wbjones wrote:nocones wrote: I'm going to start putting gas in my car from the tanks the local high school uses to refill the lawnmowers they use to mow the soccer fields. Ill only be taking a few miles of gas its fine. Not theft and I shouldn't be prosecuted.if you really think that would be the same thing … shakes head in disbelief …
Please do explain how it's NOT the same thing…? 
wbjones wrote:nocones wrote: I'm going to start putting gas in my car from the tanks the local high school uses to refill the lawnmowers they use to mow the soccer fields. Ill only be taking a few miles of gas its fine. Not theft and I shouldn't be prosecuted.if you really think that would be the same thing … shakes head in disbelief …
What the hell is the difference?
bearmtnmartin wrote:wbjones wrote:What the hell is the difference?nocones wrote: I'm going to start putting gas in my car from the tanks the local high school uses to refill the lawnmowers they use to mow the soccer fields. Ill only be taking a few miles of gas its fine. Not theft and I shouldn't be prosecuted.if you really think that would be the same thing … shakes head in disbelief …
The difference is in the obviousness of the acceptance of use. It is blatantly obvious that taking gas is wrong. So much so that it isn't necessary to explain. An outdoor plug is in a grey area right now where some people think it is OK and some do not. A good comparison is water at the school. A water fountain is pretty obviously a free to everyone disbursement tool. A water hose can take more water and is less obviously for everyone so that's kind of grey. Tapping into the plumbing is obviously wrong.
EV guys are sometimes fairly self righteous about there activities so some of them take liberties. They also know that the cost to the host is very very little, usually measured in cents. Add to that the fact that publicly accessible outlets are becoming acceptable places to plug in other electric devices it is understandable how some people feel it is OK to plug in an EV.
Honest question, how much does plugging your ev into a standard outlet for 30 min even an hour get you? Like 1/10th of a full charge? 1/20th? I know nothing about these and was just wondering if it is even worth the hassle.
BTW-all indicators point to the EV owner being an ASS. He was taking tennis lessons from someone not associated with the school using school courts. He had be in conflict with the school before because he felt felt his right to use those courts usurped school activities. He had been warned to stop plugging in and didn't. Sounds like an opportunistic user of semi public facilities who believes the generosity inherent to the design of the system entitles him to privileges.
wbjones wrote:nocones wrote: I'm going to start putting gas in my car from the tanks the local high school uses to refill the lawnmowers they use to mow the soccer fields. Ill only be taking a few miles of gas its fine. Not theft and I shouldn't be prosecuted.if you really think that would be the same thing … shakes head in disbelief …
Its 100% the exact same thing. The school pays per KW-HR for the electricity consumed by the outlet (just like they pay per gallon for gas to now the lawn). Until Mr petty theif came along that outlet was happily distributing 0 KW-hr of power just like a jug of gas in the schools implement shed is not being consumed. Mr leaf plunged his dongle into the outlet consuming 12amps @ 120v for 20 min or .48kw-hr or according to Nissan 1.32 miles of "fuel". That would be the same as me taking 6.75 oz of gas for my WRX.
I don't care what the retail value of that "fuel" is. He stole fuel for his personal vehicle from the school. If it was a public school he stole from the taxpayers. I am sick to death of theft from businesses/governments being OK since its small amounts. Does the police have something better to do. Probably. But this guy is a theif either way.
I don't think that the grey area is that grey here due to intended use. Just like the water fountain example you are using the water from the fountain for an obviously acknowledged/intended use. Even if we assume an outdooe outket is provided by the school for visitors and students to use for accessory use I would not assume that use includes refueling my vehicle. Electric cars are using the juice for something other than its intended use. I'm confident that at some point some jackwagon senator will get a bill passed allowing the use of any non secured public outlet for free for fuelling of electric cars "for the environment". And then my rage will grow.
nocones wrote: I don't think that the grey area is that grey here due to intended use. Just like the water fountain example you are using the water from the fountain for an obviously acknowledged/intended use. Even if we assume an outdooe outket is provided by the school for visitors and students to use for accessory use I would not assume that use includes refueling my vehicle. Electric cars are using the juice for something other than its intended use.
I wouldn't do it because for me it falls out of the grey range into clearly wrong. Really though I am not very cause oriented so I don't consider my thoughts representative of the majority. No matter what for this guy it was made clear to him that it wasn't acceptable use and he continued anyway and paid the price.
In reply to nocones:
I do think lots of future business outdoor outlet location decisions will require lots of thought.
nepa03focus wrote: Honest question, how much does plugging your ev into a standard outlet for 30 min even an hour get you? Like 1/10th of a full charge? 1/20th? I know nothing about these and was just wondering if it is even worth the hassle.
According to Nissan 1 HR at a 12Amp/120V socket (1.4Kw-Hr or ~$0.14 @ Missouri's average KW-Hr rate) will result in 4 miles of charge. This would be the same as stealing a 20oz bottle of gas (~ $0.54 @ 3.50/gal) for use in your 25mpg car.
Also of concern is that 12amps is a fairly good draw to put on a 15-20amp circuit running god knows what potential critical system at the facility your taking. If the average load on that circuit is 8 amps and it's a 20amp circuit the likely hood of you tripping the breaker and causing it to need to be reset is fairly high.
nocones wrote: It was on public school property. My understanding is all vehicles on school property may be searched at any time.
Cool, I'll let the police know your car is available for searching next time you pick up your kids from school. 
In reply to bgkast:
In the state of Illinois school officials/police have the right to search vehicles on school grounds if their is suspicion of illegal activity. My understanding when I went through school was that the yardstick for "suspicion" was nearly non existent. A situation such as this (Police being summoned to an unknown vehicle parked on school grounds, what sounds like in a loading zone) would definatly resulted in a search to ID the owner at a minimum at my school. I assumed that most/all states had similar laws about personal vehicle rights on school grounds. I do not know the laws in all 50 states, nor am I 100% sure that this law is not still in effect in Illinois. I assume from your response that this is not the case in your state/location?
I know that in most states the kids get no expectation of privacy in schools..
mad_machine wrote: I would like to see "meters" where you could plug in a couple of quarters to charge your EV. Say, 25 cents per 15 minutes. People would pay it.. and it would only cost the town about .1 cent in electricity
too bad the city would probably lose money on them while the private contractor that operates the meters makes a hefty profit- kind of like stop light cameras...
one of my uncles bought a Leaf about a year ago and bragged about how much money he was going to save by getting his car charged for free by the city of Minneapolis while he was at work. i asked if he had to pay extra for the privilege of parking in the parking spots with the free EV charging stations, and he said that there was no extra fee for it... he got all uppity when i pointed out that he was leeching off the taxpayers of the city (and state, also maybe the feds, depending on how the funding for those stations was acquired). he also got kind of ticked off when i pointed out that most of the electrons that were going into his car originated in a coal fired power plant...
he left facebook this past spring- probably because he got sick of everyone giving him crap for all of his bleeding heart ramblings..
nocones wrote: Even if we assume an outdoor outlet is provided by the school for visitors and students to use for accessory use I would not assume that use includes refueling my vehicle. Electric cars are using the juice for something other than its intended use.
What exactly is the intended use of the electricity, if not to power electrical devices? Just as water fountains are to hydrate people, some thirstier than others. Few schools are new enough that their outlets were actually installed with the intent of being to be used for charging non school owned iPods, iPhones, or iPads any more than they were intended for non school owned iCars. If the argument on stealing is about the principle and not the value or the nature of the theft, then it's just as much stealing if it's 10W for a personal handheld device or 75W for a laptop, as it is 1.44KW for a personal car.
I can't imagine any school being built, since the advent of building codes, where the outdoor outlets would be on a shared low amperage circuit with any critical systems and services within the school. That's stretching the argument very thin.
It's odd that people can be upset with the theft, but not more so with the overreaching of law enforcement. With all of the factors in this case, and especially with the guy not living in the city or having any tie/affiliation with the school at all, it certainly does sound like it was intentional theft more than just a misunderstanding...But the real issue at hand here is the home arrest and jailing over it. I would be just as upset with the premise of somebody being arrested at home and taken to jail over 20oz of gasoline theft as I am 1.4KW of electrical theft. It's completely beyond comprehension, and is the same to me as if you were arrested at home and thrown in jail overnight, a few days after getting caught doing 5mph over the posted speed limit, since speeding is speeding regardless of if it's 5mph or 50mph over. By any stretch of the imagination the equivalent of a 5mph over speeding ticket, since the Leaf owner apparently wasn't content to just get a warning, should have been more than enough to resolve the problem fully and reasonably.
In reply to Driven5:
Per Georgia Statutes: When a theft offense involves property valued at $500 or less, the crime is punishable as a misdemeanor in Georgia. (§ 16-8-12.) Punishment for a misdemeanor includes a fine of no more than $1,000 and a sentence of imprisonment of no more than 12 months.
Apparently the Officer was able to get a warrant issued for his arrest based on theft by taking of property valued at $500 or less. At that point his arrest and confinment until posting bail and release before he stands trial is simply an academic part of our judicial process. I would guess chances are VERY High charges will be dropped or reduced at trial.
Should the officers have pursued it to that point? I don't know. I don't know what leway they have to choose not to follow through on a reported crime (apparently the officer was called to the scene and wrote a report).
It's a little different than your speeding analogy. In Illinois and states around Illinois you cannot be arrested for speeding until you are speeding enough to be committing a "reckless driving" offense. So I would be very upset if I was arrested for doing 5mph over the limit here as there is no law supporting arresting someone for that offense. Perhaps this is different in Washington? Are all speeding offenses arrestable offenses? I believe if you refuse the ticket or refuse to post bond for the ticket you can be arrested here but that is the case with any traffic violation. In this case he (In the opinion of the judge issuing the Warrant) comitted misdemmenor theft by taking which is an arrestable offense in Georgia.
The Leaf guy was just embarrassed that he was caught jacking on.
In reply to nocones:
I don't doubt that the Police were within the letter of the law, and I don't know of anywhere that you can be arrested simply for 5mph over...But neither of which makes it right to do so, nor alters the hypothetical comparison, in my opinion. This is every bit as much of a problem as the lack of discretion used with the totally legal "zero tolerance" policies in recent years.
So what $ amount is the floor for stealing? If he had stollen $50 worth of power? $100 worth of books? At what point would it no longer be an example of "zero tolerance" and been legit theft?
I don't think the police over reacted because I don' think the theft was the main issue. The guy had be asked several times to stay away from the school. He repeatedly came back to the school. Then he went a step further and plugged his car into the school. When the police asked him to leave he accused the cop of damaging his car. This gave them a way to do something to him to try and get through to him he does not belong. Instead of looking at the theft look at it as a neighbors dog the keeps coming into your yard. You've talked to the owned but it keeps coming back, and now when you chase him off instead of leaving he stays and growls at you. The next step is to shoot it or call the dog catcher. There is too much paperwork to shoot him so they called the dog catcher.
Datsun1500 wrote: I read about it last night with the report below. From what I see they guy was not welcome at the school, was told multiple times, and was an ass to the cop. Does this change anything? It sounds to me like he was the type of guy that thought he was above everyone else, we all know a guy like that.... A School is private property, if I ran a cord to your porch from the street, would you have an issue? Would you the 2nd time I did it?We received a 911 call advising that someone was plugged into the power outlet behind the middle school. The responding officer located the vehicle in the rear of the building at the kitchen loading dock up against the wall with a cord run to an outlet. The officer spent some time trying to determine whose vehicle it was. It was unlocked and he eventually began looking through the interior after verifying it did not belong to the school system. The officer, his marked patrol vehicle and the electric vehicle were all in clear view of the tennis courts. Eventually, a man on the courts told the officer that the man playing tennis with him owned the vehicle. The officer went to the courts and interviewed the vehicle owner. The officer's initial incident report gives a good indication of how difficult and argumentative the individual was to deal with. He made no attempt to apologize or simply say oops and he wouldn't do it again. Instead he continued being argumentative, acknowledged he did not have permission and then accused the officer of having damaged his car door. The officer told him that was not true and that the vehicle and existing damage was already on his vehicles video camera from when he drove up. Given the uncooperative attitude and accusations of damage to his vehicle, the officer chose to document the incident on an incident report. The report was listed as misdemeanor theft by taking. The officer had no way of knowing how much power had been consumed, how much it cost nor how long it had been charging. The report made its way to Sgt Ford's desk for a follow up investigation. He contacted the middle school and inquired of several administrative personnel whether the individual had permission to use power. He was advised no. Sgt. Ford showed a photo to the school resource officer who recognized Mr. Kamooneh. Sgt Ford was further advised that Mr. Kamooneh had previously been advised he was not allowed on the school tennis courts without permission from the school . This was apparently due to his interfering with the use of the tennis courts previously during school hours. Based upon the totality of these circumstances and without any expert advice on the amount of electricity that may have been used, Sgt Ford signed a theft warrant. The warrant was turned over to the DeKalb Sheriffs Dept for service because the individual lived in Decatur, not Chamblee. This is why he was arrested at a later time. I am sure that Sgt. Ford was feeling defensive when he said a theft is a theft and he would do it again. Ultimately, Sgt. Ford did make the decision to pursue the theft charges, but the decision was based on Mr. Kamooneh having been advised that he was not allowed on the property without permission. Had he complied with that notice none of this would have occurred. Mr. Kamooneh's son is not a student at the middle school and he was not the one playing tennis. Mr. Kamooneh was taking lessons himself.
I support death by lethal electricution? 
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