Career stuff

SVreX said:

One more thing...

Sadly in my field, I am seeing a huge deterioration in the quality and security of the related desk jobs.  Engineering and architecture jobs are dwindling fast, and the quality of the work we now get in the field is pathetic. We got far better drawings 20 years ago.  There are a lot of reasons for that. 

I am NOT seeing an deterioration in the need for quality tradesmen. In fact, I see a relation between the 2. As the professional roles deteriorate, the trades are expected to come up with field solutions that never used to be part of their job.  The future for skilled tradesmen is gigantic.

I wish that wasn’t true, but it is. 

The need for those professional design skills is different in other industries.

As someone who produces those drawings, I can understand where you're coming from. From my perspective in the pharma industry, the speed we are asked to design projects is outpacing the information we have to do the design. Mainly with regards to the specific process equipment involved, which is a bit of a chicken-egg situation:

A/E: we need equipment information

Vendor: we need a signed PO before we can design said equipment to give you anything.

A/E: can you maybe guess?

Vendor: Ok.

A/E: Thanks (then issues drawings)

Owner: Umm... we're going with a different vendor now than came in 12 cents cheaper.

New vendor: here's some preliminary design info.

A/E: this is totally different than the previous vendor and we have to completely re-engineer everything.

Owner: Why are we getting extras?

A/E: Why is my design staff quitting?

barefootskater said:

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

Man if I knew exactly what I wanted out of life/work this would be a way easier question. That is part of my problem, slight hesitation to really commit. Also I can be quite fickle, which keeps the car hobby interesting but is generally problematic otherwise. 

Anyway, if I had to sum up my desires/values for a real career I’d say that I’d rather go crazy as a result of repetitive labor than repetitive desk work. Maybe it is a phase but I have a sort of reverence for earning a living “by the sweat of his brow”. 

I threw ME out as an option because of my aptitude for math and fondness for machinery. I threw welding out because I enjoy the little bit that I do and I know good welders are in demand.

i want more than money the ability to take pride in a job well done. I don’t see myself being able to do that on a computer (and maybe I find some actual CAD fulfilling, never tried).

I also very much enjoy school (my 18 year old self would disagree) and would love to study just for the sake of learning, but as my situation requires I earn and support I think education for education’s sake will have to wait at least a few years. 

You are past the age where you can go back to school full time. Age and responsibilities. 

Whatever you do, make sure the company will pay for some college credits.  Maybe one or two nights a week. 

Companies like that, it shows a commitment to the future and develops a sense of obligation to the company.  In addition the company will be reluctant to let you go, figuring they have an investment in you.  

I know how hard it is. I got my first degree while flying in combat ( correspondence) and evenings between deployments when back in the states.  

My second degree I completed in only 2 years while working a full time+ job ( start at 4:00 am and finish 12-14 hours later)   

Yes it’s brutal but that why I recommended only one or two nights a week. 

Toyman01 said:

alfadriver said:

Why are so many people adverse to desk jobs?  I don't understand that.

SvRex put it very well. For me, to put it simply, I get bored. My brain would be off on tangents every hour or so. I'd end up fired for lack of production. 

I like building things. I like solving the problems and generating a physical, usable product. It could be just about anything. That's pretty much what I do on the weekends too. Build things. 

Even though I don't generate a "physical" product, I have to solve plenty of problems regarding explaining how our software and new features work (we do 2 large releases per year, and plenty of sustainability projects in between).

For example, I'm currently working on how to explain Custom Record Data as it relates to CMS Page Types, Custom Content Types, and Domain-level specifics, without blowing the customers mind. 

The pay is good, the benefits are beyond outstanding, I'm wearing sneakers, shorts, ball cap, and a Mastodon TShirt in the office. I work from home 2 days per week and generally have a lot of flexibility like this past Friday:

"Hey team, the weather is amazing outside so I'm signing off early to enjoy it." No PTO, no sick time used, we just have the kind of flexibility when you can get your job done. 

SVreX said:

One more thing...

Sadly in my field, I am seeing a huge deterioration in the quality and security of the related desk jobs.  Engineering and architecture jobs are dwindling fast, and the quality of the work we now get in the field is pathetic. We got far better drawings 20 years ago.  There are a lot of reasons for that. 

I am NOT seeing an deterioration in the need for quality tradesmen. In fact, I see a relation between the 2. As the professional roles deteriorate, the trades are expected to come up with field solutions that never used to be part of their job.  The future for skilled tradesmen is gigantic.

I wish that wasn’t true, but it is. 

The need for those professional design skills is different in other industries.

Well said!  My best friend has made a nice living the past 30 years working from home  as  a detail draftsman. He specializes in stairs.  For every job he accepts he passes on at least 2.  

The reason he can command such a premium is because his drawings actually work and fit.  

Toyman01 said:

alfadriver said:

Why are so many people adverse to desk jobs?  I don't understand that.

SvRex put it very well. For me, to put it simply, I get bored. My brain would be off on tangents every hour or so. I'd end up fired for lack of production. 

I like building things. I like solving the problems and generating a physical, usable product. It could be just about anything. That's pretty much what I do on the weekends too. Build things. 

That's fine- but it's more of "desk jobs are not for me" instead of all desk jobs suck.  

Especially since there ARE desk jobs that build stuff.  

Ian F said:

SVreX said:

One more thing...

Sadly in my field, I am seeing a huge deterioration in the quality and security of the related desk jobs.  Engineering and architecture jobs are dwindling fast, and the quality of the work we now get in the field is pathetic. We got far better drawings 20 years ago.  There are a lot of reasons for that. 

I am NOT seeing an deterioration in the need for quality tradesmen. In fact, I see a relation between the 2. As the professional roles deteriorate, the trades are expected to come up with field solutions that never used to be part of their job.  The future for skilled tradesmen is gigantic.

I wish that wasn’t true, but it is. 

The need for those professional design skills is different in other industries.

As someone who produces those drawings, I can understand where you're coming from. From my perspective in the pharma industry, the speed we are asked to design projects is outpacing the information we have to do the design. Mainly with regards to the specific process equipment involved, which is a bit of a chicken-egg situation:

A/E: we need equipment information

Vendor: we need a signed PO before we can design said equipment to give you anything.

A/E: can you maybe guess?

Vendor: Ok.

A/E: Thanks (then issues drawings)

Owner: Umm... we're going with a different vendor now than came in 12 cents cheaper.

New vendor: here's some preliminary design info.

A/E: this is totally different than the previous vendor and we have to completely re-engineer everything.

Owner: Why are we getting extras?

A/E: Why is my design staff quitting?

Like I said, there are lots of reasons. 

Bottom line is the needs at the jobsite have increased exponentially, and the quality of the drawings is a fraction of what it used to be when they were hand drawn. So, we are left field engineering stuff that absolutely should not be our job (like my current job- making up structural engineering stuff in the field for a project that is exposed to 140 mph wind loads in a seismic zone)  

The biggest frustration for me is how poorly integrated the drawings are from each of the design professionals.  With all the tools available, why should every single drawing we ever receive be a fresh start that may or may not have imported the correct information from other design professionals? Why not just add another layer to the existing drawings, and make all updates and changes accessible from the field electronically?

You are right.  Owners WILL change their minds, and act stupid and have unreasonable expectations.  Since we know that, why not use the tools we have easily at our disposal to deal with the problem, instead of pointing fingers?

Owners want direct access, design build relationships, and the ability to change their mind on the fly until the completion of the project.  In the field, we need the ability to get the job done.  It’s not that hard with today’s technology.

barefootskater said:

I threw ME out as an option because of my aptitude for math and fondness for machinery. I threw welding out because I enjoy the little bit that I do and I know good welders are in demand.

i want more than money the ability to take pride in a job well done. I don’t see myself being able to do that on a computer (and maybe I find some actual CAD fulfilling, never tried).

See my post about machining above, I can command robots to cut metal for me :)

In reply to WonkoTheSane :

Machinist is on the short list for sure. If I had it all to do again that is what I would have done right out of high school. Hindsight...

Alot of people think engineer and think design desk job..  People should go to a manufacturing plant.  Lots of on the floor work...  Lots of test work in test cells..  I don't get it.

Fueled by Caffeine said:

Alot of people think engineer and think design desk job..  People should go to a manufacturing plant.  Lots of on the floor work...  Lots of test work in test cells..  I don't get it.

Because it's easier to assume people know what they are talking about than to admit they don't. 

Even as a Technical Writer, when I worked in manufacturing plants (because of the car background) I had plenty of opportunities to help build test units, help test units, run longevitiy tests, etc. 

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

Part of why I started the thread. I live in a small town and assume I have small town misconceptions. If I am wrong in my assumptions I'd like to know and get a bigger picture. If a BS ME is the way to go I'm ok with that but It is a 7-8 year proposition at this point. The end result may be preferable but on the other hand I'd be looking at most of a decade before I could pass where I am now income-wise, after considering the cost of school. Local U is pretty cheap, state school, and has a supposedly decent ME program, but still figure probably 5-6k/year for the next 7-8 years, for an average starting salary that is only roughly 10k more than I make now.

In reply to barefootskater :

OK. We've got a start.  I'm nearly 20 years into my career and I still don't know what I want to do when I grow up.  I just keep following my curiosity and it seems to have worked out so far.

So, When I mentor people I tell them to define experiences that either you enjoy at work or in private life or what experiences do you want to have or are curious about..  

Here are some questions to make you think:

1. Do you want to lead people?

2. Do you like to be lead?

3. Independant or team based work?

4. How do you like to solve problems.. how creative do you want to be?

5. Interaction with customers? Solving their problems?

6. How analytical do you want to be?

7.   Do you like getting the project off the ground... Do you like finishing it?  

8. Any type of media ( computers, physical etc) that make you happy?

9.  Are you looking for a job or a career..  Is progression and growth important to you..  

Don't hae to answer them all, but start thinking about it..

Edit:  one more....

Are there any people you see or know in your current life that do something that interests you?  Could be someone on this board...  If so.. Reach out to them and ask them about their journey..  It's super powerful.. SUPER....  People like to talk about themselves and you learn a lot that way.

Fueled by Caffeine said:

Alot of people think engineer and think design desk job..  People should go to a manufacturing plant.  Lots of on the floor work...  Lots of test work in test cells..  I don't get it.

Some of us get to play with cars for a living.  Some a lot of driving cars, some driving dynos, some driving CAD machines.  

Yes, I do have a desk, and I do have a computer to work on.  Still...

Some other things to consider as you look around.  So much talk in here about engineering and the trades, how about some other ideas?

The population is aging and dying in a record way.  Something to do with the death process?  Funeral director/embalmer is the sort of job that will ALWAYS be in demand.  Health care and health care ancillary staff?  Again, more people means more older and frailer people.  Not everyone needs to be a nurse and there are a lot of jobs around taking care of others.  Law enforcement/border patrol?  Lots of demand there and if you're reasonably smart you can do 10-15 years on the streets and graduate to a desk when you feel the desire to slow down a bit around 45-50 (and trust me, you will).  

Take a look at the government recruiting website (ends in .gov) and see if anything interests you.  Not just what you think you're qualified for but what sounds like a cool job.  I bet you'll discover that there are far more jobs than you'd even thought existed.

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

1. I'd rather lead than supervise. Very much hands-on, very little being the resident shiny happy person barking orders.

2. I do like to lead, but only once I feel like I actually know more than those being lead.

3. Depends on the team, but preferably team.

4. As simply as possible. I like being creative but simplicity is usually much more elegant. And efficient.

5. Usually dislike customers, but that mostly comes from sales experience... So I'll have to think on it a bit more.

6. Pretty analytical by nature. Sometimes I want to just get in and get out but usually I prefer to think.

7. This is a car forum. Do projects ever end?  I'll have to think more.

8. Generally dislike computers, I can navigate and use them, but not my forte.

9. Career. 13 years working at jobs. Looking for something long term.

If you don't know what job you want, maybe you could answer what lifestyle you want and work backwards? I have a great job, but my work is 100% travel and that changes the sort of lifestyle I end up with.

I would also say don't be afraid of trying things. Taking a job is not the same as committing to that job forever. If you're not headed towards where you want to be in your current job, send out some resumes and see if there's a better option out there even before you go to school. Also, there's a time and place for school and certifications, but try to talk to people who are already where you want to end up about whether they're necessary. Some welders depend on their certs, but others are totally successful after teaching themselves. 

From where I sit, plumbing seems like a great option. Even if you own the business, you can make sure you have someone around to keep you accountable. I would imagine that would give you easy access to a shop which would be a great place to learn to weld or work on whatever you wanted to after hours.

I will say that I think Frenchy is straight up wrong about physical trades being inherently unsustainable for the body. There are managers/supervisors/superintendents in virtually all trades, as well as opportunities to teach and start your own business. I'm in an extremely physical line of work and I'm in much better shape than my younger brother who has a desk job.

barefootskater said:

4. As simply as possible. I like being creative but simplicity is usually much more elegant. And efficient.

Sorry, pet peeve of mine... Simplicity and creativity are not mutually exclusive.  Often the most creative solution is one of the most simple.

In reply to barefootskater :

How much are you willing to invest in a better life....  Whats the tradeoffs/sacrifice you are willing to make?  Don't give a quick answer.  really think on what you want and how much you're willing to invest.  Better an honest answer than an overzealous one... 

In reply to SVreX :

In my opinion, the technology that was developed to increase coordination was sold as a way to save time. So instead of improved coordination, you get reduced design times.  Nobody builds physical models anymore. It's all done virtually. Which sounds great in theory but I have yet to see it work in practice. Why? Simply because we on the design side are not given the time and manpower required to do it. I hear stories from older coworkers of working on projects with a dozen other electrical engineers, designers and drafters. Now it is usually just one or two. Three on rare occasions.  On most projects I work on, I am the only electrical person on the project, so I have to do it all: client meetings, engineer, design, CAD, CA, submittal review, etc.  Usually on overlapping projects.  This is all I've known for my entire career (23 years now), so I'm used to it and it doesn't bother me, but it can burn me out and no matter how much I try to catch them, mistakes get through. 

We couldn't put more people on projects even if we had them. The design budgets don't allow it. 

The result is what ends up in front of you.  

If you have any ideas, I'd love to hear them. As long as they don't cost any more money.  Everything I've tried has failed.

In reply to Ian F :

I understand the limitations. 

I will PM you rather than derail this thread further. 

barefootskater said:

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

Part of why I started the thread. I live in a small town and assume I have small town misconceptions. If I am wrong in my assumptions I'd like to know and get a bigger picture. If a BS ME is the way to go I'm ok with that but It is a 7-8 year proposition at this point. The end result may be preferable but on the other hand I'd be looking at most of a decade before I could pass where I am now income-wise, after considering the cost of school. Local U is pretty cheap, state school, and has a supposedly decent ME program, but still figure probably 5-6k/year for the next 7-8 years, for an average starting salary that is only roughly 10k more than I make now.

What’s your income target?

There are definitely careers you could walk into NOW with almost no training that would not take a decade to amount to a good income. 

Parts selling... Do you make more than $50K? (I am clueless)

I think you are wise to realize the limitations you now have with a family, etc. But most of us are shooting in the dark here not knowing what you need to make, or what you need to start at. 

barefootskater said:

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

Man if I knew exactly what I wanted out of life/work this would be a way easier question.

Pick something and jump in. When you start training, you'll know pretty quickly if you can see yourself doing that for years at a time.

Keep in mind that with something like welding (as an example) you can work on off-shore oil rigs, work at refineries, work in fab shops and on construction sites. Every one of those locations is going to have challenges and rewards. Like diving? Work off-shore! Retire in 15 years after working 6 months a year! Terrified of the water but love heights? Work on relay towers or in construction.

And so on. The important thing is to get the base skill nailed down as much as you can, and then travel around (hence, journeyman in the trades) until you find your niche.

ProDarwin said:

barefootskater said:

4. As simply as possible. I like being creative but simplicity is usually much more elegant. And efficient.

Sorry, pet peeve of mine... Simplicity and creativity are not mutually exclusive.  Often the most creative solution is one of the most simple.

Agreed. I've just known too many folks who needlessly overcomplicate things because it looks better or that's how they like it done. Creativity should be applauded where it doesn't complicate things.

SVreX said:

barefootskater said:

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

Part of why I started the thread. I live in a small town and assume I have small town misconceptions. If I am wrong in my assumptions I'd like to know and get a bigger picture. If a BS ME is the way to go I'm ok with that but It is a 7-8 year proposition at this point. The end result may be preferable but on the other hand I'd be looking at most of a decade before I could pass where I am now income-wise, after considering the cost of school. Local U is pretty cheap, state school, and has a supposedly decent ME program, but still figure probably 5-6k/year for the next 7-8 years, for an average starting salary that is only roughly 10k more than I make now.

What’s your income target?

There are definitely careers you could walk into NOW with almost no training that would not take a decade to amount to a good income. 

Parts selling... Do you make more than $50K? (I am clueless)

I think you are wise to realize the limitations you now have with a family, etc. But most of us are shooting in the dark here not knowing what you need to make, or what you need to start at. 

I work on commission. Currently projecting to earn around your guess before taxes. Which around here means I could afford a trailer to park in the worst neighborhood and not be able to save much towards emergencies or retirement.

I can break the math down to pretty simple numbers: Figure housing costs drop a bit at some point in the not too distant future and I could buy a place (pretty high on the life goal sheet) with a 30yr at maybe $1000/month while keeping my current level of disposable income and say another $500-1000/month to put away (invest, bury, whatever) I'd be pretty set. I love where I live but things change and life happens. So take that $50k and add 20, plus CoL increases over the next 40 years and I'd be more than content, given it didn't require 60 hour weeks every week. Not afraid of work, but I have a family I'd like to be part of.

I could be happy with less if the job was stellar.

edit: TL;DR:

$70k/yr is enough, more is better but fulfillment is a bigger priority. 

In reply to barefootskater :

Sounds like you are saying you need $70K now, not a decade from now.