Anti-stance wrote: I think it is more of a culture that they get wrapped up in. I used to think the same way but with VWs. Everything else sucked, I hated Hondas, hated V8s, blah, blah, blah. I grew out of that stage of brand loyalty about 6 or 7 years ago. It was time to take the automotive blinders off and enjoy a variety of cars.
Ingroup / outgroup division lines are very important to some people. Many outgrow it, but many do not.
Duke wrote:Anti-stance wrote: I think it is more of a culture that they get wrapped up in. I used to think the same way but with VWs. Everything else sucked, I hated Hondas, hated V8s, blah, blah, blah. I grew out of that stage of brand loyalty about 6 or 7 years ago. It was time to take the automotive blinders off and enjoy a variety of cars.Ingroup / outgroup division lines are *very* important to some people. Many outgrow it, but many do not.
Well said.
In reply to mtn:
Buy an old sho, do suspension, and ask why he is afraid of losing to a 20 year old taurus. 
That has about a 70% success rate for me on mustang owners.
Luckily there are enough people who like enough different cars that they make plenty of options.
RoadRaceDart wrote: Now if we could only do something about the idiot spectators that think your car is a park bench or playground for their little darlings
Reminds me of a mirrorkhana event I was at where there was a HUGE dense crowd. The lineup for the cars was inside the crowd. You had to just drive into the crowd very slowly and basically nudge people out of the way.
And all over the car, little kids were like "OOOH TOUCH 
" on every part of it as I was driving through the crowd. It was actually pretty funny looking back at it.
Duke wrote: Ingroup / outgroup division lines are *very* important to some people. Many outgrow it, but many do not.
So true. Look around us for the proof. If you're not a Miata driving, cheap car owning autocross/LeMons racer, you're in an outgroup to a lot of people here. 
In reply to Chris_V:
Try driving a 95 Camry. 
The fact that a large majority of self proclaimed "car people" seem to fall in to this category has kind of ruined cars as a hobby for me. It's become next to impossible to meet like minded non-shiny happy car people to hang out with.
Two stories come to mind.
1) I run a series of local track days with timing. Sort of a five-lap autocross on a kart track. We had a Mustang drag racer show up one time and got his doors blown off. But he caught the bug, and now he's one of our most enthusiastic racers. He's also dragged some of his Mustang buddies along, including one who's running a GT500 with a whole pile of aftermarket goodies and a set of enormous Hoosiers. It's great fun to watch them go at it, and they're both quick. Just because they drag race a supercharged Mustang now doesn't mean they are beyond redemption!
2) Years ago, I drove a red Miata with silver stripes. So did a friend of mine in the same town. The cars looked enough alike that some of our friends would get them mixed up. He reported that people were always trying to race him. It never happened to me. Seems to me the big difference was the attitude of the driver being raced...
Mmadness wrote: He's probably one of those "autocross isn't real driving" type.
Ugh, this annoys me. I encounter lots of these people at work. Sometimes I think that in their head, they're already such great drivers, they don't even feel a need to prove it in competition. Like, why would they go to autocross, they'd just win. It wouldn't even be fun.
I just keep asking, hoping they'll come and get pansted by an EF Civic or NA Miata, etc.
The same reason autocrossers don't go to the drag strips. It's easy to drive in a straight line.
mtn wrote: We *kinda* have that guy at work. Standard Mustang GT, but he's put a ton of money into it. Probably putting down over 600 HP. Sounds like it is very fast, but it also sounds like he isn't chasing anything but big numbers; all his mods seem somewhat aimless. I don't get it. On the other hand, he is a very nice guy and while he doesn't understand Miata's, he doesn't rag me for them either. He is one guy I'd like to get out to an autocross, but he'll probably be afraid of breaking his car. I want to absolutely flog the E36 M3 out of his car because it sounds like it will be a ton of fun.
I work wih a guy who has not one but two Galant VR4's or whatever the hell the AWD version is called. One's pretty stock, the other is getting breathed on heavily in the HP department; we discuss mods (big turbo, injector sizing, compression ratios, porting, etc) all the time. He's after big HP which is cool, but I have to keep reminding him driveability is important: if you can't control the HP it's useless. He's a pretty cool guy, willing to discuss this stuff with an old fart (I guess he feels sorry for me ) but when it comes to a tossup between driveability and max numbers, the max numbers win every time.
I'd like to get both his cars either at an AX or on a road course and run them back to back, just to reinforce the point that dyno numbers aren't everything.
I think autox people put way to much emphasis on the quality of driving at the pointy end. I think if you can pax top 1/4 of a large event your a "good" driver. Beyond that your a "great" autoxer but some people who are truly gifted drivers skills don't translate to the special skill set that is autox. They may excel at drag racing cutting perfect lights with great 60' times or win spec races on a road course but that last second at autox is beyond them. The fastest autos drivers are no doubt great drivers but I don't think you have to out pax or even out raw time a superiorly prepared and driven lesser car to be a great driver.
nocones wrote: I think autox people put way to much emphasis on the quality of driving at the pointy end.
I'm not precisely sure what you're saying (in your entire post, I'm only quoting the part I'm actually responding too). I'm an autocrosser... so probably some bias... but I see a LOT of the opposite. So many autocrossers are totally convinced that almost everything except the driver is why they're slow. "Oh, that car has wider wheels!" "That car weighs less!"
Or maybe I've been spending too much time reading the OMG!!111!!1! STOCKCLASSAGEDDON!!!1!!1 threads at roadraceautox.
Curmudgeon wrote: I work wih a guy who has not one but two Galant VR4's or whatever the hell the AWD version is called. One's pretty stock, the other is getting breathed on heavily in the HP department; we discuss mods (big turbo, injector sizing, compression ratios, porting, etc) all the time. He's after big HP which is cool, but I have to keep reminding him driveability is important: if you can't control the HP it's useless. He's a pretty cool guy, willing to discuss this stuff with an old fart (I guess he feels sorry for me
But he already has a pretty stock one for driveability, shooting for big numbers with the other car is a reasonable goal. If he only had one car, I could see the concern, but when you have a pair of them...
In reply to Chris_V:
I was kinda guessing that Curmudgeon's point was that even if "Max Performance" is the goal, "Biggest Numbers" often isn't the best choice.
LainfordExpress wrote:Mmadness wrote: He's probably one of those "autocross isn't real driving" type.Ugh, this annoys me. I encounter lots of these people at work. Sometimes I think that in their head, they're already such great drivers, they don't even feel a need to prove it in competition. Like, why would they go to autocross, they'd just win. It wouldn't even be fun. I just keep asking, hoping they'll come and get pansted by an EF Civic or NA Miata, etc.
Often, when I talk to people who like to think they're car enthusiasts about autocross, they always inquire how fast you go. My reply: "usually around 40mph, never over 70." Their response: "I did 120 on the parkway this morning." Its usually best if I bite my toung, until it bleeds.
Rob_Mopar wrote: there are people who just want the attention the car gets them.
Exactly. It happens in everything. Cars, houses, food consumption, types of cups people drank out of in the 18th century, everything. Material goods say a lot about the people who use them. If that wasn't true, I'd be out of a job. Some people are into themselves and try to use their possessions to project their image of who they are a bit too loudly so that everybody can see. Not everyone uses the system right. Some people unwittingly project the image of unfathomable douchbaggery. Most people don't intentionally project much of anything, but who they are is still in the details.
Duke wrote:Anti-stance wrote: I think it is more of a culture that they get wrapped up in. I used to think the same way but with VWs. Everything else sucked, I hated Hondas, hated V8s, blah, blah, blah. I grew out of that stage of brand loyalty about 6 or 7 years ago. It was time to take the automotive blinders off and enjoy a variety of cars.Ingroup / outgroup division lines are *very* important to some people. Many outgrow it, but many do not.
if you wanna see a bitter rivalry, check out the smack talk between the owners of diesel trucks and Hybrids cars (the Prius, specifically)..
novaderrik wrote:Duke wrote:if you wanna see a bitter rivalry, check out the smack talk between the owners of diesel trucks and Hybrids cars (the Prius, specifically)..Anti-stance wrote: I think it is more of a culture that they get wrapped up in. I used to think the same way but with VWs. Everything else sucked, I hated Hondas, hated V8s, blah, blah, blah. I grew out of that stage of brand loyalty about 6 or 7 years ago. It was time to take the automotive blinders off and enjoy a variety of cars.Ingroup / outgroup division lines are *very* important to some people. Many outgrow it, but many do not.
Sure, I watched a lot of election coverage last year.
In reply to ShadowSix:
novaderrik wrote: if you wanna see a bitter rivalry, check out the smack talk between the owners of diesel trucks and Hybrids cars (the Prius, specifically)..
You should see the looks I get from both sides when I tell either of them that I want to diesel swap my truck for improved mileage.
It's hilarious.
novaderrik wrote:Duke wrote:if you wanna see a bitter rivalry, check out the smack talk between the owners of diesel trucks and Hybrids cars (the Prius, specifically)..Anti-stance wrote: I think it is more of a culture that they get wrapped up in. I used to think the same way but with VWs. Everything else sucked, I hated Hondas, hated V8s, blah, blah, blah. I grew out of that stage of brand loyalty about 6 or 7 years ago. It was time to take the automotive blinders off and enjoy a variety of cars.Ingroup / outgroup division lines are *very* important to some people. Many outgrow it, but many do not.
I thought Old jeeps vs New jeeps?
Keith Tanner wrote: 2) Years ago, I drove a red Miata with silver stripes. So did a friend of mine in the same town. The cars looked enough alike that some of our friends would get them mixed up. He reported that people were always trying to race him. It never happened to me. Seems to me the big difference was the attitude of the driver being raced...
Hey! Was that in Ottawa?
If it was, I know that "other" driver - and I've driven that Miata 
Appleseed wrote: The same reason autocrossers don't go to the drag strips. It's easy to drive in a straight line.
Yeah.....I used to quote that prattle. I've only been to the drags twice.....it cured me fast. I had someone come up to me after my first run and tell me I gave up 1/10th of a second because of staging to far forward.......it is a whole different world than autocross.
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