College money. Holy carp.

In reply to spitfirebill :

But anymore you're just paying for the piece of paper at the end.

Anything anyone could want or need to learn about can be done for free now, at home or on the go. 

My E36 M3ty experiences with useless administrative staff at colleges aside, I think a majority of fields would benefit with specific qualification testing instead of just looking for a piece of paper. Who gives a E36 M3 if you didn't spent $200k on a degree if you can prove you know and understand your position? It's been my working experience that the dumbest, yet also highest paid, people only got there because of who they know anyway, education or qualifications be damned. 

Streetwiseguy said:

Apparently, in this great white north socialist paradise, you don't have to pay tuition after age 65. 

You can't take up a paying seat, but yeah, if there's room, it's free.

The cost of college is so broken and the changes to the loan system right before I went to college helped put nails in that coffin for me.

I dropped out with nearly 100k in debt 5 and a half years ago.

I am a prideful person, and I refused to move back in with my parents, that was true failure, if I didn't have to move back in and my bills all got paid, I never had to admit defeat.

And using that motivation, I've always fought tooth and nail to make sure my bills got paid and I was fully independent of my parents. I have learned so much after dropping out of college.

The cost was high, but the lessons I learned there and the connections I made were worth it in retrospect. 

I am lucky that networking comes naturally to me. I'm better at it than anyone in my family and it's why I've succeeded in spite of my dropping out of college. 

I tell parents at my job to think long and hard before they get into student loans with their kids. For their sake and their kids sake. 

I still got some debt. Will pay off really soon at the age of forty. But I wouldn’t be where I am without it. 

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

What are you referencing when you say "I wouldn't be where I am without it"? Where you are salary wise? Overall financial health? Happiness? Job fulfillment? It sounds like you use the debt to motivate you to increase your salary, but are you actually better off overall because of the debt that you've been burdened with for 25% of your life?

I'd say that working my way through school and paying as I went to avoid debt has had a massive positive impact on my overall life. It took a couple years longer, but It allowed me to invest some of my meager college job earnings while studying, and freed up much more of my salary for the early part of my career before the cost of kids/homeownership, etc. That money can now grow and compound even as my responsibilities increase. I was able to save for a larger downpayment  on a nicer home than I would've bought with debt. I've been able to stay in a steady, decent paying job that I enjoy, in a location I like, vs always having to chase a higher paying job doing whatever, wherever. If I had a bunch of debt hanging over me, I might be motivated to go for higher paying jobs, but I don't think that I'd necessarily have a higher quality of life overall, and I'm much more interested in that than a salary number on an IRS form.

Personal outlook has a ton to do with this of course. Everybody wants to feel justified in their approach. Some people will look at debt and be motivated, while others will see it as an anchor. I just think that people really need to consider what is important to them long term before they saddle themselves with the load of student debt. IF there's no other way to get the education and a job in a decent career field then it can make sense. But I think there are plenty of other options these days that end up with a nice quality of life without massive debt from a traditional 4 year college career.

It's still possible to get a degree without stupid amounts of debt. I came out with an engineering degree and 20k in Debt. That's about paid off after 8 years. I love my job. I've always gotten paid well, and never had any issues finding work. 

I went to a state school on the cheaper end of the spectrum, Had 4 roommates in a crappy house, and worked as a co op for 2 years. 

It's still very possible to get through school without a lot of debt. I did it going to a private catholic university only because I needed the night classes. There are 4 things I did.

1. I did clep exams as much as possible. I got the study guide and knocked out a lot of my fine art, humanity, and socail sciences requirements with those. Got I think it was 24 credit for $650 

2. Where I couldn't clep, I hit the local CC. Again for classes not as part of my major.

3. I only took the required major classes at my university. So I only paid the full rate for the classes I really saw value in taking at the university. 

4, I worked full time during most of this time. Yeah it was a pain and I didn't have a lot of social life but I busted it out quick. 

I really worry for my niece. She is looking at really expensive private schools to take up acting. Well, it's great and all if you are one of the approximately 1000 or so regular screen actors but a large majority never make it or if they do it's a long long journey with little pay until that big break comes along. She is going to end up in pretty big debts and not earning anything really for many years. I don't want to bust this kid's dream but I don't see this ending well. 

In reply to bmw88rider :

My daughter wants to go to school for dance.  I told her that was fine but to also major in Engineering, Computer Science, Pre-Med, etc...

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

There are other alternatives.  

Try the GI bill. 

Remarkably only a tiny percentage of those in the military wind up shooting a rifle, crawling through mud/jungle as their job.  Most wind up as technical people. Electronics, computers, airplanes etc.  

A very high percentage never leave the state’s.  ( (although travel at someone else’s expense is a big attraction of the service) 

Boot camp is just a process to get through. Sure Marines and Army break you down to remold you but The Navy and Coast Guard   and  even the Air Force have a much  more goal driven process.  They tell you what you’re going to do, why you need to learn and make sure you understand before moving on to the next part. 

Yes there is marching in formation. Big deal,  it’s just walking. It’s actually fun and a source of pride once you master it.  Great drill instructors motivate you.  

People are treated with respect. Because most recruits are an expensive asset. Yes there is shouting sometimes but that is considered a failure and other Drill instructors will talk and train the shouters.  Drill instructors are closely monitored to prevent abuses. 

The pay is very fair when you consider you are fed clothed, given housing, health care, dental, training and insurance. 

Then when your obligation is over you can buy a house with nothing down,  lowest interest, and all sorts of other benefits. 

Like money for college!  

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

I got two years of college during my time in the service. Paid for by the Navy. Then when I got out I got two more under the GI bill. I also bought my first house GI nothing down. 

In my retirement I make too much money for VA medical benefits but allowed income goes up as my income will go down.  Eventually I’ll take advantage of those VA benefits.  A few friends have gotten dental implants to replace their dentures not to mention all sorts of medical assistance. 

Spam

RevRico said:

In reply to spitfirebill :

But anymore you're just paying for the piece of paper at the end.

Anything anyone could want or need to learn about can be done for free now, at home or on the go. 

My E36 M3ty experiences with useless administrative staff at colleges aside, I think a majority of fields would benefit with specific qualification testing instead of just looking for a piece of paper. Who gives a E36 M3 if you didn't spent $200k on a degree if you can prove you know and understand your position? It's been my working experience that the dumbest, yet also highest paid, people only got there because of who they know anyway, education or qualifications be damned. 

The trouble is getting Hired.  At least with the diploma you have confirmation of a third party’s confirmation of certain knowledge or skills.  

How would you like to go to a doctor or dentist with no confirmation he can do the job?  

Go to the hospital with a heart attack only to find out the Doctor padded his resume?  In a airline only to find the pilot doesn’t really know how to land?  

Same with companies doing the hiring, they are going to spend money, they want confirmation that they aren’t wasting time and money on you.  

In reply to frenchyd :

I'm not going to argue with you, I know there's no point.

My family's experience with "the father of the kidney transplant" showed me that medical careers are based on how you are perceived, not the work you do.

My experiences with a particular vascular surgeon showed me that even "professionals" will put their own personal opinions and ideals above proper surgical work.

So I stand beside my statement. Life isn't about what you know, or what a piece of paper says you know, it's who you know and how you can leverage them. The field of work makes no difference.

I never finished college; I went to be a history teacher but at the beginning of my junior year I discovered I HATED teaching high schoolers and I HATED having all this debt. I dropped out; I had been detailing cars and selling shoes at Sears while at school and it wouldn’t pay the bills so I joined a union apprentice program as a sign painter. I’m a non-union fan now but apprenticeship and training programs need to be more prevalent than they are. I learned everything I could about every job I could and worked my way through different departments (sign and exhibit house) ending up as operations manager. I’ve tried to go back and finish the degree but night/weekend/online courses don’t fit well with the current occupation as a District Manager of four states and the prices are REALLY steep for what they are so here I am at almost forty without a degree but doing what I love.

Spam

But I don't like Spam...

aircooled said:

But I don't like Spam...

Spam was a damn fine meal in college, hypertension be damned

Canoe

Fueled by Caffeine said:

Canoe

Five days I've been waiting for this

edit: Canoe Deleted

This thread is pretty old at this point, but I just looked up in-state tuition & fees (excluding books/room/board) and its about $6k/yr in my state for a top 50 nationally-ranked public university.  Call it $7500 with books.  Still have to live somewhere & eat no matter what you do.

Median payoff for a degree is ~10X the total tuition/fees/books in net present dollars.

It's not for everyone, and don't go to a private school for a humanities degree if the economics of it matter to you.

https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/research-summaries/education-earnings.html

In reply to pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) :

DD#2 got accepted to University of Chicago in 2014.  While it was more than we were willing to afford, it was nowhere near $70k a year.  That seems suspect to me.

Duke said:

In reply to pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) :

DD#2 got accepted to University of Chicago in 2014.  While it was more than we were willing to afford, it was nowhere near $70k a year.  That seems suspect to me.

 

They're probably including room and board in those numbers:

"Tuition for the 2019-2020 school year is $57,642, while room and board on-campus costs roughly $17,004 per year". Add books, lab fees, etc and you're well over $75k per year.

But also from the same link:

"UChicago guarantees free tuition for families with incomes under $125,000 per year (with typical assets), while families earning less than $60,000 (with typical assets) will have tuition, fees, and room and board covered by financial aid. Students who are the first in their families to attend college will receive a $20,000 scholarship over four years and a guaranteed paid internship for their first summer."

We just got the happy news that one of the schools my son is looking at thinks it's reasonable that we should be able to contribute 30% of our household gross income PER YEAR for him to attend and, therefore, little/no financial aid will be offered.  We have a little saved for his college but, apparently, we're also expected to clean out every other form of savings we have managed to scrape together over 25 years so he can attend their precious school.  Also they will accept approximately 0% of the college credits he's accumulated in the past few years of high school.  By some reports, this same school has spent approximately $350,000,000 in recent years improving it's athletic facilities. 

This is an old thread and I don't remember what I may have posted earlier, so forgive me if I'm repeating myself here.

College administrations are concerned with two things: recruitment and retention. Recruiting for top-tier schools means getting students who will likely be economically or professionally successful and reflect well on the school, as well as hopefully contribute to its endowment, which in turn means well-known faculty and high end research facilities. For most others it's an increasingly cutthroat competition for as many warm bodies as can be had, which means buttering them up with new sports fields and nice dorms. Retention means keeping them there - at the pointy end that's about amenities and experience; for the rest it's about meeting academic standards and ability to pay.

Costs have spiraled as administrations spend more and more on all this stuff (they certainly aren't spending it on non-famous faculty, I promise you). It's a Catch-22; if schools keep tuition low but don't spend they fear they will lose students to schools with better facilities, but in order to draw students they have to spend more money on improvements, which in turn drives costs up. In turn, they push for more and more government assistance for students, arguing that if the government doesn't come through some students won't be able to attend, conveniently forgetting to mention that a modicum of fiscal discipline on their collective parts could have mitigated this very situation. As an undergraduate degree has now come to be expected in many fields, much as a high school diploma was at one time, there's more and more money tied up in higher education, but the linkage between financial outlay and quality of education is tenuous at best.

Students who want to learn will. Students who just want a piece of paper will get one in most cases (because if they don't the school loses out on their tuition). For anyone looking at schools now, look for programs that are popping up around the country that offer financial incentives tied to academic counseling - these often help keep first- and second-year students on the right track, which in turn means less money wasted on repeating failed freshman survey classes or worse. Some of these are grant-funded privately, meaning no tax dollars are involved. Often they will provide books, transportation vouchers, and other financial support, in turn requiring students to meet regularly with their counselors. Some schools are offering partial or full ride need-based tuition reimbursement, but as you can imagine competition is high. Community colleges can be an excellent place to start, especially for students uncertain about their interests and commitment.

FWIW, I attended graduate school at two of the schools on that list, and I teach at a school very much on the other end of the spectrum, so I've seen both sides of it.