded; but I wouldn't have put it past my dad to have held onto the original packaging; if these *are* hand-me-down speakers, they're probably <10 years old.

Regarding 16bit vs. 24bit digital files - I know there's no advantage to trying to up-convert from a CD. Wondering how noticeable the difference is between a CD and downloading a digital file mastered natively at 24bit. And how different 24/44.1 and 24/96 are.

The DAC should not be amplified in general. It is just converting the digital signal to analog for the amp.

My experience has been in order of importance for sound quality speakers>amp>DAC>source (assuming that source is CD quality) (and don't fall for the cable bs). IMO that changes a bit for records. For records I tend to think speakers>record player>amp.

As far as digital files, I could never hear the difference beyond CD quality in blind tests. IIRC the differences fall beyond the realm of human hearing.

What are you using for phono preamp? Also tubes can have a big affect on the sound. A lot of people will play with different tubes to find a setup they really like.

The USB should take an unamplified signal directly from the sound card.  Think of the volume on your computer like a fader on a sound board.  More or less attenuates the signal as opposed to amplifying it up.

Do those Stirlings have the KEF drivers, or SEAS/Scanspeak?  That will vaguely narrow down the vintage to pre-2000 or post-2000.  I would have to look it up, but there were also subtle changes in cone material and surround material that will kind of narrow down the 70s/80s/90s.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

The USB should take an unamplified signal directly from the sound card.  Think of the volume on your computer like a fader on a sound board.  More or less attenuates the signal as opposed to amplifying it up.

Thanks. that makes sense. I don't know what my dad was on about regarding sample rate differences.

Do those Stirlings have the KEF drivers, or SEAS/Scanspeak?  That will vaguely narrow down the vintage to pre-2000 or post-2000.  I would have to look it up, but there were also subtle changes in cone material and surround material that will kind of narrow down the 70s/80s/90s.

Uhh... not sure how to tell. Box is still at home but I'm pretty sure they're Gen 3 or v3.

93EXCivic said:

As far as digital files, I could never hear the difference beyond CD quality in blind tests. IIRC the differences fall beyond the realm of human hearing.

Thanks. That's about what I suspected. There are a few songs I want CD quality to put on and enjoy. For the most part, the way I seem to be using the system is an experience to wind down and chill in the evening. I set it up in the basement so I can put on stuff my wife doesn't care for and not bother her. For that, I'm mostly enjoying listening on vinyl right now, primarily for the ritual and forcing myself to slow down and chill.

What are you using for phono preamp? Also tubes can have a big affect on the sound. A lot of people will play with different tubes to find a setup they really like.

The Spectral DMC-10. I gather it is vintage, but was just referbished by Spectral. I know people mess with tubes and tuning exactly which tube in what slot. I'm not there. It works and sounds real nice.

I'm envious.  I have just been re-vamping my home theater and I'm going back and forth between two speakers for front channel satellites.  The C-notes I used before are wickedly well-matched to the sub and sound like $2M, but they REALLY don't fit well on the redesigned mantel.  The Definitive technologies satellites look fantastic with the walnut veneer I put on them, but no matter how I try to EQ the setup, there is a dead spot in the mid-bass.  A little too high for the sub to get efficiently, and a little too low for the small satellites to stoop to get.

So, if you wouldn't mind just dropping those Stirlings back in the box and shipping them to Berkley St, that would be great.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

They're real nice.

I wouldn't mind supplementing this system with a sub. Not sure how I'd go about doing that though. The amp and preamp each only have the left and right channels out.

Okay. I *think* I answered my own question about how you wire in a sub. Just that all the forums and how-tos for anything related to nice hi-fi systems all assume familiarity with terms I don't fully grasp yet.

It sounds like... firstly that subs need their own amplifier (I know this) already. Secondly, that a good sub will generally have both an input AND an output. So you first send a signal to the sub, it takes the frequencies it will be playing, then it outputs to the L/R speakers to play them.

Also sounds like with a system like I have with a separate preamp and amp, this is even easier. Preamp sends line-out to sub. Sub splits that signal. Sends frequencies it wants to the amp for the sub which drives the sub. Sub has outputs, these send a line level signal with the remaining frequencies. This goes to the amplifier for the front facing speakers and drives them.

I was thinking the sub signal needed to be split off by the amp or preamp. But instead it is usually split off at the sub.

Do I have that right? If I actually had my hands on a sub, it would probably make more sense.

Assuming I understand, how do I find a good sub? Recommended brands/models? How much would something like that cost? Any good sources on used equipment?

That would work but only if you want to change the sub's volume independently of your mains (you don't want this).

Run speaker level signal from the main system amp to the sub amp's speaker level inputs.  Run main speakers from output from sub amp's to speakers like normal.  The sub's amp pulls input signal in this way.  While there is a slight increase in noise, that stuff will be mostly at higher frequencies, which will be knocked out by the sub's low-pass filter so that it never touches the sub's actual amplifier.  This audio signal input is also what signals the sub amp to turn on; it "just comes on" when the main amp is powered and there's no need for some other form of triggering or whatever.  

I've got one of these and I'm very happy with it for general use: Dayton Audio SUB-1200 12" sub but you can spend a lot more if you want.  $150 and shipped for free seems pretty reasonable to me.  Just need a bit more speaker wire to connect it all up.

In reply to pres589 (djronnebaum) :

In the setup I have, the volume control is on the preamp. The amp doesn't have any volume controls.

Interesting.  Should work the way you want, then, if you think it's worth going that way.  Technically better but not sure if it makes a practical difference.  Maybe someone else can chime in.  Speaker level inputs definately makes things easy.

The sub won't be quite as "clean" with the speaker level inputs, but it will work.  You're basically taking a pre-amp signal, sending it to an amp, then the sub strips off the amplification to make a signal which it re-amplifies.  This is like taking a car battery, hooking up an inverter to make 120v, then hooking a converter to that to make 12v again.  Unnecessary and big risk for dirtying the audio.

Your DMC-10 should have a plethora of signal-out options, does it not?  Always better to send a non-amplified signal to an external amp like a sub.  It will be a full-range signal, but as long as you choose a sub with a good crossover built in (most are fine), you'll be golden.  You'll want to have a sub that compliments the mains.  You'll need to find the frequency response of the Stirlings and pick a sub that has a frequency response that will work together.  If your mains start dropping off the dBs around 150 hz, you'll want a sub that makes decent noises up to about 100-120hz.  I also always try to find a sub that has a low range of around 20hz which is the average human's low end of what they can hear.

I would think that many subs should do the trick.  Your amp doesn't push a ton of wattage and your mains are pretty efficient.  A nice ported 8" or 10" powered sub should be a dandy match.  I have a Definitive Technologies 10" sub with a passive radiator and a 300w amp.  It is one of the best I've heard for flat response.  It is designed as more of a home theater sub, but it's a great audiophile sub... but it's not cheap.  Likely $400 these days.  But when you have a good crack of thunder in a movie and that puppy hits 18hz, you feel it in your chest.

The Dayton subs are a good way to add some punch down low, but in my opinion they're way too "loose."  Port volume is sized to try and get more bass at lower frequencies and I think they have trouble controlling the driver  which makes for not very flat response.  Yamaha makes a 10" 100w powered sub that sounds great but isn't like "whoa."  Good, flat response, nice punch.  They are in the $175 range.

I'd like to see measured distortion changing from speaker-level inputs to line-level inputs at the sub amp.  I'm honestly curious what the distortion difference would be (I know this is highly case by case but doing this with a few different sub amps would be illustrative) and if it's actually detectable through blind comparisons.

As for the Dayton home audio subs, I think that Curtis is probably correct, that they run to the "boomy" end of things.  My thoughts when I bought mine was that I don't normally listen to movies or other low-tone-heavy sources very loud, which should keep things from getting too out of control.  I assume that most folks shopping at the lower end of the cost spectrum kind of expect if not want that sort of thing; the whole 'setting the sub up so it's quite noticeable during a movie' sort of thing.  I keep the volume knob on mine set pretty low so it is much harder to pick out when the sub is really involved.

I think my best path would probably be to hunt for good used equipment on FB Market or Ebay.

Perusing there now, local pickup I see...
an RBH MS-8.1 that the owner is asking $150, and
an SVS PB12-NSD that the owner is asking $450 (but this seems rather high. I think it's reasonably worth $250-$350.)

Dunno if anyone has thoughts or input on those two. The RBH seems like a good deal on decent quality.

I know I'm not looking for thumping movie theatre bass. Just something to round out the lows.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Your DMC-10 should have a plethora of signal-out options, does it not?  Always better to send a non-amplified signal to an external amp like a sub.  It will be a full-range signal, but as long as you choose a sub with a good crossover built in (most are fine), you'll be golden.  You'll want to have a sub that compliments the mains.  You'll need to find the frequency response of the Stirlings and pick a sub that has a frequency response that will work together.  If your mains start dropping off the dBs around 150 hz, you'll want a sub that makes decent noises up to about 100-120hz.  I also always try to find a sub that has a low range of around 20hz which is the average human's low end of what they can hear.

Aha! Good point. The DMC-10 has an "AC Coupled" output and a "DC Coupled" output. Not sure what the difference is. My dad said it doesn't matter. So looks like I can just send whichever I'm not using on to a sub?

Spec sheet on the Stirlings lists frequency response as "75Hz to 18kHz +/-3dB (on HF axis @1m)". Not sure if that means they're actually reproducing accurately down to 75Hz or if they start to drop off before then.

For bass, I think I prefer crisp and precise over thumpy.

The used RBH MS-8.1 I saw listed uses 200w amp powering two 8" drivers. Specs online say it only gets down to 35Hz, though. That's better than 75, but I figured I want closer to 20.

Beer Baron said:

I think my best path would probably be to hunt for good used equipment on FB Market or Ebay.

Perusing there now, local pickup I see...
an RBH MS-8.1 that the owner is asking $150, and
an SVS PB12-NSD that the owner is asking $450 (but this seems rather high. I think it's reasonably worth $250-$350.)

Dunno if anyone has thoughts or input on those two. The RBH seems like a good deal on decent quality.

I know I'm not looking for thumping movie theatre bass. Just something to round out the lows.

The RBH has some serious cred, and the $150 price is fair if it hasn't been beaten to death.  The PB12 is also nice but I don't think I've heard it in person.

If I were looking for something solid to play with and didn't want to break the bank, I would hustle over to Powell and snag this one.  Talk them down to $125 and you have a LOT of sub with a lot of flexibility

Beer Baron said:

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

Your DMC-10 should have a plethora of signal-out options, does it not?  Always better to send a non-amplified signal to an external amp like a sub.  It will be a full-range signal, but as long as you choose a sub with a good crossover built in (most are fine), you'll be golden.  You'll want to have a sub that compliments the mains.  You'll need to find the frequency response of the Stirlings and pick a sub that has a frequency response that will work together.  If your mains start dropping off the dBs around 150 hz, you'll want a sub that makes decent noises up to about 100-120hz.  I also always try to find a sub that has a low range of around 20hz which is the average human's low end of what they can hear.

Aha! Good point. The DMC-10 has an "AC Coupled" output and a "DC Coupled" output. Not sure what the difference is. My dad said it doesn't matter. So looks like I can just send whichever I'm not using on to a sub?

Spec sheet on the Stirlings lists frequency response as "75Hz to 18kHz +/-3dB (on HF axis @1m)". Not sure if that means they're actually reproducing accurately down to 75Hz or if they start to drop off before then.

For bass, I think I prefer crisp and precise over thumpy.

The used RBH MS-8.1 I saw listed uses 200w amp powering two 8" drivers. Specs online say it only gets down to 35Hz, though. That's better than 75, but I figured I want closer to 20.

Agreed on the 35hz.  With so many subs out there that make clean bass to 20hz, no reason to miss out.  20hz to 35hz is nearly an octave.

The frequency range that is listed on a speaker is nearly always the +/- 3db.  Some cheaper manufacturers might make their crap speakers look better on paper by doing a +/- 5db.  If you look at a graph of the frequency response of a speaker, it obviously drops off as you get too high or too low.  The 75hz is the point at which the speaker responds with 3db less volume.  That is to say, when the line on the graph has dropped by 3db.  Some people refer to this as the "3db-down point."

For precise and not thumpy, I like to lean toward smaller drivers with better designed enclosures.  Think 8 or 10 inches instead of 12 or 15.  Having said that, there are plenty of precise and clean subs out there that have 15" drivers, just noting a trend.  Controlling a driver's inertia takes two things: big magnets and big wattage.  The smaller the driver, the less weight you're throwing around, so it typically takes less of both to keep control.  The enclosure shapes the way the air suspends the speaker and makes the best use of it's properties.

In general, sealed enclosures are the tightest, but almost no one makes a home audio sub that isn't ported in some way to take advantage of fine tuning frequencies.  As an extreme generalization, things tend to go from tight control/low efficiency/widest bandwidth up to loosest/efficient/narrowest bandwidth in the following progression:  sealed, passive radiator, ported, 2nd order bandpass, 3rd order, etc, up to a tapped horn which is likely the loosest, narrowest, and efficient-est type of enclosure you can get.

If you stick with sealed, passive radiator, or ported and 8-12" you should be in the sweet spot.

I wish I could say "buy this" but I've been a bit out of the loop for a couple years.

Regarding the AC coupled and DC coupled... It has to do with amplifier compatibility.  The "coupled" means it is referenced from the volume knob.  Not coupled just sends the signal regardless of the volume knob, like if you were sending it out to a mixing console for further tweaking.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

You don't think that's absurd overkill for what I'm thinking? Is that liable to be muddy?

I'm not looking to rattle the windows watching movies. I'm looking to round out the lows listening to Miles Davis and Led Zeppelin.

Edit: I can see why they might have had trouble selling that thing. Looks like a massive 110lbs piece of furniture. Good thing I've been working out!

Also looks like they have issues with the amp plate having gone bad by now and needing to be repaired or replaced.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

If you stick with sealed, passive radiator, or ported and 8-12" you should be in the sweet spot.

That is about what my Google-fu was telling me. I did find a nice looking SVS enclosed 12" unit. But it retails for $500. I realize that's a quite reasonable price for new audiophile equipment, but I'd still rather save a few bucks.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

This KEF 10" sub jumps out as a possibility. Appears to be a KEF Kube 10b? Which is a 10" sealed sub. Supposed to handle frequency 24Hz - 140Hz.

They look like they're having trouble selling. Might be able to talk them down to $200.

There's also this REL Q108 on EBay for $300.

If you can snag that KEF for $250, I think that's your huckleberry.