Sure. All are welcome. We don't judge.
Sure. All are welcome. We don't judge.
ShadowSix wrote: "starting from scratch" is not the answer.
I'm talking about design. The chassis doesn't really need to change much, but they need to get out of the design language that they have been milking for almost a decade. Like I said, if you want your cars to sell you have to give the public something that will get them away from the competitor. For an A to B type car, they're good, but there are so many cars that just look better.
However, the Type-R is coming back to the US in 2015. Will that help overall Civic sales? Probably not, will it put the Civic back on the radar, maybe. They need a different look and the Euro Civic has that look. It needs to be brought here.
What Honda NA needs to do is start using some of the Euro design language. That would definitely have people look at a Civic over a Mazda 3 or Hyundai Elantra
I would definitely look at the Euro Civic over the US Civic.
2015 US Spec Civic
or
2015 Euro Spec Civic
I would even look at the Civic Tourer if they sold it here.
I'm just wondering what Americans dislike about hatchbacks. I told the wife I was buying the MS3 for practicality reasons when I really just wanted something absurd that wasn't an obvious sports car. Having owned it for two years now I can safely say I'll never buy another sedan again. The hatch is so much more convenient than a sedan.
Honda could win me over by bringing the new Type-R to the US, you know the one they claim is more capable than an NSX. I could probably be convinced pretty easily to trade up. But alas it is only for every other market other than the US.
small hatchbacks, wagons and even minivans have all been replaced with crossovers and SUV's. Otherwise its all Prius or its related clones. That's what people buy or they buy something "cute" and "sporty" so its a 500, Mini, Miata, etc. Unless they are commuters and they just need a basic sedan or work provides a car and to not be offensive and blend in, so its Camry's, Taurus, etc.
Seriously, talk to people sometimes (outside of the car folks) and you'll find out that many have very irrational beliefs about cars and what it says about them. My wife for example hates Volvo's, just too boxy, even after taking a ride in a friend's T5R AWD (that isn't boxy at all). She also doesn't want a minivan or a wagon, yet she loves her Highlander and wants another. So yeah, irrational and trying to build and market cars to these people, let alone sell them is a hell of a job.
Bottom line is that the Civic sells. As of the end of November, Honda had sold 300,644 Civics YTD, down 6,536 from the end of 11/13 (-2.1%)
Some Compact Comparisons YTD end of 11/13 - YTD end of 11/14 (with losses):
Focus: -6.5% = -14,250 cars
Elantra: -10.2% = -23,057 cars
Lancer: -17.4% = -3,141 cars
Mazda 3: -1.8% = -1778 cars
Jetta: -2.1% = -3,105 cars
The Civic's sales were second to the Corolla/Matrix, -8729 YTD end of 11/14.
JFX001 wrote: Bottom line is that the Civic sells. As of the end of November, Honda had sold 300,644 Civics YTD, down 6,536 from the end of 11/13 (-2.1%)
Seriously, people. How can anyone think that a car that sells 300,000 units a year isn't popular?
The world car market does not relovlve around us, the enthusiests. As I see it, the market would generally be better off by ignoring us. This is a good case of that- the #1 selling car- one that probably makes the most money, too, is one that people here would ignore.
I remember the horror of when Honda simplified the front suspension of the Civic- how many people assumed that the car would die. When, in fact, sales have inched up, and with the simpler front suspension, surely Honda is making more money with it.
I like hatches, I like manuals, and drive a manual hatch right now. But given the choice of making 20,000 enthusiests happy+ 100,000 normal customers or making 20,000 enthusiests really angry but selling to 200,000 normal customers- yea, the math is pretty easy on that one.
(BTW, JFX, where did you get that data? I know where to get OUR sales numbers, but it's hard to get others)
codrus wrote:logdog wrote:Can I bring my Audi? :)David S. Wallens wrote: Not all of the auto journalists have counted out the latest Civic: There's now a new Civic Si sedan parked in my garage. (Well, technically my wife just moved it out of the garage for a few, but you know what I mean.)Welcome to the "Unpopular on GRM Car Club" with us 500L drivers. The meetings are on Wednesdays and we rotate who brings cookies.
Probably won't make it. 
The0retical wrote: I'm just wondering what Americans dislike about hatchbacks. I told the wife I was buying the MS3 for practicality reasons when I really just wanted something absurd that wasn't an obvious sports car. Having owned it for two years now I can safely say I'll never buy another sedan again. The hatch is so much more convenient than a sedan. Honda could win me over by bringing the new Type-R to the US, you know the one they claim is more capable than an NSX. I could probably be convinced pretty easily to trade up. But alas it is only for every other market other than the US.
it's like diesel cars in the US. The ones we got first were cheap and poorly engineered.. so people still consider a hatchback to be a "cheap car"
You can thank the Chevette, Gremlin, Pacer, Yugo, and Excel for that image that people have of hatchbacks.
I also don't get the hatchback hate. In terms of cars with "real" back seats and day to day functionality:
Hatchbacks and wagons are better than sedans.
Sedans are better than cars with two doors.
This is fact. Personal preference regarding styling plays a large part regarding what somebody is going to buy, but I really can't help but think that the preference for two door cars harkens back to the Sloan Plan at GM that had the sporty models wearing only two doors. Looking at cars like the Mazda6 or the VW CC, the lines of those cars with four doors is very coupe-ish.
being older, and less flexible than I used to be … I would rather have a 3 dr hatch … the wider doors make it a bit easier to get into and out of … the door extends past the B pillar … with a 4 door, the B pillar is in front of the back of the seat … cuts down on how much room I have to get in and out
when I bought my Sonic, I was considering the Cruze … but I dawned on me that since 1976, I've had 1 car that didn't have a rear lift back … decided that I really didn't want a sedan .. even if the gas milage suffers due to the aero penalty the hatch presents
Honda can't sell Civics because Honda is dumb.
SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote: I would even look at the Civic Tourer if they sold it here.
WOW, is that ever fugly.
I know, aesthetics, subjective, I get it. But wow, that thing does nothing for me. 
I don't hate hatches or coupes. Just not a big fan of 2-doors for my personal applications. The 5-door layout is ideal for me, but that still smells too much like "station wagon" for the average American trend-follower to stomach.
DILYSI Dave wrote: Honda can't sell Civics because Honda is dumb.
They sell 300k of them a year. Not dumb.
Brett_Murphy wrote: I also don't get the hatchback hate. In terms of cars with "real" back seats and day to day functionality: Hatchbacks and wagons are better than sedans. Sedans are better than cars with two doors. This is fact. Personal preference regarding styling plays a large part regarding what somebody is going to buy, but I really can't help but think that the preference for two door cars harkens back to the Sloan Plan at GM that had the sporty models wearing only two doors. Looking at cars like the Mazda6 or the VW CC, the lines of those cars with four doors is very coupe-ish.
Coupes have larger doors that are easier to get in and out of. Coupes don't have a b-pillar right next your head like a sedan does.
Yes, if you use the back seat alot, a sedan is the better choice. Mine gets used once or twice a year. I'm not going to whack my head on a b-pillar everyday for that.
I'm not saying don't build sedans, or that coupes are better. Build both and let folks buy what fits their needs best. I'd rather have a small wagon over a sedan if I needed 4 doors.
Wait, WHAT? They sold 2 Aveos in 2013? And 3 HHRs?
Small hatches went out of favor here because of the same reason we've always had larger cars than Europe and Japan: cheap gas means that larger vehicles with even more utility win out. Why get a small, low hatch when a slightly larger, slight taller "hatch" with more day to day utility is available for very nearly the same price? Thus the CRV, Rav 4, and other small to mid size CUVs, etc. Why buy a low station wagon when the big boys offered even more utility on a day to day basis (SUVs had more interior height for larger loads, more ground clearance for the few times you wanted that, easier ingress and egress due to higher seating surfaces and door frames, etc). And if you don't need the utility of a hatch, why get one? Sedans work just fine and traditionally luxury cars and sporty cars have been sedans and coupes (or coupe-like sedans).
While I love our MINI Cooper, there are times (like yesterday, when I brought home a 58" TV and delivered the 55" DLP it replaced to it's new owner) when having a larger SUV comes in handy.
Duke wrote: Wait, WHAT? They sold **2** Aveos in 2013? And **3** HHRs?
What I find intersting is that they list the Cruze, but not the same chassis Volt, the Versa but not the Leaf, and yet DO list the iMiEV, which sells barely any in comparison.
pinchvalve wrote: Honda makes two small hatchbacks, the CR-V and the Element. Both have taken over where the Civic Hatch and Accord wagon left off. The problem with the Civic is that it has has not enough horsepower for way too long, and has been an ugly duckling for equally as long. The Koreans do value better, Ford, VW and Mazda do sporty better, lots of companies do mileage as well or better...what is the reason to go with a Civic anymore? And why pick a Civic when you can get the better and more practical Fit for a little less, or the amazing Accord for a little more?
Mindless Zombies who don't read CR and such.....come to think of it, Mindless Zombies are what has kept honda going for years.
We need to focus our attention on which company we want to put out of business for making non-enthusiast approved cars. Then we can launch a crowd funding campaign to buy the network and factories. Then we can make the best car in the world, sell it to the masses and make some righteous bucks to spend on Miatas. Who is with me!?!?!
logdog wrote: We need to focus our attention on which company we want to put out of business for making non-enthusiast approved cars. Then we can launch a crowd funding campaign to buy the network and factories. Then we can make the best car in the world, sell it to the masses and make some righteous bucks to spend on Miatas. Who is with me!?!?!
The big FAIL in your plan is the same problem that this thread has. The "masses" won't buy the car you build. They buy Civics.
turboswede wrote: Otherwise its all Prius or its related clones.
I actually like the Prius' body. It's a very practical design. If I could get one with a Corolla 1.8/6MT drivetrain, I'd buy one.
bravenrace wrote:logdog wrote: We need to focus our attention on which company we want to put out of business for making non-enthusiast approved cars. Then we can launch a crowd funding campaign to buy the network and factories. Then we can make the best car in the world, sell it to the masses and make some righteous bucks to spend on Miatas. Who is with me!?!?!The big FAIL in your plan is the same problem that this thread has. The "masses" won't buy the car you build. They buy Civics.
Dang it! ! Its like some sort of vicious circle!
In reply to EvanR:
I have similar thoughts on the CR-Z. Set a small turbo on the 1.5, give me a row-my-own, and Honda can have my money.
logdog wrote:David S. Wallens wrote: Not all of the auto journalists have counted out the latest Civic: There's now a new Civic Si sedan parked in my garage. (Well, technically my wife just moved it out of the garage for a few, but you know what I mean.)Welcome to the "Unpopular on GRM Car Club" with us 500L drivers. The meetings are on Wednesdays and we rotate who brings cookies.
Does my 370 count, it gets a lot of hate here?
As for the Civic, Honda has pretty much nothing I'm interested in, but my sister, the college professor, loves them. She has a new Civic that she traded her Corolla for, and my Brother in law has a new CRZ, which is actually OK.
The Civic is a Camry in drag. It's about the same size as my wife's old '93 Camry, but doesn't drive quite a well. It's mind numbingly dull to drive and look at, but in truth, that's what most people want. As long as it has plenty of buttons, they couldn't care less about anything else. And to her, as long as it is remotely "green", that's all she cares about.
We have to face it, we are not the car buying public. We're a fringe they have to sort of tolerate as they turn out toasters for the masses.
You'll need to log in to post.
