cheapest way to go fast

Not saying that 'Vettes are the wrong way to do it. But anything can be made fast if you have time or skill. And I want to see these $500 cars you can just buy and take to the race track. I would be willing to bet they are going to need at least $500 of work to make them decently safe for track use (new tires [not talking R-Comps but any car at that price will need new tires], brakes [cause I am not driving something on the track without at least refreshing the brakes which will probably be needed], suspension [replacing old shocks and bushings]).

In reply to 93EXCivic:

I'll still stand by my position that I'd save money buying motomoron's DSR car or a used Viper vs building a CRX, Miata or E30 into something that could attempt to dispose of either of those in any environment.

I like to build things myself but I am done kidding myself about the costs... if I added up all the tools, mistakes, materials that it has taken me to build something I can beat my own time in just by forking over $10k to moto's circle of friends - I would be weeping right now before I even put in a nickel for my time lost.

Would someone show me where the race-ready $500 Vettes and $20k Vipers are?

Edit to add: Not intended to be a flame. I really dislike Corvettes but I would TOTALLY jump on a $500 race prepped example.

mguar wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: Well, what would you buy? I suggested an old C4 Corvette because I've seen enough around that price to know they exist.. Me? I started with a Free Jaguar XJ-S V12 But I know those cars well. Mustang or Camero that was maybe stolen or has body damage? Yes there are plenty of cheap imports available too(and as a Jag guy I have nothing against Imports.) But when they're that far down you may as well get a Big 6, V8, or V12

If i only had $500 and wanted to go racing, i wouldn't buy anything. I'd do like you said in your OP and save up until i could afford it.

Any of you ever been to the Grassroots Motorsports Challenge?

It's this pretty cool racing event that pits low cost cars against each other!

Hondas ALWAYS do well, on both the autocross AND the drags. A Vette has won only once, and that was because the drags were cancelled due to rain. If they had taken place, I am completely confident that the Vette would have been beaten handily by a Fiat. Easily.

mguar wrote: In reply to motomoron: $10,000? what if that's not in the pocket? What if you have say barely $500? but periodically you might have that much or a touch more? Banks won't loan money on a race car (thank goodness)

You cannot road race for last place on a trickle of $500 2 or 3x a year. The license and entry fees alone would use up a budget like that. One set of tires for anything road worthy exceeds $500 before you mount them. For the cars you are talking about - a C4 - a set of Hoosier R6s will set you back $1300. They last 2 weekends.

You can take a $500 car and make a road racer out of it but don't go kidding anyone - you need to set aside some serious scratch.

Good advice: If you have $500 to get started road racing you should buy running shoes.

JohnInKansas wrote: Would someone show me where the race-ready $500 Vettes and $20k Vipers are? Edit to add: Not intended to be a flame. I really dislike Corvettes but I would TOTALLY jump on a $500 race prepped example.

$20k for a 1st gen Viper is doable

Here is a low miles '94 for $23k

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=08054&endYear=2002&modelCode1=VIPER&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&showcaseOwnerId=70760&startYear=1981&makeCode1=DODGE&searchRadius=0&listingId=305398439&Log=0

We can all argue in circles till blue in the face on this.

From one perspective you could say shifter kart #/endthread

I have been looking an thinking for quite awhile. Once I have a job in my field and I can save for a bit and settle down here is the answer I have arrived at.

F500 car

For previous example of laptimes at Summit Point, the class record is 1'17.1"

You can buy a used road race ready car for $6k often with spares (few sets of wheels, engine(s), etc)

Forget about paying for shocks, you just replace the rubber pucks every year or so. Yes, you have to learn to tune a 2-smoke and a CVT, also they make perhaps the most annoying sound in the world. BUT, they are cheap.

Adding to the cheapness, they weigh 800lbs WITH DRIVER. that allows you to pull it on a RATHER small trailer. So cancel the big truck requirement of trailering other cars.

CSR/DSR, I find very interesting. F500 is just a cheaper option. (no shocks, no wings, no LSD/halfshafts etc, so fewer parts and cheaper)

You also have the interesting future of F600.

The F600 is the same car, ~800lbs with driver, no springs/shocks, no wings, and a 600cc sport bike motor in place of the snowmobile 2smoke and cvt.

added bonus on an f500 car, less then a days work to change from competitive RR spec to competitive FM AX spec.

That said, you could likely beat it with a laydown endurokart, but thats a safety tradeoff that crosses my line.

SVreX wrote: Any of you ever been to the Grassroots Motorsports Challenge? It's this pretty cool racing event that pits low cost cars against each other! Hondas ALWAYS do well, on both the autocross AND the drags. A Vette has won only once, and that was because the drags were cancelled due to rain. If they had taken place, I am completely confident that the Vette would have been beaten handily by a Fiat. Easily.

I did presume we were discussing road racing - or at least something involving an actual road course. I suppose the Challenge is racing since there is a stop watch involved in 2 of the events but ... I think many of those cars would struggle to be allowed into that format ( like UTCC) without some major modifications - adding cost.

If we are just talking any racing at all - I have a .22 round here that will outpace any drag car and it only cost about .18 ($70.18 with the rifle) :)

mguar wrote: In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac: Saving; That certainly is a way.. I tired that for years and finally broke down and Bought a $300 Jaguar.. Within the year it was race ready.. I did that with a small tool box (maybe 30 pounds?) shopping around carefully and working my Butt off.. Also it's what every Chumpcar/Lemons racer starts with (or less)

So you did the opposite of what you said you should do in your OP?

Or is this in all actuality a "4 cylinders suck!" thread?

In reply to Apexcarver:

From talking to F600 racers, the biggest reason why they switched from F500 is the CVT. Apparently CVT setup is the difference between a class win and being DFL. They also said that it's black magic and paying someone to do it is damn expensive.

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:

I know a lot of drag racers who would thoroughly disagree with you implying that drag racing is not racing.

10 second cars running 130 mph that are completely NHRA legal for under $2K is pretty cheap speed.

Apexcarver wrote: We can all argue in circles till blue in the face on this. From one perspective you could say shifter kart #/endthread I have been looking an thinking for quite awhile. Once I have a job in my field and I can save for a bit and settle down here is the answer I have arrived at. F500 car For previous example of laptimes at Summit Point, the class record is 1'17.1" You can buy a used road race ready car for $6k often with spares (few sets of wheels, engine(s), etc) Forget about paying for shocks, you just replace the rubber pucks every year or so. Yes, you have to learn to tune a 2-smoke and a CVT, also they make perhaps the most annoying sound in the world. BUT, they are cheap. Adding to the cheapness, they weigh 800lbs WITH DRIVER. that allows you to pull it on a RATHER small trailer. So cancel the big truck requirement of trailering other cars. CSR/DSR, I find very interesting. F500 is just a cheaper option. (no shocks, no wings, no LSD/halfshafts etc, so fewer parts and cheaper) You also have the interesting future of F600. The F600 is the same car, ~800lbs with driver, no springs/shocks, no wings, and a 600cc sport bike motor in place of the snowmobile 2smoke and cvt. added bonus on an f500 car, less then a days work to change from competitive RR spec to competitive FM AX spec. That said, you could likely beat it with a laydown endurokart, but thats a safety tradeoff that crosses my line.

F500 I just can't stand the sound... and ....

F600... interesting but I am scared of open wheel cars. Fenders are like a hug of reassurance even if they are just dinky little fiberglass shells.

DSR - I didn't realize buy in was that low s I never considered it. Now I am furiously googling them.

For low buy in, low operating cost, reasonable but not blinding speed I find SRF hard to argue with. The size of fields almost guarantees you will be racing in a crowd and they have marginal fenders to make me feel like a little rub isn't going to send me flying (it's a lie I tell myself but... shhhhhh).

SVreX wrote: In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker: I know a lot of drag racers who would thoroughly disagree with you implying that drag racing is not racing. 10 second cars running 130 mph that are completely NHRA legal for under $2K is pretty cheap speed.

I didn't imply it wasn't racing. I stated that it wasn't the kind this thread was in reference to.

mguar wrote: Blah blah blah $500 car Also it's what every Chumpcar/Lemons racer starts with (or less)

We've already debunked that myth here. The average LeMons/Chump Car is $2500-$3000 to get it on the track the first time.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: So you did the opposite of what you said you should do in your OP? Or is this in all actuality a "4 cylinders suck!" thread?

This is a "I will not lose an argument - even to people who agreed with my original post" thread.

mguar wrote: Have you ever legged out a big thunderboomer on a long straight? Have that motor shove you back into the seat and let it pull you to the vanishing point? But everybody owes themselves at least a little taste of the wild side..

LMAO at this description!!!!

Drive an 8 second drag car that lay down 160MPH in under 1,320 feet then tell me you know what the "wild side" is.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: So you did the opposite of what you said you should do in your OP? Or is this in all actuality a "4 cylinders suck!" thread?

This is a "I will not lose an argument - even to people who agreed with my original post" thread.

Oh i get it now. So if i say that he wins, does he actually come back and say that he loses?

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:

I'm in MD near DC - you're around here somewhere, right?

Regarding operating expenses and cost, last season the MARRS series was run mostly at Summit Point, so my only travel was to VIR for the GRM UTCC - I used 2 sets of Hoosier bias slicks at about $1k/set, and post UTCC redid the fuel pump and tidied up the wiring and exhaust a bit - maybe a grand in odd parts for the season.

I'm converting the car to C sports racer spec where it'll run at or about class minimum weight vs. the 25% above class weight where it is now - as in, I'm at class minimum until I get in the car...

This is not a cheap undertaking, but I'm trying to do it as reasonably as possible considering time in the total-cost equation. A 2006 Suzuki Hayabusa "car kit" was sourced for $1500, mounts from Radical were about $400. Oil pan (remember, over 2 Gs lateral...) was wicked expensive. Car had a fuel tank, not a fuel cell, and it has to be custom made by Fuel Safe. It's...ummm...expensive.

All in, totally fresh and really right and tight I'll still have well under 20k in the car, and it'll be capable of 14s, maybe 13s at Summit, and it'll use $1k tire sets and blow up $1500 engines, so, bang-buck? not bad at all.

And even though it has a whopping 1 liter of motor - what I think of every every day is the very short duration between the #1 brake marker and when the car has to be turned, downshifted 3 times, and hard on the throttle, clawing for grip and using every bit of the exit. I also think about not lifting for T4, barely making T5, and the happy surprise of not going off the exit of T10 every lap.

1'17" at Summit on a nicely oiled track.

Javelin wrote: Drive an 8 second drag car that lay down 160MPH in under 1,320 feet *then* tell me you know what the "wild side" is.

That first turn is where it really gets wild in the 8 sec drag car!

Besides, OP is full of it. No matter how fast your big "thunderboomer" is - the straights on a road course are where you take a breather/tighten the belts/check the guages and get ready for the real work coming up. I have never been in a car fast enough to scare me on a straight but I've been scared pretty good more than a few times cornering at 140.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: F500 I just can't stand the sound... and .... F600... interesting but I am scared of open wheel cars. Fenders are like a hug of reassurance even if they are just dinky little fiberglass shells. DSR - I didn't realize buy in was that low s I never considered it. Now I am furiously googling them. For low buy in, low operating cost, reasonable but not blinding speed I find SRF hard to argue with. The size of fields almost guarantees you will be racing in a crowd and they have marginal fenders to make me feel like a little rub isn't going to send me flying (it's a lie I tell myself but... shhhhhh).

Its interesting that in a way, the reasons you hate open wheels leads to me liking them.

People racing in open wheels seem far less interested in contact then those with fenders.

The only problems with SRF to me are the sealed motors and trans. You have to have it rebuilt and sealed by SCCA, which costs more money then DIY (obviously).

That said, it evens the playing field with people who want to race their wallet.

Javelin wrote:

mguar wrote: Blah blah blah $500 car Also it's what every Chumpcar/Lemons racer starts with (or less)

We've already debunked that myth here. The average LeMons/Chump Car is $2500-$3000 to get it on the track the first time.

Yep. We have no intention of tallying up the receipts for our "free" Chump Alfa. We know we had well over $3k invested by the first track time. I jumped at the opportunity to get in on it because that IS cheap racing. Split 3 or 4k between 5 or 6 team members and you're in the sub-thousand range.

Racing is too damn addictive to even think about getting into if you don't have the capital to support the habit.

D/SR

just do it

I know a guy who wants to free-lease me his Zink for the season. Wife has given me the tentative green light. All he wants in return is the car to be running and functional at the end of the season (as it is now). Should I do it?

motomoron wrote: In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker: I'm in MD near DC - you're around here somewhere, right? Regarding operating expenses and cost, last season the MARRS series was run mostly at Summit Point, so my only travel was to VIR for the GRM UTCC - I used 2 sets of Hoosier bias slicks at about $1k/set, and post UTCC redid the fuel pump and tidied up the wiring and exhaust a bit - maybe a grand in odd parts for the season. I'm converting the car to C sports racer spec where it'll run at or about class minimum weight vs. the 25% above class weight where it is now - as in, I'm at class minimum until I get in the car... This is not a cheap undertaking, but I'm trying to do it as reasonably as possible considering time in the total-cost equation. A 2006 Suzuki Hayabusa "car kit" was sourced for $1500, mounts from Radical were about $400. Oil pan (remember, over 2 Gs lateral...) was wicked expensive. Car had a fuel tank, not a fuel cell, and it has to be custom made by Fuel Safe. It's...ummm...expensive. All in, totally fresh and really right and tight I'll still have well under 20k in the car, and it'll be capable of 14s, maybe 13s at Summit, and it'll use $1k tire sets and blow up $1500 engines, so, bang-buck? not bad at all.

Thanks for the reply -

My car was/is right at around $10k to build - and my tires are the same cost as yours. I also have more to do to with aero and fuel system, etc. (always) So - really it sounds like it comes down to a push on vehicle cost. A little more for special parts on the sports racer - a little more on towing for the GTS4 car.

Certainly - a whopper of a difference on potential speed for similar money though. How are the field sizes? Good competition at the regional level?