Car Payment Stupid Nation

And as mentioned upthread, cars are NOT more expensive than they used to be... in a lot of cases they are cheaper!

Sure the dollar number is higher and you can go nuts and spend $300k on a car, but you can also buy a sub-20k car that is actually a well engineered and decently screwed together machine, and not "whatever POS I can squeeze into". Partly because you're not dealing with three automakers, all of whom being rather uninterested in making the cheap cars decent, because if you want a decent car then get a bigger one.

Knurled wrote:

WOW Really Paul? wrote: In reply to volvoclearinghouse: The average age of them on the road has more to do with the fact that new cars are so expensive compared to average income....

How many times do you need the valves cut before 50k? How unusual is it for an engine to make it to 100k without needing a rebuild? Can you go more than 5,000mi without a tuneup? People got into the habit of buying a new car every three years because they were *used up* after three years. Other people bought a new car every year so they could have something worth selling/trading in.

There's truth to this. However because of this, it could also be said that an older car, provided it did not rust away or get into a massive collision, could be made to last pretty much indefinitely. Few, of course, actually practice this, although it's fairly common in other industries dealing with things like trains and other equipment.

Instead, we now have cars that will run a long time with fairly minimal maintenance, but eventually just become impossible to repair.

Another interesting take... 13,000 for about the cheapest new car now, In 1990 was 7,177 In 1970 was 2,133 In 1955 was 1,471...

joey48442 wrote: Another interesting take...

Last night a comercial rolled across the tv, finance a mattres for.......8 years. No, not a rent a center or aarons, place that actually sells mattresses.

volvoclearinghouse wrote: Instead, we now have cars that will run a long time with fairly minimal maintenance, but eventually just become impossible to repair.

Realistically, there are very few old cars that nominal maintenance would always be possible to repair. At some point the required work becomes close to the cost of a new car- between rust and major engine wear out.

Some cars are forced into possible repair just because of what they are, but those cars are few and far between. Nobody really is going to restore a clapped out Baracuda when there are good examples out there. And for sure, no sane person is going to restore a Pinto back to brand new condition.

Cars are so much easier to live with today- relative cost is about the same as always, but they have more power, get better mileage (check fleet average numbers- it keeps getting better), are cleaner to the environment (which makes driving more pleasant- I don't get headaches and smell bad), are more comfortable, quieter, have better Radios, handle light years better, are far less likely to break down, last longer, tell you what is wrong with them, require much less work to keep them going, etc.

And yet we discount that because the actual price is higher today than it was 10 years ago, and we think they are hard to work on.

Stock, head to head, I'm 99% sure that my Fiesta is a better car than my Alfa GTV is. And even though it gives up a little power, I'm pretty sure dead stock, my Fiesta would smoke the GTV head to head. That should say a lot.

Compare a 1973 911 RS to a 2015 Miata. A '73 $14k car vs a '16 $25k car.

Then again, GRM did that nice article pointing out that a modern minivan is faster than some classics that we all hold pretty high. Ignoring all of the other benefits that the modern minivan has over all old cars.

joey48442 wrote: Another interesting take... 13,000 for about the cheapest new car now, In 1990 was 7,177 In 1970 was 2,133 In 1955 was 1,471...

Is this inflation adjusted? If not, it's pretty meaningless.

I never thought I'd have a car payment but now I do. The piece of mind of putting my wife in a newer car is totally worth the car payment to me especially with the number of long drives she makes during the year.

z31maniac wrote:

joey48442 wrote: Another interesting take... 13,000 for about the cheapest new car now, In 1990 was 7,177 In 1970 was 2,133 In 1955 was 1,471...

Is this inflation adjusted? If not, it's pretty meaningless.

Those figures are exactly inflation adjusted for $13k today. I think the cheapest car in 1955 was about $1600.

I will say the smartest thing we did as a family was get a car payment. My wife was in school at the time and needed something safe, reliable, and efficient. 8 years and 130,000 miles later after only routine maintenance and she's still driving the thing.

That said, our payment was only like $200 a month. I cringe when a coworker says how much they're paying for their lease. And shudder when they talk about rolling the old loan's balance into the new.

alfadriver wrote: Stock, head to head, I'm 99% sure that my Fiesta is a better car than my Alfa GTV is. And even though it gives up a little power, I'm pretty sure dead stock, my Fiesta would smoke the GTV head to head. That should say a lot...Then again, GRM did that nice article pointing out that a modern minivan is faster than some classics that we all hold pretty high. Ignoring all of the other benefits that the modern minivan has over all old cars.

I'm actually surprised there aren't more accidents today than there are. When you consider the level of power and handling of an average new car, and the confidence it can give a driver, I'm surprised more people aren't running into each other. Then again, all of these things affect brakes and other avoidance tech too.

I'm a big fan of financing when I can get more for my money in the markey (big fan of not paying a penny over your mortgage payment) but one thing many people forget about when applying this to the new car world is the discount you get buying used. Sure a loan at .9% sounds great but when you factor in the depreciation hit, dealer fees and mark up of a new car....I would rather pay cash for a gently used car. You could also finance a used car but I've found that the rates aren't as good (I also haven't looked into it that much).

mattmacklind wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Stock, head to head, I'm 99% sure that my Fiesta is a better car than my Alfa GTV is. And even though it gives up a little power, I'm pretty sure dead stock, my Fiesta would smoke the GTV head to head. That should say a lot...Then again, GRM did that nice article pointing out that a modern minivan is faster than some classics that we all hold pretty high. Ignoring all of the other benefits that the modern minivan has over all old cars.

I'm actually surprised there aren't more accidents today than there are. When you consider the level of power and handling of an average new car, and the confidence it can give a driver, I'm surprised more people aren't running into each other. Then again, all of these things affect brakes and other avoidance tech too.

As far as I can tell, the extra power and performance is a marketing thing.

People buy for the numbers, but mostly drive in the real world. How many times have you seen BMW's slowly accelerate onto the freeway? I remember recently seeing a brand new high end powerful caddy- being driven under the speed limit.

It's just like why single commuters people buy 4 door sedans- because they might need it. Or why many get off road capable trucks.

alfadriver wrote:

volvoclearinghouse wrote: Instead, we now have cars that will run a long time with fairly minimal maintenance, but eventually just become impossible to repair.

Realistically, there are very few old cars that nominal maintenance would always be possible to repair. At some point the required work becomes close to the cost of a new car- between rust and major engine wear out. Some cars are forced into possible repair just because of what they are, but those cars are few and far between. Nobody really is going to restore a clapped out Baracuda when there are good examples out there. And for sure, no sane person is going to restore a Pinto back to brand new condition. Cars are so much easier to live with today- relative cost is about the same as always, but they have more power, get better mileage (check fleet average numbers- it keeps getting better), are cleaner to the environment (which makes driving more pleasant- I don't get headaches and smell bad), are more comfortable, quieter, have better Radios, handle light years better, are far less likely to break down, last longer, tell you what is wrong with them, require much less work to keep them going, etc. And yet we discount that because the actual price is higher today than it was 10 years ago, and we think they are hard to work on. Stock, head to head, I'm 99% sure that my Fiesta is a better car than my Alfa GTV is. And even though it gives up a little power, I'm pretty sure dead stock, my Fiesta would smoke the GTV head to head. That should say a lot. Compare a 1973 911 RS to a 2015 Miata. A '73 $14k car vs a '16 $25k car. Then again, GRM did that nice article pointing out that a modern minivan is faster than some classics that we all hold pretty high. Ignoring all of the other benefits that the modern minivan has over all old cars.

I'm pretty realistic about all of this. And I don't live in a bubble- I travel occasionally for work, and in my travels I have rented a good number of new cars. I should also say that the newest thing in our fleet now is my truck, a 2000, and when we sell that, the next newest will be my wife's 1991 Suburban.

My opinion, FWIW, is that I do not enjoy new cars. The steering is twitchy. The suspension feels every pothole. The brakes are like lightswitches. The stereos are hard to use, and the rest of the controls are distracting. Ergonomics don't seem to matter much- its about how much whiz-bang gimcrackery we can shove into as small a space as possible. Visibility is terrible- even dangerous. And most of the new cars out there are uglier than an inbred West Virginia cousin. The last rental car I rode in made me sick from the off-gassing smell of the interior, too.

Yes, car ownership has progressively gotten more "democratic". Cars run forever on no maintenance, use a reasonable amount of fuel for what they're doing, and coddle to your every want and need. You can practically suck on the tailpipe and come away with nothing more than a metallic taste in your mouth.

The problem, in my view, is that all of the problems in the first paragraph are completely detached from the benefits in the second. We could have nice riding, relaxing, comfortable cars that are easy to see out of and don't make me want to puke when I look at them, AND have all of the other benefits as well. But for the most part, we don't. And I really don't know why. So until a car comes along that checks all those boxes, I really don't feel compelled to write a check to a finance company for 1/3 of what my mortgage payment is, every month, for something that's going to lose 1/3 of its value the second I drive it on a public road, and make me nauseous when I see it sitting in my driveway.

And I'll keep driving my 1980 300TD. I paid less than one mortgage payment for the whole car, and I actually like driving it and looking at it.

alfadriver wrote:

mattmacklind wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Stock, head to head, I'm 99% sure that my Fiesta is a better car than my Alfa GTV is. And even though it gives up a little power, I'm pretty sure dead stock, my Fiesta would smoke the GTV head to head. That should say a lot...Then again, GRM did that nice article pointing out that a modern minivan is faster than some classics that we all hold pretty high. Ignoring all of the other benefits that the modern minivan has over all old cars.

I'm actually surprised there aren't more accidents today than there are. When you consider the level of power and handling of an average new car, and the confidence it can give a driver, I'm surprised more people aren't running into each other. Then again, all of these things affect brakes and other avoidance tech too.

As far as I can tell, the extra power and performance is a marketing thing. People buy for the numbers, but mostly drive in the real world. How many times have you seen BMW's slowly accelerate onto the freeway? I remember recently seeing a brand new high end powerful caddy- being driven under the speed limit. It's just like why single commuters people buy 4 door sedans- because they *might* need it. Or why many get off road capable trucks.

I'm the guy in the acceleration lane yelling at the car in front "you brag to your buddies about how much power it has, USE IT!"

Will modern cars become impossible to repair? No. Electronics aren't mysterious black boxes. Sure, they'll take different skills than learning how to cast a new trunk hinge for your MGB out of pot metal, but they're repairable. Electronics, generally speaking, are highly reliable. Now, you might have to replace an electronic component with a different one - say, an aftermarket ECU to replace a stock one if something's damaged the processor which is NLA - but I'm looking at overall function, the same way that my Mini runs an electronic ignition instead of points.

As for "I don't like new cars because they're not 15-year-old trucks" , fair enough. There were bad cars 15 years ago, 30 years ago, 50 years ago. We've forgotten them, but the new poorly designed cars are still in the showroom and in our faces. There are modern cars with good feeling brakes, with good steering and good ergonomics. But not all of them are that way.

Keith Tanner wrote: Will modern cars become impossible to repair? No. Electronics aren't mysterious black boxes. Sure, they'll take different skills than learning how to cast a new trunk hinge for your MGB out of pot metal, but they're repairable. Electronics, generally speaking, are highly reliable. Now, you might have to replace an electronic component with a different one - say, an aftermarket ECU to replace a stock one if something's damaged the processor which is NLA - but I'm looking at overall function, the same way that my Mini runs an electronic ignition instead of points.

Is there an aftermarket solution for BCMs yet?

Handling may be better than before, but people sure aren't using it. Slowing down from 70 to 60 to go around a curve on the highway, softshoeing it around a corner only to nail it one the wheel is straight, etc. I can't figure out what they think is about to happen that requires such slow movement.

Usually the people driving fast are the ones in 25 year old cars with Hoonigan stickers on them. I assume those cars are already paid for.

slowride wrote: Handling may be better than before, but people sure aren't using it. Slowing down from 70 to 60 to go around a curve on the highway, softshoeing it around a corner only to nail it one the wheel is straight, etc. I can't figure out what they think is about to happen that requires such slow movement. Usually the people driving fast are the ones in 25 year old cars with Hoonigan stickers on them. I assume those cars are already paid for.

Yeah, that would be, um, me. You'd be amazed what you can do with 80 horsepower. Yesterday a G8 and a new Camaro took off down the expressway when traffic cleared. For grins, I decided to give chase. And I caught them, around 85 mph. I bet they were surprised to see this tan station wagon keeping up with them.

But there are a lot of drivers out there who seem to think that curves must be negotiated at idle speed, merge lanes shouldn't be used for acceleration, and they shouldn't don't look any further in front of them than the car in front of them's back bumper. It's like we're all still driving Model Ts on dirt roads.

ProDarwin wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: Will modern cars become impossible to repair? No. Electronics aren't mysterious black boxes. Sure, they'll take different skills than learning how to cast a new trunk hinge for your MGB out of pot metal, but they're repairable. Electronics, generally speaking, are highly reliable. Now, you might have to replace an electronic component with a different one - say, an aftermarket ECU to replace a stock one if something's damaged the processor which is NLA - but I'm looking at overall function, the same way that my Mini runs an electronic ignition instead of points.

Is there an aftermarket solution for BCMs yet?

http://www.racepak.com/Components/Smartwire.php

I'm one of the people with a 6 year payment on a new car. I tried to avoid it by looking for something around $5-8k cash but looking at running 25k-50k a year the only cars with good mpgs had about 150k miles.

I was starting a new job and loosing my company car. I didn't want to tie up a bunch of cash or have a high monthly payment if the job didn't turn out long term. I am now about 20 months into the job and at 78,000 miles. The Cruze has been nearly flawless and I've been making double payments. I'm probably under water on it still but could pay it off now if I needed to.

Not my ideal scenario but I plan to keep the car to 300k+ or as long as it stays reliable. Since I need it for work and can't often use the excuse of car troubles for missing inspections I very well may opt for another new car at that point payment be damned.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse:

Well, in the long run- kind of hard to try to meet your opinion relative to the fact that over 15M cars are sold every year that you don't agree with.

Sorry, but being that I have a financial interest in it, I'll gladly sign with the people paying my salary.

volvoclearinghouse wrote: The problem, in my view, is that all of the problems in the first paragraph are completely detached from the benefits in the second. We could have nice riding, relaxing, comfortable cars that are easy to see out of and don't make me want to puke when I look at them, AND have all of the other benefits as well. But for the most part, we don't. And I really don't know why. So until a car comes along that checks all those boxes, I really don't feel compelled to write a check to a finance company for 1/3 of what my mortgage payment is, every month, for something that's going to lose 1/3 of its value the second I drive it on a public road, and make me nauseous when I see it sitting in my driveway.

Unfortunately, the "Why?" question is fairly easy to answer: because they don't sell. The average car buyer wants to be coddled in a bland and boring package, despite car manufacturers advertising about how "exciting" a particular car may be.

Exhibit A: The FRS/BRZ twins. Interesting cars by today's standards and reasonably well priced. They don't sell.

I think the main determining factor in whether people buy new or keep fixing old is not so much overall cost (it's been proven that a cheap car is STILL a cheap car) it's the volatility of the economy and job market.

It may not be quite as bad as it's portrayed or perceived, but overall I'd say people are less willing to shoulder 6 years of debt than they were in the past because they don't know if they'll have a job 6 years down the road. Or, in some cases 1 or 2 years, if you work for a certain yellow company that's local to me and has bulimic hiring practices.

That's one of the big stumbling blocks for me. Six years ago I worked for a company (Excel) that specialized in producing rock crushers for the mining and aggregate industry. I left there when that market was booming and started work at Komatsu. About a year later the U.S. mining industry tanked. In the spring of 2013 I was laid off and Excel followed Komatsu down the toilet, laying people off and trying to remain profitable. Hundreds of jobs were lost in both companies and they are still slowly hemorrhaging jobs and people. I think Excel may be in worse shape than Komatsu at this point.

Now big yellow is shedding jobs like mad and I have to wonder how many of those unfortunate souls had mortgages and car payments because they thought they had begun building their lifetime career.

I work with several guys who have $1,000+ mortgages, $500+ truck payments, and $500+ boat payments and it makes me cringe. Of course they rib me for being a tightwad. I'm sure the practical, informed approach to finances lies somewhere between me and them.

When I start pining away for a new(er), trouble free vehicle, I can't help but worry about the company I work for now going belly up.

MrChaos wrote:

ProDarwin wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: Will modern cars become impossible to repair? No. Electronics aren't mysterious black boxes. Sure, they'll take different skills than learning how to cast a new trunk hinge for your MGB out of pot metal, but they're repairable. Electronics, generally speaking, are highly reliable. Now, you might have to replace an electronic component with a different one - say, an aftermarket ECU to replace a stock one if something's damaged the processor which is NLA - but I'm looking at overall function, the same way that my Mini runs an electronic ignition instead of points.

Is there an aftermarket solution for BCMs yet?

http://www.racepak.com/Components/Smartwire.php

I should re-word that. Is there a solution that isn't $Texas? Like <$500, but preferably <$250

Figure out your inputs and outputs, and you can do it with a number of embeddable computers. I'm looking at a little CAN interface box right now that should let me hook anything to anything for $79. All I have to do is figure out the protocols. Like I said, it's a different set of skills.

What pushed me to a new car is reliability and parts. I DD an 87 4Runner with 450,000 on it. I blew a radiator in the winter months. 2 days to get a replacement and then the thrash to get it back together to be able to get to work.

After killing two 22REs (again in the winter months) I realized there aren't any cheap, low mile 22REs left. The last one was made 20 years ago.

So I bought my first new car at 37.